TJGladeRaider Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I have really enjoyed this peculiar hobby, and I have enjoyed the people involved, some of whom I have met and liked a lot. Unfortunately, I feel that something is changing. there is a profound shift in attitudes within the group, it is hard to put my finger on, but the environment feels much different. I don't know what it is, or why, but I am not enjoying this like I used to. I see legions of complaints directed at dealers I have done a lot of business with - people who have always enjoyed the very best of reputations. I don't understand why, and it is especially odd to me as most of those who do appear to have done business with these people seem to be as happy as they have always been. I do not suggest that the complaints have had no merit - we all know better than that. At what point though is enough, enough? Is it appropriate to keep beating the dead horse forever? I will concede that I might . . . but only if it was my horse. Why do people continue to lament long dead issues, that they were not the victim of? Further, I am considerably less troubled by content than by form. I do not speak Chinese, or any other foreign language, and I do not begin to understand Asian culture other than to have a vague belief that their culture is significantly different than my own. When I see Asian people who have managed to master my language, and seem to understand my culture, I respect and appreciate that. If I had accomplished that in my life, I would feel proud of myself, and justifiably so I should think. When I see such a person make a good faith, gentlemanly effort to respond to the issues and concerns raised by forum members, I respect that too, but when I see an apparently honest effort to engage in rational discourse met with vulgar profanity and abuse, what I see through their eyes makes me ashamed. I admit to being plain spoken, and I can be as profane and abusive as anyone under the right circumstances, but I cannot abide that. Perhaps the general problem could be ameliorated by merely changing the forum name to Counterfeit Watch Group. It seems that many of the new, strident voices we are hearing so much from of late have lost sight of the fact that, while what most of us are doing is legal (depending upon where we are), what the dealers are doing is not. This, "I want," "I expect," "I demand," but, "Hey, don't come crying to me about your problems and issues," mentality that seems to be taking over bespeaks an unreasonable immaturity that makes me uncomfortable. To those people, I would just say, "Stand by boys and girls, unless I am very much mistaken, things are going to get worse - much worse." When reps were cheap fake obvious imitations, that was one thing. When some sources had good quality reps, but the norm was cheap junk, that was another. The proliferation of truly excellent reps these days is a threat to the existence of the gen manufacturers, the nuisance has become deadly, and I do not expect them to tolerate that, and dealing with it is a matter of money. Money buys lobbyists, lobbyists buy votes, votes buy political power and political power can force or buy concessions. Give the Chinese something they want, and the world's largest supplier of reps will evaporate overnight. Finally, while I know my comments will be taken as being defensive of one "side" over the other, that is not the case. I merely wish to speak for my side, from my perspective, and address the issues that trouble me. I am not young, I have seen a lot of life, and I have observed a lot of human nature. Consequently, I don't expect much, but I have seen some real class, character and integrity around here from people I have enjoyed getting to know. I hope that we can one day get back to that. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplehd Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 AGREED. This hobby to me is not what is used to be - FUN. Seems like it's going into another direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Very good post, but as Timm said, it won't get the feeback and follow on commentary that it should. I too need a break, and will be signing off for two weeks in April...I just need to step back and get away from it all for a while. Hopefully this will be a turning point on the forum, and we will move towards a more positive direction, not a downward slide as has happened in the past. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Very good post, but as Timm said, it won't get the feeback and follow on commentary that it should. I too need a break, and will be signing off for two weeks in April...I just need to step back and get away from it all for a while. Hopefully this will be a turning point on the forum, and we will move towards a more positive direction, not a downward slide as has happened in the past. RG Yes, I am sure you need a break, if for no other reason than I want your hands nice and steady as you relume that new stack of MBWs I just sent you! Lord, you do wonderful work. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Yes, I am sure you need a break, if for no other reason than I want your hands nice and steady as you relume that new stack of MBWs I just sent you! Lord, you do wonderful work. Bill That is going to be Saturday afternoon's task, after I finish servicing an El Primero, they should be good and steady by then... Thanks for the kind words. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Hi Bill, good post on this. and I can see your concerns. I am Asian. I think the "rep" world in general will be hard to shut down, even if US is able to provide a ton of money to China. The profit is too good to pass up, and the market is there. I think something can be done, but it will be shutdown completely, kind of like RIAA versus the downloaders. They can modify the control, but it will be overall, hard to take down. I have participated in some discussion on that thread Bill, and I kind of just wanted to make sure that dealer can make sure that they can deliver what they promised. I am not talking like similar stuff, even that, you can make a legitimate case for it. But if one day, I paid for the good money for a swiss 7750, but the dealer knowingly put in an Asian 7750, and then refused that they made a mistake and refused to address it, then I would have a problem. A far stretched analogy can be made for MBWs, I would have a problem if I know that I pay for a 2836, and ended up getting a really cheap Asian movement, for a watch that costs over $400.00. It has taken some weird turns in that thread, but I do hope we stay on course, and come up with some sort of uniformed guide of some sort, so we will all be better down the line....and that's my perception of this whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportsterRider Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Well said, Bill! Funny thing is, I was getting a similar feeling while trolling through