r11co Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Because of things kicking off elsewhere in this and other fora, and the distinct possibility of certain watches being passed off as having one type of movement when what they have bears no relation to the description whatsoever, I am sure that there are owners of ultimate Planet Oceans who ordered and paid for it to have an ETA2824 movement who may now be thinking that they wouldn't know if the watch actually had the Asian movement described by certain dealers as 2824-2 (which bears little resemblance to the real 2824 and is actually much closer in design to typical cheap Asian movements we are used to in reps, which I will explain shortly). Well, here is how to tell without having to remove the caseback. Unscrew the crown and hand-wind the watch a little. If your movement is ETA then the winder will ratchet in both directions as you would expect. If your movement is the Asian the winder will ratchet in one direction only and spin freely the other. I discovered this yesterday when I was asked to check over a uPO 'lite' an acquaintance had bought from one of our cartel dealers (despite my misgivings....). Externally the watch is identical in almost every detail to my ETA uPO, the only visual difference being the date font, but without something to compare it to most buyers will not be able to rely conclusively on that as a tell. Notwithstanding the fact that this person paid only $17 less for his watch than I paid a non-cartel dealer for mine, this little discovery about the operation of this movement makes me call into question its description as a 2824-2. Now, I haven't heard of anyone being mis-sold an Asian uPO as an ETA and no-one has yet reported such a thing in the forum, so I present this information purely so that owners can put their mind at rest. However, I think it opens up another issue about movement representation in general by the cartel dealers who we already know will mis-name a product to make it more appealing. It does not function the same way as a 2824 except insofar as it has the same beat, but to suggest that this justifies the description is a bit like suggesting that because an articulated lorry has the same horsepower as a Ferrari then they are the same. This movement looks and feels like a faster beat version of the DG2813 I just bought to replace the dead movement in PAW - it even carries the same markings (WO under the balance wheel). Take a look. Here is a stock photo of the DG2813 from the people I bought it from... and the uPO lite movement.... Ignore the shape of the rotor (which has been clearly cut to mimic the shape of the ETA rotor) and look at all the other details. This Asian movement described as 2824 looks nothing like the 'Asian 2824' The Zigmeister did a breakdown of (which IMO deserves to carry the number 2824). This movement is a Miyota copy ie. a copy of a Japanese Citizen movement, but that doesn't sound nearly as nice as the completely false 'Asia copy ETA' description now, does it?!! Don't get me wrong - it's a half way decent movement, but it ain't what they are saying it is. Not even close.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRG Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Shocking. Looks like a DG8413M.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Well spotted. That is exactly what it is. Oh, hang on - it can't be. Us experts know nothing. Well, let's have a look... The bad news for anyone contemplating a movement swap to ETA is that the hand set will not be compatible. The good news though is that complete replacement movements are readily available. Just don't order anything called '2824' though....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRG Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I don't know the spec of this movment, is it 28,800? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 The bad news for anyone contemplating a movement swap to ETA is that the hand set will not be compatible. The good news though is that complete replacement movements are readily available. Just don't order anything called '2824' though....... You may be able to upgrade it to a Genuine Miyota 8215 movement, it's a real workhorse. Unlike the other part of the horse being used in the adverstising... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportsterRider Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Good info! Does anyone have any information about the DG8413M? Is it a good movement? (I've had mixed luck with the DG2813, but overall I think they're an 'okay' movement) Also the 'copy' 2824 that I've seen is actually a Selita SW200, which IS a Swiss movement (or at the very least a Swiss company), it's just not an ETA movement. Legit brands, like Invicta, are starting to use these in place of the 2824. So far, the majority of them seem to perform pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Good info! Does anyone have any information about the DG8413M? Is it a good movement? (I've had mixed luck with the DG2813, but overall I think they're an 'okay' movement) I think the DG series are "OK" movements, if price alone is a deciding factor, they run in the $14-20 range...for a bit more money, I would replace the DG with a Genuine Miyota, since I think the Miyota is a much better quality movement. The Selita is a good movement, I have seen a number of them, and they appear to be fine. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakie360 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 wow, very interesting. good find! i had one question...what do you mean by ratchet? Can you be more detailed about how to tell. I think i might have an Asian when i was told i was sold a ETA. Because of things kicking off elsewhere in this and other fora, and the distinct possibility of certain watches being passed off as having one type of movement when what they have bears no relation to the description whatsoever, I am sure that there are owners of ultimate Planet Oceans who ordered and paid for it to have an ETA2824 movement who may now be thinking that they wouldn't know if the watch actually had the Asian movement described by certain dealers as 2824-2 (which bears little resemblance to the real 2824 and is actually much closer in design to typical cheap Asian movements we are used to in reps, which I will explain shortly). Well, here is how to tell without having to remove the caseback. Unscrew the crown and hand-wind the watch a little. If your movement is ETA then the winder will ratchet in both directions as you would expect. If your movement is the Asian the winder will ratchet in one direction only and spin freely the other. I discovered this yesterday when I was asked to check over a uPO 'lite' an acquaintance had bought from one of our cartel dealers (despite my misgivings....). Externally the watch is identical in almost every detail to my ETA uPO, the only visual difference being the date font, but without something to compare it to most buyers will not be able to rely conclusively on that as a tell. Notwithstanding the fact that this person paid only $17 less for his watch than I paid a non-cartel dealer for mine, this little discovery about the operation of this movement makes me call into question its description as a 2824-2. Now, I haven't heard of anyone being mis-sold an Asian uPO as an ETA and no-one has yet reported such a thing in the forum, so I present this information purely so that owners can put their mind at rest. However, I think it opens up another issue about movement representation in general by the cartel dealers who we already know will mis-name a product to make it more appealing. It does not function the same way as a 2824 except insofar as it has the same beat, but to suggest that this justifies the description is a bit like suggesting that because an articulated lorry has the same horsepower as a Ferrari then they are the same. This movement looks and feels like a faster beat version of the DG2813 I just bought to replace the dead movement in PAW - it even carries the same markings (WO under the balance wheel). Take a look. Here is a stock photo of the DG2813 from the people I bought it from... and the uPO lite movement.... Ignore the shape of the rotor (which has been clearly cut to mimic the shape of the ETA rotor) and look at all the other details. This Asian movement described as 2824 looks nothing like the 'Asian 2824' The Zigmeister did a breakdown of (which IMO deserves to carry the number 2824). This movement is a Miyota copy ie. a copy of a Japanese Citizen movement, but that doesn't sound nearly as nice as the completely false 'Asia copy ETA' description now, does it?!! Don't get me wrong - it's a half way decent movement, but it ain't what they are saying it is. Not even close.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratedzeus Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 erm?? I read the text 3 times now and don't get it. Is the asiann clone of the eta 2824 that is sold atm not the same as the one that was reviewed by The Zigmeister? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Is the asiann clone of the eta 2824 that is sold atm not the same as the one that was reviewed by The Zigmeister? Exactly! The Asian Clone reviewed by The Zigmeister is the Selita, not the Cheap Miyota Copy that Josh and Andy are now MISREPRESENTING as a 2824 clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratedzeus Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 another little white lie??? did they change the movement in the watch or where did The Zigmeister get his movement from..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadog13 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 hey guys... with all this wrong rappresentation of movements...I am lucky that I bought a PAM027 with ETA2892-A2 movement from Eddie (the watch still didn't reach me - and one month has passed) so hopefully the mvt will be that one...when I get it the first thing is that I'll bring it to the watchsmith for inspection...because at this time I DON'T BELEIVE ANY DEALER.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
who Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Good job on the discovery guys!! Since the storm start I can sense more and more members will open their watches and check to see what they really got inside. This type of Misrepresenting is getting scary and worst than imagine if a few more case (on different model) like this keep being discover. In this case here.... someone want to buy a 45mmPO but the price of ETA one is too high which he/she cannot afford it. Then he see a cheaper version being offer (if I'm right, only TWO dealers has the lite version) but equipped with "Asian COPY of eta 2824". At first the buyer has doubt about this copy movement, he go to do some homework and read The Zigmeister's review about the exact movement he see on dealers' website which give him more confident about it as a result he/she order the Lite version PO Like another member just mentioned.....where did The Zigmeister get that "real" Asian copy 2424"? I hope it wasn't sent by any dealers and try to use some of our most honor member(s) to cheat on buyers. We need to propose a complete reformation in the rep community before all the bad tactic spread like cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 My review of the movement labled "Clone or Asian 2824" was from a Submariner. It was sold as having this "Clone" movement in it, and it was the Selita SW 200 model. The one shown here clearly is NOT a SW200, but then again, the Omega Aqua Terra has been identified as having a Seagull 2892 COPY in it, that was months ago, but if you surf the sites, it's still listed as an ETA...go figure... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Like another member just mentioned.....where did Ziggy get that "real" Asian copy 2424"? I hope it wasn't sent by any dealers and try to use some of our most honor member(s) to cheat on buyers. If memory serves me well, the Copy 2824 Selita movement was bought from River. I am not certain of this 100%, but it was not a set up by any of the dealers here. A member bought it, and I had posted that I would service one of these and review it for the members on my tab, to whoever was the first to send me one. The member who contacted me first got his serviced... I think the fact I did a positive review of a COPY 2824, has simply allowed someone to use this term liberally, and maybe use the fact that I did a favorable review of it, as a way to sell it...is this a good thing? Not in my opinion, since the movement shown here is not what has been identified as a Copy 2824. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
who Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 It is good to know it was NOT a set up. The Zigmeister, I'm so sorry to see this thing happened. Some people think they can get a free ride and take advantage from your review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratedzeus Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Wow. But didn't some receive a PO that was sold to him as an ETA and nearly fooled rbj69? Now we could think hey, they sent him a eta copy by accident...... but the copy of the eta which they sell for 128$ looks completely different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
who Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Wow. But didn't some receive a PO that was sold to him as an ETA and nearly fooled rbj69? Now we could think hey, they sent him a eta copy by accident...... but the copy of the eta which they sell for 128$ looks completely different? AFAIK, there's only 1 case can be found so far and it could be by accident since many members reported they got Swiss eta inside. We need more sample to built a case and I think each case should based on specific "Movement" that listed on dealers' website and not just the watch model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finisterre Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Hmmmmm. When I wind my Ult PO anti-clockwise it clicks solidly and repeatedly. When I wind clockwise, I wouldn't say it spins freely - It has resistance and makes a kinda scraping noise. Whaddya reckon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
who Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Hmmmmm. When I wind my Ult PO anti-clockwise it clicks solidly and repeatedly. When I wind clockwise, I wouldn't say it spins freely - It has resistance and makes a kinda scraping noise. Whaddya reckon? I just try it on my u.Po. It has resistance when I wind it clockwise but feel more freely (and with constance click sound) when i turn it counter-clockwise. Pretty much just like you describe and my U.PO has been examined to ensure Swiss eta inside. hope that help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cskent69 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I am all confused now. Sorry for my ignorance. But this is a picture of the movement in the PO from one of our dealers. Are we saying that this is not an ETA? It has 2824 engraved in it. Or are we saying that the watch does not actually come with this in it - and someone does a swaparoo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonz1000 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I am all confused now. Sorry for my ignorance. But this is a picture of the movement in the PO from one of our dealers. Are we saying that this is not an ETA? It has 2824 engraved in it. Or are we saying that the watch does not actually come with this in it - and someone does a swaparoo? That's what i like to know 2......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I am all confused now. Sorry for my ignorance. But this is a picture of the movement in the PO from one of our dealers. Are we saying that this is not an ETA? It has 2824 engraved in it. Or are we saying that the watch does not actually come with this in it - and someone does a swaparoo? The one in your picture is an ETA. The one in the first post is identified as a "CLONE 2824", which it is not, it's a DG something or other, not a SW200, which is the Clone 2824. Don't even get me started on the Lemania 1874 copy, or the Unitas movements...why can't they just get it right, it's not that hard to do... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 And let's not forget, The Zigmeister likes Josh, as he has bought various watches from Josh in the past, so I don't think this is just people that are out there to try to get to Josh and Andrew. But it is getting scary. Good thing is that at least I think I am handy enough to open the cases, I think. So I am going to inspect all movements from now on as well. Thanks everyone for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratedzeus Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 So... which movements would fit the Asia ETA clones PO 45,5mm cases and hands? Miyota 8215? OR any other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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