onezero Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 (edited) I recently sold my Fiddy to another RWG member and the information I had given him regarding the piece was as follows - Yep has AR Coated Sapphire Crystal, and Sapphire Crystal caseback too. Real Swiss 6497 Mov't with swan neck dagger. This is identical to what I was told by the dealer I bought it off, however the buyer has taken the watch to his watchmaker who advised that neither the front or back are Sapphire and the movement is not a Genuine ETA movement. I want to make things right with the buyer, can anyone shed some light on this? Will a davidsen sapphire crystal fit properly, and can a Gen. ETA movt be put into it? Or is it a case of refunding in full? Here are some pics of the piece in question. Edited June 18, 2007 by onezero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 It does not sound like you did anything wrong, or tried to mislead the buyer. You were told it had certain things, and now your being told something else, by a "watchmaker"... My suggestion is that you sold it with good intentions, described exactly as it was described to you. You did nothing wrong. How can you verify that this "watchmaker" even exists, or knows what he is talking about? You can't... There are two options as far as I see it: 1. Have the buyer return the watch to you, after you inspect it and make sure it's as you sold it to him, refund the money. 2. Simply say to the buyer, I did not mislead you, I am no expert in determining "sapphire" or genuine "ETA" or whatever... I would not even consider sourcing a new movement, or crystal or whatever, by the time your finished getting the parts, paying someone for the "installation" (if it even took place) etc, your out of pocket the cost of the watch, and the cost of the parts...and way behind in my opinion. I think your being lead down the garden path... By the way, your pictures don't show up. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Your picture links are not working. In any event I think Rob's advice is good. After asking the buyer what method his watchmaker used to determine the authenticity of the sapphire, etc., just have him send it back and then refund his money. But with that said, I'm pretty skeptical that any of the case-backs are really sapphire myself.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onezero Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Thanks for the advice so far. Pics should be working now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepsea Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 (edited) sorry but the movement on the picture is an Asian eta... Edited June 18, 2007 by deepsea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babola Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 (edited) sorry but the movement on the picture is an Asian eta... I wouldn't call it Asian ETA...it may be more Asian than you'd expect from the mov't being sold to you as Swiss - but definitelly not a full Asian. It's the movement we now know much more about these days, especially after The Zigmeister took it appart, and posted a long review of...and then confirmed by Vacuum, Finepics and others. The movement is actually a so called 'hybrid', with old-style Swiss ETA main-plate and just about everything else Asian add-ons. It's a good movement, and appart from few initial issues with the c0ck pallet it's been running just fine in hundreds of watches bought as new from circa July 2006 - until now. I'm sure The Zigmeister will be able to fill you in more specifics if required...but the bottom line is - while not full Swis ETA, it's not the full Asian one, either cheers, babola Edited June 18, 2007 by babola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I wouldn't call it Asian ETA...it may be more Asian than you'd expect from the mov't being sold to you as Swiss - but definitelly not a full Asian. It's the movement we now know much more about these days, especially after The Zigmeister took it appart, and posted a long review of...and then confirmed by Vacuum, Finepics and others. The movement is actually a so called 'hybrid', with old-style Swiss ETA main-plate and just about everything else Asian add-ons. It's a good movement, and appart from few initial issues with the c0ck pallet it's been running just fine in hundreds of watches bought as new from circa July 2006 - until now. I'm sure The Zigmeister will be able to fill you in more specifics if required...but the bottom line is - while not full Swis ETA, it's not the full Asian one, either cheers, babola i don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babola Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 (edited) i don Edited June 18, 2007 by babola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 It looks like the combo Swiss/Asian 6497. The mainplate is ETA, most of the rest of the parts are Asian...which parts are Asian and which are ETA, I couldn't tell you. Does it matter??? Is it less "Swiss" because some parts are "Asian"? what difference does it make. It's a good movement, and how many reports do you see of defective handwind movements? Very little to none, so what is the problem? I think your dealing with someone who has buyer's remorse, once they got the watch, tried it on, realized it was really big or whatever, they changed their mind...and they want you to pay for it, buy claiming all sorts of stuff. How many people here have a personal "watchmaker" and as soon as they receive a watch, take it to their "watchmaker" for a full analysis and examination? Think how strange this sounds, someone bringing a counterfit watch to a watchmaker to analyse it and find out if it's real? Doesn't this sound strange to you...it sure does to me... I would ask for a copy of the bill and the details from the watchmaker, how he determined that the crystal was not sapphire, and that the movement was not Swiss, etc... It's no secret what model you sold, anyone who wants to see it, and the movement in it, can visit and look at the watch on any dealer's web site. If you had sold an unknown model and YOU said it was Swiss and it wasn't, then we have a different situation. If the buyer did not do their research, then that is their fault, not yours... The way I see it, you owe them nothing as you did nothing wrong. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geo1nah2a Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I agree with The Zigmeister. This seems like a buyer's remorse problem. Explain to your buyer (and to his watchmaker) that there is no 6497 sold with these bridges sold from ETA. Panerai was buying ETA6497 and then putting on them their custom made bridges. This is what our rep makers are doing too. "Real Swiss 6497 Mov't with swan neck dagger" means : getting an original ETA and adding an asian copy of the panerai bridges, plus the dagger/swan neck regulator. Now, some people would argue that this is not 'swiss' any more. I think this is as "panerai and swiss" as it gets, without paying 1500euro for a panerai original caliber. -BUT- From the picture of your caliber, I am not sure if this is the case. Look here : http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=11128 . You see, there is a second type of caliber nowadays. Instead of using a genuine 6497, and placing the custom made(chinese)panerai bridges, some makers, started doing this by starting with copied versions of the 6497. From the single picture you posted, I think this is your caliber. An asian 6497, modified with the correct bridges. If you can provide with a better pic of the pallet and the balance wheel I could tell you for sure if this is an swiss+bridges or asian+bridges. When it comes to the sapphire, this is even harder to judge by pics. Maybe revealing the name of the originating dealer, could help us in guessing. I, for one, have hard time believing you were sent a sapphire back glass. I am not saying you tried to scam your buyer. I am wondering if you were scammed. Or even if one of our dealers was scammed. Especially if he did drop ship to you.. I believe you could just take the watch back before it creates any other kind of problems. You could end up losing both watch and the money. Or try to reevaluate your watch, and offer a partial refund to the buyer. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweattdogg Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I think that you didn't knowinly try to mislead the buyer. I think it would be more than fair to offer the buyer his money back as soon as you get the watch back. The buyer could pay the shipping. The watch looks nice and provided it runs correctly it shouldn't be too hard to sell to someone who will appreciate it as is. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babola Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 (edited) ...An asian 6497, modified with the correct bridges... ...and again, we've been over this number of times in the past few months - it's a hybrid mov't, a combo of Swiss and Asian 6497-1 parts, and although with 2/3 of parts being China made - definitely not what you'd call Asian 6497, since Asian 6497 is built on top of the Asian 6497-1 copy of the mainplate, the one in this Fiddy rep isn't. If the name 'Swiss/Asian hybrid' is so hard to digest for some, how about we start calling it 'swasian' or 'chwiss'....LOL! Edited June 18, 2007 by babola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I agree (but how could one dissagree) with Ziggy I have the same watch, ok so it is chiss,, arnt they all! Buyer if you want real swiss and every thing else, stump up and get a gen, you will probably still find the main plate is made in china! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geo1nah2a Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 ...and again, we've been over this number of times in the past few months - it's a hybrid mov't, a combo of Swiss and Asian 6497-1 parts, and although with 2/3 of parts being China made - definitely not what you'd call Asian 6497, since Asian 6497 is built on top of the Asian 6497-1 copy of the mainplate, the one in this Fiddy rep isn't. If the name 'Swiss/Asian hybrid' is so hard to digest for some, how about we start calling it 'swasian' or 'chwiss'....LOL! chwiss sounds ok, but there should be more letters from china, than from swiss..Chiness maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 It looks like the combo Swiss/Asian 6497. The mainplate is ETA, most of the rest of the parts are Asian...which parts are Asian and which are ETA, I couldn't tell you. Does it matter??? Is it less "Swiss" because some parts are "Asian"? what difference does it make. It's a good movement, and how many reports do you see of defective handwind movements? why should the main plate ETA (stamp is a copy)? Why should mainplate not also asian copy? Why should they use a ETA mainplate with asian parts? A full asian movement with asian mainplate were much easyer to produce? Where will the asian get so much ETA mainplates? i don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babola Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) It looks like we caught ourselves in the circle here (again)...so I'll drop it...I said enough on this theme in the past few months anyway, getting tired of repeating myself, that's all. babola Edited June 20, 2007 by babola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fendushi Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hi everyone, I just wanted to announce that I am the buyer of the watch... I do not blame onezero for "misleading" me in any way... it his him, that has been mislead by the original seller of the watch. I was merely asking... just asking... if he would take the watch back and I'll pay for the postage both ways... so no loss for him. There was no demand... or malice intended. I've read about the exploding crystals... so I am not really surprised when I found out that the front and back are both mineral crystal. No water drop test or chemical analysis needed... you can tell by tapping with your fingernail. Try tapping both sapphire and mineral glass... there is a difference. No big deal... Davidsen to the rescue! But...because it seems like the movement was not a normal/genuine (whatever) 6497... my regular watchmaker (a friend who does not do this by profession, but educated in Horology...yes he does have a degree) was reluctant to service it. I was going to keep the watch if only a watchmaker would service the movement for me. My heart just dropped to the floor when he told me that it was a "dodgy, Non genuine ETA" movement. Where I live (Sydney)... it is very hard to find someone that would even look at reps, let alone service (overhaul) them. If anyone knows a watchmaker in Sydney that would service reps... please PM me. Judging by onezero not replying to my PMs... I'm guessing that he does not want the watch back. That's fine with me... just a simple yes or no would do, no hard feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 A long time no see Fendi...a really long time... Agree that the seller was misinformed about the crystal and the movement. I have replaced my share of shattered crystals, so I can see your point. Understand completely your side, now that we hear it. The movement is not completely Asian, and certainly not a bad actor in my books. Easy to service and so far I have never had any issues with the movement except for the sometimes hairspring touching the balance bridge or the wheel. A simple fix, and only a problem on a few of these movements. Other than this, you should be able to have this serviced without any problems. You can pass on this info to your watchmaker if it helps...and I do have spare parts if needed, but have never had to replace any on this model. Replacing the front crystal with a davidsen is good insurance. If you can't get someone locally to do the work, you know how to reach me...have customers in New Zeland, Australia, etc, no problems with shipping. Thanks for stepping forward. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fendushi Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 @The Zigmeister Thanks mate... I'll let you know when i get stuck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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