ryyannon Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 You may love him, you may hate him or you may simply not give a damn one way or another. This isn't a political discussion, just a freebie (he can afford it): Michael Moore's 'Sicko' - full-length and downloadable - on Google Video. Say 'Ahh', please: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=90...h&plindex=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchy Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Damn, doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Damn, doesn't work. Sorry, they must have taken it down pretty quickly. I did have the time to download it and watch - it's pretty good. There are copies circulating all over the Net - I wouldn't be surprised if someone re-posts it on Google vids soon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchy Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Sorry, they must have taken it down pretty quickly. I did have the time to download it and watch - it's pretty good. There are copies circulating all over the Net - I wouldn't be surprised if someone re-posts it on Google vids soon.... I hope so. I like his work (though biased of course) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted June 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 It's back up, but probably not for long: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=16...h&plindex=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shultzie Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 Love him or hate him... No denying its an important subject that needs some serious light shined on it. (uh oh...too political?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbie Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 I haven't see this vid but if it's about the US medical system it's definitely got to be messed up. Such a POS. Will check it out when I get the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 I caught it yesterday when it was up. THanks for the link Ry. It was "Brilliant" His best yet and less politically biased than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchy Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 Very touching movie. Thanks ryyannon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Just seen it and ... well, yes. As a UK citizen that has been ill in both the UK and France, I am now genuinely scared of visiting the US. Ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 let me just say, my medical insurance kicks butt, I have the same dentist as russian president putin (funny, huh, putin and the other russian ministers have a german dentist flying in all the time to do their teeth). I even get botox shots for free every 6 months for my feet, because I dont want to have stinky feet all the time. These shots alone costs a hell of a lot more than I pay, but what the hell Now I'm here back in america again and my friend tells me he cant get his teeth fixed because he doesnt have dental... crazy world! I cant see (on the other hand) why american doctors earn SO MUCH more money than german doctors? In germany you get 50k tops a year if you work at a hospital. And you work at least 12 hours a day (sometimes even 24h shifts) and you have to do night shifts all the time and you have to be a good doc, too. In america I know surgeons that get payed more than 200k a year. How is that possible if insurance doesnt pay for most things?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted June 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Botox for your feet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 yeah, its really cool, havnt had stinky feet ever since. got a good doc, you know... private practise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbie Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 (edited) Doctors don't charge crap. It's mostly all determined by the insurance companies unless you're in private practice with FFS (fee for service) and most people do not pay out of pocket which brings us back to insurance companies, HMOs, PPOs, etc. I agree that the medical system in Europe (well I am only familiar with Sweden and Germany) is better than the US in a lot of ways but you also get taxed up the wazoo for it up front. When I was in Canada, taxes ranged from around 14-20%. Compare that with most places in the US where it's 7% or less. @Nanug, I totally agree that frivolous lawsuits are a big part of it. Many doctors are avoiding or getting out of fields like obstetrics or surgery cause of huge malpractice insurance fees. Also, you can't pay out of pocket for everything. If you need any major procedures done, that's a crazy amount of money. But for small things, it's not really a problem. Back on topic: Yeah, great, you're making $200k+ but half of it is going towards insurance and student loans (okay, not half obviously but a lot of it). Of course, there are the successful ones who pull in a lot more than $200k/year but they are a small percentage. Think about how many people are in business/real estate and how many of them are Donald Trump. Same idea. I love how people generalize how rich doctors are and how overpaid they are. From a financial perspective, it's a lot smarter to go into law, business, dentistry, etc. 4 years of college + 4 years of dentistry/law = $100k+ paycheck without a lot of the hassle. You're also in the work force a lot earlier which means more money to invest which means more money in the long run. Medicine = 4 years college + 4 years medical school + 3-6 years residency (where you make less than $50k/year) + $100-200k in student loans (I have