that thread yesterday. I agree with the spirit of that 25 page thread, but the execution had me thinking that maybe I need to step away from this for a while. It's supposed to be a hobby, a pastime, a diversion, whatever you want to call it. When it gets to where folks start slinging profanities at each other over a replica watch hobby, I believe it's time to step back for a bit. Good post, Bill... SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricky Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 (edited) My oh my.... I know what you guys are talking about. Thing is that I'm not into reps anymore since quite a long time now.... I guess the main reason why I'm still around the boards is that I've got to know a lot of really great guys during the time I spent. The other reason is that I'm still a watch geek of course... only I came to the conclusion that gen watches are the better way to spend your money - so far it was the right decision. I'm mostly seen at TRC now, RWG is simply too fast for me I kinda like the pace of TRC, that's how it should be. Some of the things said in the "Cartel"-Thread shouldn't be said though.... I guess you're right about that Bill. Peace! Edited March 29, 2007 by bricky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I think we all need to give it a rest for a while. In the meantime, cooler heads will be working behind the scenes to rectify the situation, solve the problems and work out an acceptable approach for all concerned. I've great confidence in the people who will be negotiating with the dealers on our behalf, and if an agreement can be reached, it will be through their efforts. It's clear that there are some serious issues be worked out. For better or for worse, the posts have served to define them and to demonstrate that many members are quite serious about their revendications. These issues are not going to simply disappear, and the tactic of dealers waiting for the storm to blow over won't work this time. But the dust needs to settle a bit, and ruffled feathers smoothed on both sides. More complaining and criticism - whether justified or not - is not going to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pix Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 (...)When it gets to where folks start slinging profanities at each other over a replica watch hobby, I believe it's time to step back for a bit. Further, I am considerably less troubled by content than by form. I can't agree more ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Great post as usual Bill. Let's have some fun for a change. Watches... anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pix Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Great post as usual Bill. Let's have some fun for a change. Watches... anyone? YEAH Waiting for A MB Timewalker GMT from River, a VC Overseas from Brandon and... er, some cheap gen from Ebay ! >>LINKY>>> Some things in life are bad They can really make you mad Other things just make you swear and curse. When you're chewing on life's gristle Don't grumble, give a whistle And this'll help things turn out for the best... And...always look on the bright side of life... Always look on the light side of life... If life seems jolly rotten There's something you've forgotten And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing. When you're feeling in the dumps Don't be silly chumps Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing. And...always look on the bright side of life... Always look on the light side of life... For life is quite absurd And death's the final word You must always face the curtain with a bow. Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow. So always look on the bright side of death Just before you draw your terminal breath Life's a piece of [censored] When you look at it Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true. You'll see it's all a show Keep 'em laughing as you go Just remember that the last laugh is on you. And always look on the bright side of life... Always look on the right side of life... (Come on guys, cheer up!) Always look on the bright side of life... Always look on the bright side of life... (Worse things happen at sea, you know.) Always look on the bright side of life... (I mean - what have you got to lose?) (You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!) Always look on the right side of life... :bangin: SING IT ALL !!! :group: :group: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 That is going to be Saturday afternoon's task, after I finish servicing an El Primero, they should be good and steady by then... Thanks for the kind words. RG Are you telling me that you can relume five MBWs and change the crowns/tubes in an afternoon?!?! Although I have made this point time and again elsewhere, I don't care if you can do it in five minutes with a twitch of your nose, payment for value received is worth the same to me no matter what your costs or time invested -- I just want to be clear in my mind that I understand you. I could easily imagine you swapping the crowns and tubes in a day as I could probably do that myself - I just cannot get the job done to where they function so smoothly as you do. The lume job completely baffles me. I have examined your work under a loop, and I see what you've done, but even if I could apply that stuff that precisely, the effort to do one watch would wear me out for the day. BTW, you may have noticed that I posted some time ago that the DRSD you did for me was keeping impossibly perfect time. This reminded me to check the atomic clock. The MBW DRSD is now 4 secs fast since whatever day it was that I posted that. I look forward to getting my watches back. Those who like the no-glow vintagized look are surely entitled to like what they like, but I absolutely love the way these things come out - and my boat is almost repaired! Ciao, Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Great post. I agree totally with the sentiments. Sometimes it isn't what's being said, but the way it's being said. I happen to agree totally with the false advertisements on movements argument. Totally think the Cartel angle was pushed to far. BS! Nobody mentions the thousands of watches our members have been HAPPY with. More important to get the Lynch Mob in high gear. I love reasoned discourse............just didn't find much of it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Great post Bill and I alsso sense the vibe of late. Spring fever, perhaps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Great post. I agree totally with the sentiments. Sometimes it isn't what's being said, but the way it's being said. I happen to agree totally with the false advertisements on movements argument. Totally think the Cartel angle was pushed to far. BS! Nobody mentions the thousands of watches our members have been HAPPY with. Ditto. I'm wearing my 45mm PO on my wrist right now and it's amazing. 