Perhaps it's just me . . .

[Guest TTK]

@TJ...et al......I'm not going to rant anymore on the rights or wrongs of what has transpired....it's there for everyone to see......most people have their own thoughts......I have mine...which are based on acquired information.....that I am not going into too deeply here......suffice to say there is only one thing to do......!

There is absolutely no point in BANNING the concerned parties........neither would it do any good to suspend them for a month.....the cumulative effect of any of these courses of action would be detrimental to the board and also cause friction between supporters and objectors......disharmony all round....and we don't need that....what we need is to heal the wounds and make sure that we don't suffer ..the action that should be taken is very simple......and effective....!

The Admin of this board has no legal or moral obligation to 'punish' the concerned parties for whatever transgression.......any item that was misdescribed was sold OFF THIS BOARD AND NOT ON IT.......they were sold on the websites that the dealers own personally......they weren't advertised here......so we....and Admin have no right to lay down conditions or make demands on these dealers and the representations they make on their websites...the Admin here have no more ability to reign in the activities of Swissluxurywatches or Replicascamcenter et ……but conversely Admin does have absolute authority and ability to ensure the behavior of active dealers within the forum…!

Where Admin does have a responsibility is to the members of the board.......the mission statement and objectives of this board were to offer guidance and subsequently a measure of protection against scammers......those objectives are still the same and shouldn't usurped by any dealer who simply wishes to impose his terms and conditions on the board.

The best way to achieve those objectives are to lay out and vigorously enforce a clearly defined set or rules for every dealer on the board.

1. All dealers to remain active and committed to this board must advertise their items for sale specifically on this board.

2. All adverts should be clearly described and meet the advertising parameters as laid out by Admin.

3. All adverts must carry a price correct photographs of the item and contact information which is restricted to e-mail or PM....unambiguous information must not be posted...!

4. Absolutely NO hot linking to a dealers website.....the board has no control over external websites and cannot therefore offer guidance to any member regarding the website.

5. If a dealer wishes to make a member aware that he has a website......the information should be supplied via e-mail or PM only....no comments on the board regarding external websites....same rule applies to members......members should not be allowed to provide that information....if a new member requires website info...all he has to do is click on the dealer who is advertising in the dealer section and send him a PM. or an e-mail via the board ...asking for further information or contact him via his advert....!

This board should be a safe haven for the members and Admin's responsibility should be primarily towards the membership........!

These are my thoughts......!

We need to act together and ensure that we do not have further instances of this nature.....!

[freddy333]

A few observations --

I have not followed the entire 'Cartel' thread (life is too short to beat dead horses after they have been beaten into glue), but both sides have their good points. Overall, however, I think TTK's very brief post earlier in this thread got it right. In addition, I think that if you do not like the tone of a thread, drop it and either start something more positive (a review or mod tutorial would be more useful I think) or re-read some of Ziggy's wonderfully instructive articles.

After more than 20 years of collecting rep watches, I think I have seen it all. Crooked dealers who demanded all payment by Western Union or cash and then delivered either nothing or a watch that had little if anything to do with the descriptions and photos they provided. Honest dealers who sold crummy reps and vice versa. The 'Grade 1 Swiss' dealers that sold regular reps with $1,000 or more price tags and photos stolen from other rep dealers. You name it and I have probably seen it over the years.

I was there (in the mid 80's) when the first wave of reps started hitting the market with solid crowns (it was quite an improvement not to have the coronet glued on to a generic crown), reliable Swiss (ETA) movements that could actually be serviced with off the shelf parts, and real stainless steel cases decorated with real gold plating (as opposed to gold paint over cheap pig metal). And now, for the first time, we are seeing reps (like some of the modern stainless steel 7750 Daytona models) that are so good -- visually and functionally -- that I have to make not one but three or more trips to a Rolex dealer to even begin to spot the inaccuracies. And, even then, the differences are so minute that the rep would fool all but the most knowledgeable watch hobbyist or watchmaker. And what is even more amazing is that the price some dealers here are charging for these remarkable Daytonas is the same as what I paid for the best reps available 20 years ago, and those things were laughable by today's standards of accuracy and function. So I do not understand how anyone can complain about reps being "so expensive"? I do not understand the basis for this complaint.