no idea how much loans cost for something like law or dentistry but would also like to throw out that medical school in many European countries is free) to earn the average salary of $150-200k and pay massive amounts of insurance. I wonder if it's worth it. Me = 3rd year medical student. I know there are several docs on this board who would likely agree with me. PS For the record, I think the US medical system totally stinks and people are overcharged for a lot of it. I also really hate the overcharging pharmaceutical companies and how insurance companies dictate care based on the bottom line of the dollar. Someone once commented to me that being a doctor in the US is like spending all of your time filling out rebate forms. It's sadly true. PPS There are exceptions to the high malpractice insurance fees. Hardly anyone will sue a dermatologist or radiologist for example and they make HUGE money. Which is also why they are so difficult to get into (relative to something like Internal Medicine or Pediatrics for example). Edited June 21, 2007 by Jumbie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbie Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 (edited) There are also lots of people with no insurance (illegal or not) who get away with using their relative's own. Doctors also need to cater to the insurance companies so that they can be listed as one of their preferred/recommended providers. Otherwise, they are left out of the loop and don't get as many patients as another provider who bows down to "The Man". Then there are patient quotas that you have to meet which is why docs spend so little time with each patient. It's such a ridiculous system. I can't stress that enough and I haven't even been really involved in it yet since I'm only a student. Please note that I don't think that the system is poor because doctors don't make as much money as they did in the 80s. It's just that I hate that decisions are made by the insurance companies about patients' care and I can't understand that for the life of me. Sometimes I can't blame people for not having insurance either cause it's so damned expensive. How many people do you know that stick with their job/employer cause they get dental and medical coverage? Oh and hospitals overcharge for a lot of crap too. Edited June 21, 2007 by Jumbie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dani Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 People in Norway that whant to be a doctor have to go in school for like 6years plus what is a normal education so i feel they deserve the money and have can anyone not agree when they dedictae their life to helping people. I can also add in Norway as many other countrys in Europe have tax'es ALL the way up our ass. In Norway a income tax is 36%(normal) and 1liter gas cost 2$ a Volvo whit a 1,6L engine cost about 50000$+ half is tax to the goverment. And we are one of the richest country Ok we got cheap health care but lol dont belive its all good becasue of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool-arrow Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Get a good job that includes insurance. Health insurance in the UK sux I just lived there for 3 years. It may be free but there is a reason that it is free. Because it is cheap and crap. It couldnt hold a candle to the facilities in the US but it is free. I visited my friend when his wife had her baby in Paris. The facility looked similar to the ones in the UK. In the US you have dozens of providers and you can even choose to have alternative medicine care providers now under most company's. How is Canadas health care facilities compared to other countries? The free health care hype is all political and would degrade the health care system in the US. Besides there is next to free health care in the US. It is called "county" the gov will usually pay all of your costs if you are beneath the national average or charge you very little. The 3D ultra sound was invented in the UK and the majority of the hospitals still do not have it available WTF is with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbie Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 It couldnt hold a candle to the facilities in the US but it is free. That is not at all my understanding though I have no first-hand experience with the actual medical system over there. From what I've been told by many doctors, docs in the UK actually know how to diagnose patients instead of relying on test after test in a shotgun approach (which again partially gets back to fear of being sued so the docs try to cover their asses) like many in the US (again, I say this as someone studying medicine in the US system). How is Canadas health care facilities compared to other countries? Pretty good. Just long wait times depending on what you need done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool-arrow Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 That is not at all my understanding though I have no first-hand experience with the actual medical system over there. From what I've been told by many doctors, docs in the UK actually know how to diagnose patients instead of relying on test after test in a shotgun approach (which again partially gets back to fear of being sued so the docs try to cover their asses) like many in the US (again, I say this as someone studying medicine in the US system). Pretty good. Just long wait times depending on what you need done. I can agree with that. The trick is to find a good health care provider and good doctor. Usually if my doctor cannot narrow down something he will send me to a specialist in the area. My