2 years ago we couldn't have DREAMED of such rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratedzeus Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I have my shitty SMP right here, which stops if the second hand is on the left side on the dial and you shake it too hard for a second, which has no lume on the dial... and I love it too! Group hug! hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rek001 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I agree with you 100% TJ, and thank you for this post. Honestly, I don't know what to think about this situation. I find the whole thing confusing, depressing, ugly, and I'm sorry, but I'm still incredulous at some of the things our dealers are acccused of. I wonder how this is all going to end up. In the meantime, I'm thinking of contacting Ms. King about her new fantasy SS 50th Anniversary GMT Master, with the new case. What do you guys think of this watch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplehd Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Is it me or is it the kind of the stuff that we have been seeing lately and will continue to see that will ultimately destroy our little hobby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionsandtigers Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 i agree as well, which is why i have been somewhat absent for awhile. i had so much fun for the first few months, and so many great interactions with fellow board members, then it just got weird, cant really put my finger on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Manny Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 (edited) Great post. I still enjoy the hobby but find myself more and more turned off by the negative vibe that has seemed to creep in, and not just toward dealers. Hopefully we have worked it out of our systems a bit and a more friendly and enjoyable forum will rise up. Cheers, CM Edited March 29, 2007 by Chicken Manny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshot Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 i agree a lot of the fun seems to have disappeared? maybe we need some new reps? the BCE and steelfish were really the last new reps i can remember and new reps seem to stimulate lots of fun to read posts and reviews and... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Great post. I agree totally with the sentiments. Sometimes it isn't what's being said, but the way it's being said. I happen to agree totally with the false advertisements on movements argument. Totally think the Cartel angle was pushed to far. BS! Nobody mentions the thousands of watches our members have been HAPPY with. More important to get the Lynch Mob in high gear. I love reasoned discourse............just didn't find much of it here. I agree with Bill's sentiments which I think are the result of the forum's focus seemingly shifting away from the watches themselves and toward the dealers and their practices. This place is principally designed to be a virtual hangout for watch enthusiasts with a secondary focus on ancillary matters such as the dealers. , Lately the ancillary has become the primary. Still, I do not agree that have not seen reasoned discourse on the other thread. Sure there were some uncivil posts, but by and large, I thought it took a lot of guts for first pug than edge to speak out the way they did and raise issues which have to surface. The existance of a potential cartel threatens the livlihood of our smaller dealers (who also happen to be our fellow members) which in turn potentially impacts our options as consumers. At least one smaller dealer has told me they were not able to get a particular popular watch because its supply had been cornered by the large dealers. And i had to wait a good 6 weeks to get it from another of the smaller dealers. So there does seem to be evidence of at least a loose affiliation of larger dealers if not a cartel ...to be honest with you, I have suspected as much for a while now. And I cannot honestly tell you that I think it represents anis unethical practice,( I am trying to fiigure that out) but if it does exist, it really should be disclosed. As to the positive feedback from the many happy clients.. it is there... just read the dealer review section I am sorry, I do not mean to pi$$ on the parade, and i agree 25+ pages is excessive. Also agree there was a lot of unnecessary incivility and innuendo that frankly made me wince. But I do not see how the topic itself can be ignored, and I think there is also some good discourse on the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dachshund Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I, like Bill, am a bit older than probably most here and have experienced a lot of life. These things happen, we may not enjoy the thrashings, but as a rule, it is normally better for everyone once the smoke clears. We exist in a fantisy like world here on RWG, TRC, and RWI, but the same things happen in everyday business. Business decisions are made daily, right or wrong, that cause grief to someone, people are fired, contracts are lost, a supplier changes hands and things run amuck, changes are constant and are necessary for the good of the many. I don't post a lot, but I'm on one the two boards off and on most of the day (RWG, TRC) not because I need another watch, but because wheather I'm active in posting or not, I still feel like I am amoung friends. I don't care for the disarray anymore than the next fellow, but it must be delt with as quickly as possible then put behind us so that we can go forward with our hobby and enjoy the board again. Gentelmean and ladies, don't let it get you down, as the old saying goes, time heals all, we'll emerge a stronger more bonded community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I, like Bill, am a bit older than probably most here and have experienced a lot of life. These things happen, we may not enjoy the thrashings, but as a rule, it is normally better for everyone once the smoke clears. We exist in a fantisy like world here on RWG, TRC, and RWI, but the same things happen in everyday business. Business decisions are made daily, right or wrong, that cause grief to someone, people are fired, contracts are lost, a supplier changes hands and things run amuck, changes are constant and are necessary for the good of the many. I don't post a lot, but I'm on one the two boards off and on most of the day (RWG, TRC) not because I need another watch, but because wheather I'm active in posting or not, I still feel like I am amoung friends. I don't care for the disarray anymore than the next fellow, but it must be delt with as quickly as possible then put behind us so that we can go forward with our hobby and enjoy the board again. Gentelmean and ladies, don't let it get you down, as the old saying goes, time heals all, we'll emerge a stronger more bonded community. Very well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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