And when you take into account the degree of customer service from dealers like TTK (who recently agreed to manage a group purchase of MBWs), Andrew and Joshua, well, I can only say that I wish some of the gen watch makers like Rolex treated (reasonable) customers half as well. Of course, when a dealer is drop-shipping products and the factories change the specs on them, mistakes (which may be seen by less knowledgeable newbies as purposeful rip-offs) can and do occur. But my experience has been that most of the dealers here are willing to check out the customer's claim and will usually try to do whatever they can to make the customer happy if he finds out that the watches being shipped do differ from his descriptions of them. At least that has been my experience with most dealers here.

But, like anyone else, a dealer may be alot less willing to work with a customer who takes an aggressive stance from the beginning. It is just common sense. If you receive a defective or incorrect watch from a dealer, let the dealer know what the problem is (include a good, but brief explanation of the problem or difference (and a couple of moderately sized photos showing the difference or problem always help parse any possible language barriers) and then give the dealer a chance to provide a resolution. Return shipping charges, of course, are always an area of contention (personally, I feel that if a watch is defective or wrong upon delivery, the dealer should cover all return costs, but that is just me) and different dealers handle this differently. But I still think that most of the reps being sold here are priced reasonably, so I am willing to spend an extra $20 or so on an *occasional* return. It just goes with the territory of buying and selling contraband goods.

I think that only when the dealer fails or refuses to make good on the deal, should a buyer make the problem public here. That just seems like common sense and simple decency to me. Mao was right when he said (I am paraphrasing), 'You can catch alot more flies with honey than you can with a flyswatter.'

EDIT: I should mention (based on quick DNS checks I have done of dealers' domain names) that multiple dealers' websites may actually be operated by the same person or group. I will not mention names (since I have received consistently good service from them), but this might account for the apparent 'cartel' practices.

[TwoTone]

Good thing that child isn't an RT supporter; now that would be frightening!

I bet Pug could add some convincing fangs and make a poster fit to print! What a GREAT pic!

Bill

Ya know Bill, there are other forms of punishment as well...

[TJGladeRaider]

Ya know Bill, there are other forms of punishment as well...

Now that is freakin priceless!

Years ago, with my first child, before I really understood the way things are these days, I was at a PTA meeting and Jeremy's teacher was telling me what a wonderfully well behaved child he was. In my best native Appalachian, I said, "A course he is, I got me a field trainin collar at home, an if'n he acts up, I ken light his little eyes up frum across da room."

The poor woman looked like she was going to come unglued. I'd have probably gotten arrested if my ex-wife hadn't piped up.

Bill

[Tim]

@TJ...et al......I'm not going to rant anymore on the rights or wrongs of what has transpired....it's there for everyone to see......most people have their own thoughts......I have mine...which are based on acquired information.....that I am not going into too deeply here......suffice to say there is only one thing to do......!

etc.etc.etc.etc

I think this makes a lot of sense. Now we should just do it and close down the conversation. Problem identified. Problem discussed. What seems a fair resolution to me should finish it off and we as a group move on.

/Tim

[TJGladeRaider]

I think this makes a lot of sense. Now we should just do it and close down the conversation. Problem identified. Problem discussed. What seems a fair resolution to me should finish it off and we as a group move on.

/Tim

While I welcome your opinion, and I agree that the death of this entire collection of threads is long overdue, conversations generally die when the people involved have nothing further to say. To assert that this thread should be closed because "what seems fair to you should finish it off" seems wildly presumptuous to me.

We don't generally do that around here without a compelling reason.

Bill

[hambone]

You amaze me Richard, I just love that care and concern you evince for your fellow man.

You have evidently read thru a list of commentaries proffered by the kind of people who have made this list worth visiting, yet you have the temerity to label it a "group hug," and explain why you feel it necessary to go right on with the same tired trash.

