Pugwash Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 They are simply not worth the value that they are associated with. It is brand-name hype/commercialism and nothing else. Um ... that's capitalism. Everything is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay, it's the definition of value. It's how things work, apparently. What makes an Aston-Martin or Jaguar worth more than a Ford Mondeo? Made by the same sort of people out of the same components and raw materials, yet one is without a doubt worth more than the other. You collect replicas because of this value, one way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Um ... that's capitalism. Everything is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay, it's the definition of value. It's how things work, apparently. What makes an Aston-Martin or Jaguar worth more than a Ford Mondeo? Made by the same sort of people out of the same components and raw materials, yet one is without a doubt worth more than the other. You collect replicas because of this value, one way or another. I know what you mean, but, just because someone is willing to pay X amount, that doesn't mean that The Product (whatever that may be) is actually worth the associated price tag. Aston-Martin is something of a flawed comparison... The DB-9 (I believe that's the model) is individually customized to the owner's personal measurements. I remember reading about it when Hugh Grant ordered one. Rolex, as far as I know, do not make a product which is so individually tailored. Sure, they might throw some Arabic writing on the dial for wealthy patrons, but in terms of 'tailoring' the case and link sizes, they are still just standard issue components, they wouldn't make a bracelet with say five huge links, or ten tiny links (or whatever would be needed for Mr X's wrist)... Sure, they're both considered 'luxury products', but one is still way above the other. It's like comparing a hand-tailored Saville Row suit to the best off-the rack Armani, Gucci, Calvin Klein etc. Neither product is 'bad', but one is still considerably 'more deserving' of it's price tag than the other, although it could still be argued that one could have an equally nice, and equally well made hand tailored suit from Thailand, for about $20... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 compare gen prices with fake prices is one thing compare price of gen watch with another gen watch is a different thing! some gen watches has a good price (in compare with gen watches... not reps) - others are to expensive Rolex Seadweller price is ok. Manufacture movement, superp quality, a BIG name, development in worth, good service etc etc etc other gen watches are to expensive and not worth the money... enough expamples! But also exist good reps and reps which not worth any cent... Daytona second 6! One of the badest rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Back to the question at hand. What is the relevant price comparison. It turns out to be more complex for me. I start with do I like the watch. Then I look for the quality from an aesthetic and movement perspective relative to the gen. And yes, I know they are never as good...blah...blah...blah. Now overlay that against the cost of a gen and against the cost of other reps of similar quality I like (i.e. is there another rep for all the reasons above I would like to own?). And then I decide as I can't afford to buy every watch (rep or gen) that I want. But my initial cut after I have decided I like a watch is still how close is the cost of the gen to the particular rep. It is a little hard to argue to buy and mod a rep with a genuine part or two (if so inclined) for $500-600 knowing you could buy the gen for $1500. It is nice having a warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 compare gen prices with fake prices is one thing compare price of gen watch with another gen watch is a different thing! some gen watches has a good price (in compare with gen watches... not reps) - others are to expensive Rolex Seadweller price is ok. Manufacture movement, superp quality, a BIG name, development in worth, good service etc etc etc other gen watches are to expensive and not worth the money... enough expamples! But also exist good reps and reps which not worth any cent... Daytona second 6! One of the badest rep. Indeed, all very valid points. All I've saying, is that just because something has a 'Big brand name', that does not automatically mean that the product is worth a high price tag. I feel that high-price tags on products (be it cars, clothes, watches) should only be reserved for things which are totally customised to a client's requirements. For example, a Boyd Coddington Hot Rod is worth way more than, say, a Bugatti Veyron, purely because the entire thing has been 100% custom made for the client. (For the record, I am a huge admirer of Chip Foose' artistic abilities, and he is one of my 'business idols') Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Indeed, all very valid points. All I've saying, is that just because something has a 'Big brand name', that does not automatically mean that the product is worth a high price tag. I feel that high-price tags on products (be it cars, clothes, watches) should only be reserved for things which are totally customised to a client's requirements. For example, a Boyd Coddington Hot Rod is worth way more than, say, a Bugatti Veyron, purely because the entire thing has been 100% custom made for the client. (For the record, I am a huge admirer of Chip Foose' artistic abilities, and he is one of my 'business idols') same here on replicas... look on ebay... you will see replicas without branding... how much cost they? Less than reps with branding. So we pay for the name... on genuine watches... also on replica