doubting my crystal....

[robideaux]

i recently ordered a Pam 217 which was advertised as chinese unitas, swiss case, and sapphire. i am beginning to doubt the crystal. anyone else who has the 217 with the chinese movement wanna chime in? i suppose i should stop at my local watchsmith if no one here knows for sure...

[Hari Seldon]

Did the listing for the watch you bought say "synthetic sapphire" or just sapphire crystal?. I fear the former terms is a way that dealers are using to describe mineral crystal. If it's sapphire just say "sapphire." There is no such thing as a natural sapphire used for watch crystals so no differentiation is needed. With that being said, there have been a couple methods described here or at the old RWG about how to tell your crystal. Some say if you hold a sapphire crystal against your skin it will feel cooler than mineral due to conductivity differences or you can drop a little bit of water on the crystal and if it's sapphire it will bead and on mineral it will just stay in one puddle. I don't know if any of these things work or not. I've never tried them. Personally, if it says "synthetic sapphire" I am going to presume it means mineral until the dealers start using the same terms accross the board, which will probably never happen.

Plus, the swiss case thing is nonsense. What does it mean? You know the case was not made in Switzerland. I would be surprised if real Panerai cases were made in Switzerland. Why do so? It's cheaper and still meets the Swiss regulations for "Swiss Made" to do as much production as can be outside of Switzerland where costs are reduced. Only 50% of the COST of a watch must be made in Switzerland to qualify. If you can reduce the cost of everything except the movement for instance to less than 50% of the total then there you go. "Swiss made" watch, made in asia by asians mostly. This is probably not done by the old respected Swiss watchmakers, but I bet Panerai does it.

[Hok]

Did the listing for the watch you bought say "synthetic sapphire" or just sapphire crystal?. I fear the former terms is a way that dealers are using to describe mineral crystal. If it's sapphire just say "sapphire." There is no such thing as a natural sapphire used for watch crystals so no differentiation is needed. With that being said, there have been a couple methods described here or at the old RWG about how to tell your crystal. Some say if you hold a sapphire crystal against your skin it will feel cooler than mineral due to conductivity differences or you can drop a little bit of water on the crystal and if it's sapphire it will bead and on mineral it will just stay in one puddle. I don't know if any of these things work or not. I've never tried them. Personally, if it says "synthetic sapphire" I am going to presume it means mineral until the dealers start using the same terms accross the board, which will probably never happen.

Plus, the swiss case thing is nonsense. What does it mean? You know the case was not made in Switzerland. I would be surprised if real Panerai cases were made in Switzerland. Why do so? It's cheaper and still meets the Swiss regulations for "Swiss Made" to do as much production as can be outside of Switzerland where costs are reduced. Only 50% of the COST of a watch must be made in Switzerland to qualify. If you can reduce the cost of everything except the movement for instance to less than 50% of the total then there you go. "Swiss made" watch, made in asia by asians mostly. This is probably not done by the old respected Swiss watchmakers, but I bet Panerai does it.

put a drop of water on the crystal. if it forms a nice lil' "dome" or "pearl", its sapphire... if not, it'll be just wet.

Edited April 7, 2006 by Hok

[slay]

all watches use synthetic sapphire! real sapphire would be blury and because of that it is not used in watches

[Bignasty]

Here's the Canal Street test. Take a swiss army knife and drag it across the crystal harshly. If it ruins your crystal it is mineral glass. If it doesn't it is sapphire.

Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for you ruining your own watch. Use this test at your own risk.

[dadog13]

it is what i wanted to tell you...

[Hari Seldon]

all watches use synthetic sapphire! real sapphire would be blury and because of that it is not used in watches

That is why I said there is no such thing as a natural sapphire used for watch crystals. And it would hardly be simply "blurry" if so. Sapphire doesn't occur anywhere near clear in nature. At best it can be "marbled" (thee is a better term than that but I can't recall it) with flecks of clear and color throughout, usually green from what I understand for this type. But the expense of using a natural sapphire the size needed for watch crystals would be silly long before the composition of the crystal would matter.

As previous posters have mentioned, the only real DIY way to be sure is try to scratch the crystal with something you know is softer than sapphire (pretty much any household metals, however some carbon blades are very, very hard). But if it is mineral as you seem to think it might be, than your crystal is scratched and you will never see the watch again without your eyes going right to the scratch (okay, that is my opinion due to personal experience). It's up to you, but I wouldn't do it. Having a mineral crystal is not the end of the world but I can understand how it stinks if you were told it was sapphire.

[robideaux]

yes i've read all the tests about how to test if it is sapphire or not. the water drops look just like it does on my other sapphire watches, but i heard that this is unreliable because mineral glass can be polished as smooth as sapphire. i was just wondering if anyone with the same edition 217 knew for sure. it would save me the trouble of potentially scratching my crystal to check. thanks for all of your replies!

[Chronus]

This should be simple enough, as you are testing if the advertising is correct.