OK, you want the solution - I'll give it to you. It's simple, and it has been right here all along, but I know it isn't what people like you want, which is why I am so damn fed up with this.

What do YOU have to complain about Richard? I really don't need, or want, to hear your take - or anyone else's - on what a lowlife this dealer is, or that dealer was, unless they screwed YOU.

We have a dealer review section. Anyone who has a claim can explain their side, they have the soap box, and we read what is written there. When a person states a legitimate [censored], they get support, and when the members support somoeone's grievance, it generall gets appropriately resolved.

But, as many of those paying attention have observed, a review of that section suggests that the dealers you are whining about are about as popular as they have always been.

Righting wrongs is not what you really want is it Richard?

You want to be a player, you want to be a wheel, you try to organize this and that, with no particular success that I can see, because the truth is, nobody like me is ever going to buy into one of your group leverage schemes - I'm a grown man, I understand how things work, and I begrudge nobody who supplies value and service a profit.

Joshua and Andrew did not create their reputations overnight. They became a dominant force on these boards because they EARNED it, and they EARNED it by delivering a quality product at a reasonable price, and going the last mile to help their customers, day after day, month after month, for a long time before you got here. I am proud to see that I am not the only one determined to see that we remember that.

Now, I find myself conflicted when I see a well meaning people complaining about "cartels," because they are not fully aware of all that has gone on.

Once upon a time, popular dealers we all treated as our friends sold fantastic quality reps here at reasonable prices, competing with one another while remaining friends with each other, and with us. As with most things "gentlemanly," there were unwritten rules.

Then came the greedy little trolls who saw a good thing, and in their youth and ignorance thought they could make it a great thing by hustling one friend against the other, and leveraging the best possible price, wringing the last possible drop of profit from our golden geese.

I told you then, and I remind you now, what an asinine thing your effort at price control was, but your position was basically, "business is business."

How's that workin for ya Richard?

The geese got tired of it. Those same dealers got together and said enough is enough - just as any person in business would do, they protected their profit margins. We are here playing, this is a hobby for us, but those guys are in business trying to live and provide for their families.

Guess what kid, you were so right, "business is business," and when ignorant children try to play hard ball with adults they get the bat shoved up their ass.

Now, in my view, what we have here is an effort to trash the icons of this industry, people who have been good to us, and fair with us for a very long time. From their perspective, once greedy little people came along and offered US an opportunity, WE TURNED ON THEM. I didn't go for it, most of us didn't, but what I did not do, and the rest of us did not do, was demand compliance with unwritten rules, come to their defense loudly enough, and [censored] slap greedy foolish children into silence.

I am sorry to say that their most recent behavior has not been entirely above board, but I'm not going to sit here quietly and allow self-serving mutts to blow this out of proportion, and put this chicken before the egg, either. You want to say they misrepresented a watch or two - OK, fine. You want to say they outright lied a time or two, I don't know that I can defend that either, but this didn't happen in a vacuum Richard.

There is another side to that same coin - and I mention this because I don't want people to think I am pointing an accusing finger at Pugwash. I am not. He did what he did because we (and by that I point an accusing finger at myself and so many of us) became so defensive of our pet dealers that they could screw a noob (or most anyone else) with impunity - Pugwash spoke up because WE allowed this to reach the point that those who should have dared not.

This isn't my board, I don't define the rules for this forum, but we do get to vote and express ourselves. I say, it's time for the Admin to shut this crap down and require that the members of this forum follow the WRITTEN rules, with certain new provisos.

1. If YOU have a complaint, voice it, you owe it to yourself and the rest of us. Tell us what YOUR dealer did to YOU regarding YOUR watch. Tell it politely as you would present it to the court of peer opinion, and give us an opportunity to fix it.

2. Everyone should read every complaint and judge it on its merits - no matter who the dealer is. If their complaint bespeaks a lack of understanding about reps, a polite explanation will suffice. Abusive, demeaning responses should be dealt with as a serious matter.

3. If a complaint appears to have merit, the forum should REQUIRE a reply. If required, the refusal to respond should mean no dealer privileges.