watches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 same here on replicas... look on ebay... you will see replicas without branding... how much cost they? Less than reps with branding. So we pay for the name... on genuine watches... also on replica watches. Yes, that was precicely my point. Be it a replica, or a genuine item, whatever The Product might be, a Name Tag will automatically command a higher price than an Unbranded item, even if the only difference is that Name Tag. Adding a name to an item does not increase the actual quality of the item though, it simply increases it's commercial value. The point I was trying to make with watches, which I had to illustrate with cars, is that in the car world, if you spend enough money, you get an item that is not only hand-crafted (which I agree watches are), but an item which is also customized and 'tailored' to the buyer's preferences. With a watch, the only way to get a customized watch, is to go to a watch maker (or build it yourself) that is not the same as buying an expensive branded watch, and having it made just to your specifications. Indeed, would a company like Rolex or Omega even make something specifically to order for an individual purchase? If so, how 'flexible' would they be with the customer? Would they allow 100% creative freedom to make literally whatever the person wanted, or, as with the Submariners with Arabic script, would they give the buyer 'options', like when buying a regular car? Even the Panerai Slytech was not a totally unique, one-off watch for Stalone, but a case of the company taking his input, and making a production series from that, which they knew they could sell more that one unit. Where as back in 'car world', with the Aston-Martin DB9, or a Boyd Coddington hotrod, the customer gets something which is unique to them and their personal requests. (obviously the hotrods are more unique than the Aston-Martins ) As an aside, I think Boyd owns a gold Daytona. I've seen Chip Foose (who personally I rate much more highly as an artist and designer) wearing a red/black GMT Master II, and several other watches which I couldn't actually identify... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Where as back in 'car world', with the Aston-Martin DB9, or a Boyd Coddington hotrod, the customer gets something which is unique to them and their personal requests. (obviously the hotrods are more unique than the Aston-Martins ) Wtches are harder to "custom make" apart from maybe a modified dial, different strap, and maybe an engraving somewhere. With your example of the Aston Martin, it's not a drastic change - if you see a DB9 on the street you recognize it's a DB9. They don't put spoilers and wings all over the place and put in James Bond style weaponry if you ask for it... or do they ? As far as I know, it's the interior being custom designed, much like changing a strap on a PAM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Where as back in 'car world', with the Aston-Martin DB9, or a Boyd Coddington hotrod, the customer gets something which is unique to them and their personal requests. (obviously the hotrods are more unique than the Aston-Martins ) If using Aston Martin as an example doesn't fit, try Jaguar vs Ford. They're made in the same factory, in some cases with the same parts, yet a part coming out with a Jaguar badge on it is more valuable than a piece with a Ford badge. ps. The DB9 isn't 'custom made' as much as 'sold with optional extras'. It's like getting an IWC with a rubber strap or paying a bit extra for the Croc or the Stainless. They don't measure your legs and shape the cockpit around them, so dispel that illusion immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Wtches are harder to "custom make" apart from maybe a modified dial, different strap, and maybe an engraving somewhere. With your example of the Aston Martin, it's not a drastic change - if you see a DB9 on the street you recognize it's a DB9. They don't put spoilers and wings all over the place and put in James Bond style weaponry if you ask for it... or do they ? As far as I know, it's the interior being custom designed, much like changing a strap on a PAM I admit, the Aston-Martin is not a dramatically personalized car, in that it is still recognizeable. But, it is still tailored to the buyer, so that makes it that bit more personalized than someone buying a car from a dealer and choosing what color they want the paint and uphostery, but, as mentioned, right at the top of the scale in terms of customization, are the creations of Boyd Coddington, as they are built to customer specifications. Indeed, watches are harder to customize, but not impossible, this was what I was meaning in terms of would they agree to fabricate new parts (say five huge links or ten tiny links) or would they just say "here's the parts list, go nuts..." Try walking into a Rolex AD and asking for a customized Sub... I bet that'd get laughed at more than someone flashing a rep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 If using Aston Martin as an example doesn't fit, try Jaguar vs Ford. They're made in the same factory, in some cases with the same parts, yet a part coming out with a Jaguar badge on it is more valuable than a piece with a Ford badge. Absolutely. Pretty much my point entirely. ps. The DB9 isn't 'custom made' as much as 'sold with optional extras'. It's like getting an IWC with a rubber strap or paying a bit extra for the Croc or the Stainless. They don't measure your legs and shape the cockpit around them, so dispel that illusion immediately. Really? I remember reading about when Hugh Grant ordered a DB9, and said that there was a ludicrous waiting list, but didn't mind waiting, as it would be 'tailored' to his measurements... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Really? I remember reading about when Hugh Grant ordered a DB9, and said that there was a ludicrous waiting list, but didn't mind waiting, as it would be 'tailored' to his measurements... By that, he meant it'd not make his balls ache. Long story ... There's an 18 month waiting list for the DB9, with people selling them as soon as they get them to people willing to pay more to jump the queue. Do you think this practice were possible if the cars were tailor-made? Think of the resale value of a car you had to wear platform shoes to drive because it was made for Herman Munster. Anyway, to use your hot-rodders as an example, what makes Boyd Coddington's time worth more than a Ford engineer? I mean his time is worth more and that is reflected in his prices, but why? Now apply that to Rolex's chief designer and Omega's chief designer. They're obviously higher paid than the guy that designs Orsa or Oris watches and that salary has to be passed on to the final price of the watch. The Planet Ocean instantly has more value because Omega used more market research, costing them more R&D that simply cannot be actively applied to the manufacturing cost as parts and labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbie Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 I pay the price I think a replica is worth, regardless of the price of the genuine, I think that kind of sums up all I said before in this thread in a nice, neat little sentence. To me, it doesn't matter the cost of the gen because, due to the faults and shortcomings of the reps, there's still an absolute price point I think they're worth. One rep isn't worth $500 (because it's based on a $10k watch) to me compared with another only being $150 (based on a $2k) when that $500 rep still might have missing screws, stripped crown, no oil and lots of dirt, etc. just like the cheaper one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 By that, he meant it'd not make his balls ache. Long story ... Sounds interesting, do tell There's an 18 month waiting list for the DB9, with people selling them as soon as they get them to people willing to pay more to jump the queue. Do you think this practice were possible if the cars were tailor-made? Think of the resale value of a car you had to wear platform shoes to drive because it was made for Herman Munster. When you put it like that, you're right, it doesn't make a whole load of sense, I was going purely by what I'd read about Hugh Grant's comments. Anyway, to use your hot-rodders as an example, what makes Boyd Coddington's time worth more than a Ford engineer? I mean his time is worth more and that is reflected in his prices, but why? In terms of One Man's time, absolutely nothing. The difference being though, if you have deep enough pockets to go to Boyd Coddington, you get a car which is 100% custom made to exactly what you want. Take the same amount of money to a Ford dealership and tell them you want this and that done to the car, painted with reverse-faded candy paint, and I think you'd be politely, but firmly, shown the door... Exact same principle with a watch smith. Pay the price, and he'll make whatever you want. Try it in an AD for a big name like Rolex or Omega, and they'd be unable to accomodate your request... Now apply that to Rolex's chief designer and Omega's chief designer. They're obviously higher paid than the guy that designs Orsa or Oris watches and that salary has to be passed on to the final price of the watch. The Planet Ocean instantly has more value because Omega used more market research, costing them more R&D that simply cannot be actively applied to the manufacturing cost as parts and labour. Indeed, the salaries have to be included in final cost, but, put it this way, rather than selling one watch for $1000, if they were to drop the price to $100, I bet that there would still be enough sales (probably more sales due to the reduced price) to cover those original salary requirements... With regards costs, I wasn't really talking about the R&D and whatnot, but the actual monetary value of the watch itself and it's components. Ie, how much in terms of Raw Materials, would it actually cost to make the watch... If that was as high as it would seem, ie if the watch was actually worth $1000, and being sold 'at cost' + salaries, then the rep factories simply wouldn't be able to afford to make them, even without having to cover the salaries of designers and R&D consultants... I think that kind of sums up all I said before in this thread in a nice, neat little sentence. To me, it doesn't matter the cost of the gen because, due to the faults and shortcomings of the reps, there's still an absolute price point I think they're worth. One rep isn't worth $500 (because it's based on a $10k watch) to me compared with another only being $150 (based on a $2k) when that $500 rep still might have missing screws, stripped crown, no oil and lots of dirt, etc. just like the cheaper one. Absolutely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Sounds interesting, do tell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKf58KzyAsg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDCdkSTFZmw The tale should be somewhere on those clips, I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 A price comparison to the gen is not going to be relevant to anyone who thinks that all reps are crap and as such will never spend more than $100-200. It only becomes relevant if you are paying the higher prices of "super reps" of which some are super and some are not or buying them with the intent to mod them to something closer to gen. So putting it differently, if you are not inclined to spend larger amounts on a rep the price ratio of a rep to a gen is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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