Talk to the dealer you bought the watch from, and say you will test the sapphire crystal by trying to scratch it with a normal kitchen knife. If it is a sapphire crystal it won't scratch, in which case you will tell everyone that that particular dealer has the real thing. If it scratches, then he either replaces it with a watch with a sapphire crystal, or gives you a full refund as he has not given you what you paid for.

If the dealer hesitates, then he is unsure (or knows) whether the crystal is sapphire or not.

The test will reveal what it is.

Incidentally, the crystal that is commonly called sapphire in reference to watches, is made of corundum (a synthetic material), and it is 2nd to diamond in terms of hardness.

I was quoted under USD50 by silix-prime to change mineral glass to sapphire crystal for a PAM111H (Asian Unitas) that I got for a friend, and someone he knows worked at an AD and said there is no way a fake would use a genuine sapphire crystal (even though my friend told him it was a rep - no one believe him that it is a rep and it still has a recessed pin - not even in high end watch stores!).

[sssurfer]

someone he knows worked at an AD and said there is no way a fake would use a genuine sapphire crystal

Please would you put me in contact with that AD employee? I have lots of watches to sell to him at very good prices. I'll just leave him judge on whether they are fakes or gens.

BTW:

I can hardly think of anyone using the term "syntetic sapphire" as a synonym for "mineral glass".

Actually, the word "syntethic" is more redundant when referred to glass than to sapphire, and it is therefore more appropriate for sapphire than glass.

Natural sapphire at least does exist, natural glass not.

The simpler test is the fingernail test. Glass sounds more rich in higher harmonics, something like "ping" or "tinnk", while sapphire sounds short and sharp: "tuk" or "tok". I know this is unreliable and subject to issues like the bezel or the teflon ring at the base of the crystal. But on 6 PAM reps (3 sapphire and 3 glass) it worked 100% for me.

By adding together the four non-invasive tests (color, temperature, water drop and fingernail) one can get quite a good idea of which matter he is facing.

But the better test is that from Chronus, IMO. Brilliant. Just a bit biased on dealer's attitude, though.

[Chronus]

Please would you put me in contact with that AD employee? I have lots of watches to sell to him at very good prices. I'll just leave him judge on whether they are fakes or gens.

The guy doesn't work for an AD anymore... maybe you sold him some watches ?

In the old days, reps probably didn't have sapphire crystals, and most people nowadays, when they think rep/fake, think of the cheapie junk you can buy on a street corner!

[that_watch_guy]

Lots of replica makers are using the term "synthetic sapphire" to describe plexiglass. There are pros and cons of using thick plexiglass instead of mineral glass, for one plexiglass doesn't turn green when you view it from an angle like cheap mineral glass does, and plexiglass is probably even cheaper to manufacture. In my experience, most dealers who are selling watches with mineral glass will either say so, or not mention the glass at all. If it says synthetic, it may be plexiglass. I have a Pam111 with a plexiglasscrystal, and it's a fairly new version too, it's really hard to tell just by looking at it.

Edited April 9, 2006 by that_watch_guy

[James Bond]

I have come across a watch dealer who test the "sapphire" with some kind of electronic tester. The light goes Green for "sapphire" and Red for glass. It is VERY expensive to produce dome shape sapphire crystal, most likely your pam217 are using "synthetic sapphire".

BTW: Does it ready matter whether it is sapphire?

[Chronus]

I have come across a watch dealer who test the "sapphire" with some kind of electronic tester. The light goes Green for "sapphire" and Red for glass. It is VERY expensive to produce dome shape sapphire crystal, most likely your pam217 are using "synthetic sapphire".

BTW: Does it ready matter whether it is sapphire?

Sapphire is virtually scratch-proof, though not shatter-proof. Plexiglass and mineral glass will pick up scratches. The genuine watch has a sapphire crystal, so a lot of scratches on the crystal is a pretty obvious giveaway that it's a rep. Apart from anything you probably don't want scratches all over the crystal, making it harder to look at the time.

I would think that if the PAM127 has a genuine sapphire crystal, the same can be used on the 217.

[sssurfer]

It is VERY expensive to produce dome shape sapphire crystal, most likely your pam217 are using "synthetic sapphire".

I feel we should not encourage the use of the words "synthetic sapphire" for anything else than sapphire.

Better we stick on it, else we are likely to end up with a bunch of unconsistent advertisements and we shall also be unable to dispute, in case.

[Chronus]

I feel we should not encourage the use of the words "synthetic sapphire" for anything else than sapphire.

Better we stick on it, else we are likely to end up with a bunch of unconsistent advertisements and we shall also be unable to dispute, in case.

True.

[yt74]

Agreed!

[bres3000]

i recently ordered a Pam 217 which was advertised as chinese unitas, swiss case, and sapphire. i am beginning to doubt the crystal. anyone else who has the 217 with the chinese movement wanna chime in? i suppose i should stop at my local watchsmith if no one here knows for sure...

Here's a Test you could try. It was determined from this test that the subject watch HAD a sapphire crystal.

[Chronus]

Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....