4. If the complaint OBVIOUSLY has SERIOUS merit, but the dealer chooses to remain an ass in the face of group opinion, the forum administrator should deal with it, but MORE IMPORTANTLY, neither the forum, nor the administrator should be expected to resolve all issues - it is not always going to be clear who is right, but let's not miss the forest for the trees. Some wrongs may not be righted if the facts are not clear, but keep in mind cumulative effect . . . a battery of unclear "he said, she said," complaints,m creates enough smoke to tell us where the fires are.

5. If YOU do not have a complaint, STFU.

That's my .02, humbly submitted for whatever it is worth.

Bill

Excellent post TJ. And yes my enthusiasm for this hobby that I have enjoyed so much as waned quite a bit in the last week beacuse of the ugly nastiness that has been spewed by many in this forum. It's shameful really. It is a good thing to see Admin putting their foot down about people being so vile in this forum. Especially dealers. It makes no sense whatsoever to me that a dealer who is here to provide the forum members with the goods to engage their hobby can pen such hatefulness to his clientele. Even if things do get better, I have lost my appettite for awhile.

[Richard Tracy]

Excellent post TJ. And yes my enthusiasm for this hobby that I have enjoyed so much as waned quite a bit in the last week beacuse of the ugly nastiness that has been spewed by many in this forum. It's shameful really. It is a good thing to see Admin putting their foot down about people being so vile in this forum. Especially dealers. It makes no sense whatsoever to me that a dealer who is here to provide the forum members with the goods to engage their hobby can pen such hatefulness to his clientele. Even if things do get better, I have lost my appettite for awhile.

... -----> ----->

[Guest TTK]

It is a good thing to see Admin putting their foot down about people being so vile in this forum. Especially dealers. It makes no sense whatsoever to me that a dealer who is here to provide the forum members with the goods to engage their hobby can pen such hatefulness to his clientele.

Don't know what thread you've been following.....but the recent topics weren't about dealers being vile....it was about dealers lying to their clients......and clubbing together to fix prices and drive out competition.......now if I was more astute.....I would interpret your comments as a thickly veiled reference to someone who is not on your Xmas card list.....love the pantaloons BTW.....

[Richard Tracy]

Don't know what thread you've been following.....but the recent topics weren't about dealers being vile....it was about dealers lying to their clients......and clubbing together to fix prices and drive out competition.......now if I was more astute.....I would interpret your comments as a thickly veiled reference to someone who is not on your Xmas card list.....love the pantaloons BTW.....

Exactly.... I don't know why some people bother to comment, if they don't take the time, to read the script..

[hambone]

All 25 plus pages of that sad thread were read by me and if some people did not posses such limited and narrow minds they could see what was really being said, and what it was I was attempting to say, but I am sure that by and large the majority of readers here figured it out. As far as "thickly veiled references" go, well I guess that little angry men hiding in third world countries can taken all the pot shots they want from their sweaty little cubby holes.

[Guest TTK]

@hambone........I'm hiding.......yeah..... in plain sight......!

Can you see this.......ABC 10?

If you can.....then realise .....i's just alpha - numeric text on a screen...........nobody loses an arm or a leg or dies of cancer when they see this alpha-numeric text.......regardless of how it's constructed.........it isn't The Ring.....!

You need to lighten up......and get on with life........if you take everything so seriously...like thinking that people are "hiding"......especially in a 3rd world country......truth is...your country has all the same problems as this country.......homelessness....lawlessness.....corruption.....paedophilia.....a higher murder rate........bad weather.......etc etc.....so don't be running away with any grand notions that you're superior because you live in a democracy and have lots of retail outlets.....Benihana and Starbucks / Pizza Hut / KFC and lots of golf courses are found all over this 3rd world country....just as they are in your 3rd world country.........so your weekends are no different from mine and thousands of others.....,,this country has all the same benefits your country has.......it's time to step back from the PC......and avoid the pot.....err sorry.....slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...they're hitting the mark every time.....give them a smaller target......!

Edited April 2, 2007 by TTK