primary doctor basically covers minor issue and referes me to a specialist in the fields that he thinks the problem is eminating from. The major difference is that I can get an appointment that day or the next. Without waiting forever. Usually I can see a specialist that same day, or have a choice to pick from. Of course my doctor will recomend one. The major differnce is that I can see 3 different doctors in 1 day if I wanted a 2nd and 3rd opinon. In the UK that would be impossible. I can also get medication with no problem within minutes, or I can pick it up at hundreds of drive threw stores at my conveniance. That is non existant in the UK. I have a family doctor, so I see the same person everytime, and it establishes a relationship between patient and provider. They really go the extra mile and I have a variety of cures to choose from conventional, herbal, non-conventional. It is all covered by my insurance at 0 cost to me. Im not necessarily talking about the Doctors but more the facility, like bringing your own gown, every thing needed and not needed is provided in US, food served, quality of service, linens changed, own private room, own bathroom, no room mates, parking, hospital facilities for guest, restuarants in hospital, chappel, stores, satellite T.V. in room, location, wait time, all of that stuff that lacks in the EU. I think they forgot about all of that stuff. In the US it is like staying in a hotel, in the UK it is like staying in a hospital. They both get the job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 I think they forgot about all of that stuff. In the US it is like staying in a hotel, in the UK it is like staying in a hospital. They both get the job done. In the UK, we all have the option of private medical insurance as well. You can get all the frills if you want, but not many people bother. When the free stuff is good enough, why pay extra for a private room with colour TV? I don't understand what the great fear of so-called "socialised medicine" is. For one thing, it is so much cheaper as there's entire layers of bureaucracy missing, and lobbying costs, both of which get their costs passed on to you. I think anyone on the fence should watch Sicko as it's quite an eye-opener. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usil Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 There is no doubt that the US model is chaotic, corrupt and out of control. It scares me as I approach retirement age. When I was a lot younger working as a hospital orderly I used to check patients out and stop them by the 'Cashiers office'. I saw entire savings wiped out for older people who worked hard all their lives to secure their retirement. Then, when I went back up stairs, I took care of patients I knew to be indegent, homeless and broke getting the same care. With no fear of payment as they had nothing. This is just not right but the move to socialized medicine is not free as you know the tax burden is high. Then there is the 'do you really trust the government to do this efficiently??'. The problem now for the US is how do you move to socialized medicine in the current state? People are afraid to consider what will come from the process. As far as private coverage in England - I don't think it is the amenities that turn people to buy private insurance but that they are looking for faster treatment and shorter timing on critical surgeries, cancer treatment, transplants etc... where there are waiting lists to pass through to finally get scheduled treatment. With out private insurance, you do get treatment eventually if you are still alive. No easy answer in the US. Usil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted June 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 As if Moore weren't enough, even the notoriously Socialo-Communistic AMA (American Medical Association) is getting into the act: http://www.patientsactionnetwork.com/stop_...00&adno=310 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 One thing is clear, it's a good job Michael Moore (love him or hate him) has opened up the debate. I just hope people don't use the fact that it's Michael Moore doing the documentary to sweep the points under the carpet. Oh, wait. That's how they do things. I forgot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 If Scammer Jim came on this site and said a whole lot of things that ultimately proved to be wrong, and upon further investigation were revealed to be KNOWN as wrong by Scammer Jim, wouldn't the members here reasonably refuse to take him seriously in the future? That type of behavior applies to every walk of life, not just watches. So we should shut down the debate? The problem with politics is that ad hominem has been shown to work, and Michael Moore shouldn't be the debate but Sicko will be shot down as That fat guy's latest liberal rant, the commie. One thing is clear, and that is that something needs to be done about health care if you want to stop looking like a selfish I'm alright Jack society. The amazing generosity of Americans I've met online and in real life shows you're not at all like that, obviously, but I don't get it. ps. Humour follows: Scammer Jim has come on this site and been caught to be known lying and we as a community decided to keep Scammer Josh ... er, Jim here as a trusted dealer, so sure, why not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Much of what just seems "wrong" with the American medical system comes down to a broken legal system. Legal/Government. But yes, I get your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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