Vintage parts madness, just when you think you've seen it all!

[docblackrock]

Speechless just speechless I've come across the seller before and very much legit (hence why not posted in Auction Scam) but still.....

Surely no-one's THAT stupid........are they?

click me and prepare to snort in derision....

[thewightstuff]

the market is certainly bearing high prices on all things genuine and vintage thats for sure. simple economics would suggest that markets will only bare what buyers are willing to spend and yet the only way ive seen any prices moves is upwards. some of the good guys could be getting even more than they are charging im sure.

its getting to the stage that dials and hands will be worth as much or more as the complete watch for some models and we are going to start seeing good watches being parted as they become more valuable that way. its a strange state of affairs thats for sure. i know others are thinking along the same lines too in as much disbelief as myself.

there will be a balance soon im sure in some respect though its not going to see prices fall, just settle and remain extremely high. its also going to mean the value of good vintage rolex arent going anywhere but further out of the reaches of most id expect. i kicked myself at biting the bullet and getting on the wagon with my gens later than when i should, only to see them more than double in value already. i now wish i hadnt picked up some more then too

ive just watched mutliple sets of 5513 and 1680 tritium hands fly out the door at $700 a set. not one set stuck about for more than a few minutes. my own thought was that at $1000 a set they wouldnt have remained unsold for any longer.

Edited August 23, 2007 by thewightstuff

[Watchmeister]

Even with the explosion in prices this one looks like "It only takes one..." I will be curious to see what his best offer is.

[chris5264]

I just saw a vintage rolex dial on timezone (I think) it was a dial with lots of damage, about 15 or 20% was totally removed and it was going for about 2500 (usd). I mean, so much of it would be new, it really begs the question if it is really vintage anymore or a replica? I mean, is there really something special about the actual metal? What if 60% of the dial needed repair? At some point it would be a replica.

[thewightstuff]

the dial wont be repaired and used but used as is. even a relume devalues the dial. to many, a damaged 100% original dial is worth more than a pristine service dial and both infinately more than any repaired or redial.

only vintage redials could be a possible exception to this. you can see this on gen vintage milsub relumes where this is still worth a lot of cash.

ive seen people swap out parts of very nice looking watches with less than pristine quality original era parts so that they could have their watch "original". its very common these days as collectors want to have everything just so.

[Heywood]

the market is certainly bearing high prices on all things genuine and vintage thats for sure. simple economics would suggest that markets will only bare what buyers are willing to spend and yet the only way ive seen any prices moves is upwards. some of the good guys could be getting even more than they are charging im sure.

its getting to the stage that dials and hands will be worth as much or more as the complete watch for some models and we are going to start seeing good watches being parted as they become more valuable that way. its a strange state of affairs thats for sure. i know others are thinking along the same lines too in as much disbelief as myself.

there will be a balance soon im sure in some respect though its not going to see prices fall, just settle and remain extremely high. its also going to mean the value of good vintage rolex arent going anywhere but further out of the reaches of most id expect. i kicked myself at biting the bullet and getting on the wagon with my gens later than when i should, only to see them more than double in value already. i now wish i hadnt picked up some more then too

ive just watched mutliple sets of 5513 and 1680 tritium hands fly out the door at $700 a set. not one set stuck about for more than a few minutes. my own thought was that at $1000 a set they wouldnt have remained unsold for any longer.

If I'm thinking of the same hand sets you are referring to they were actually priced at 700 Euro. I'm still in shock!

[chris5264]

the dial wont be repaired and used but used as is. even a relume devalues the dial. to many, a damaged 100% original dial is worth more than a pristine service dial and both infinately more than any repaired or redial.

only vintage redials could be a possible exception to this. you can see this on gen vintage milsub relumes where this is still worth a lot of cash.

ive seen people swap out parts of very nice looking watches with less than pristine quality original era parts so that they could have their watch "original". its very common these days as collectors want to have everything just so.

I wish I would have posted this, the dial I'm talking about actually had a good piece of the dial actually down to the metal. I mean, who would ever wear a watch like this? nice aging I can understand, but this would have to be fixed unless the person wanted one seriously ugly watch.

Hey,,,just noticed my 1,000 post

[thewightstuff]

Even with the explosion in prices this one looks like "It only takes one..." I will be curious to see what his best offer is.

thing is with a DRSD fetching upwards of 25k at the moment and most selling privately for more than that, 5k for a dial is a great buy and a drop in the ocean. a white SD from the same time will cost you about 12k so theres alot held in the red dial there. even a less then pristine one would look like a great purchase at that price if you had your dial replaced at service during the times when people cared less about these things...or sadly by an enthusiastic RSC service tech recently. there may be many personal stories behind prices paid, especially for parts too.

i know if i had an SD id be picking something like this up just to hold for an emergency just incase given the watch value and the impact of this investment tied to a gen dial that is very rare to see for sale.

that being said, i do agree thats its crazy the way things have gone. i read a comment today on the same that said perhaps everyone who cannot believe these prices is simply living in the past. the days of cheap vintage parts are long gone and everyone needs to get over it.

sadly this is fact now. cheap part prices are simply nostalgia these days and bare no relation to the reality of the market whether we like it or not.

i wonder how this trend will affect the rep world as even mundane upgrade parts become both difficult to find and costly.

Edited August 23, 2007 by thewightstuff

[thewightstuff]

I wish I would have posted this, the dial I'm talking about actually had a good piece of the dial actually down to the metal. I mean, who would ever wear a watch like this? nice aging I can understand, but this would have to be fixed unless the person wanted one seriously ugly watch.

Hey,,,just noticed my 1,000 post

congrats on the 1000

sadly with prices rocketing, many are trying to push parts that a while ago would have just been scrapped. it doesnt stop people from trying to get the current market price for something thats not worth this, especially when all too often they get it. that being said i wasnt meaning nice aging in my post above either. a crumbling and beat up original period dial is for many far better than anything later period wise regardless of how better the watch looks with this instead and the logic that rolex themselves would change out the parts to keep it looking tip top rather than decrepit.

certainly at the moment, thats the attitude amongst vintage enthusiasts

Edited August 23, 2007 by thewightstuff

[docblackrock]

the market is certainly bearing high prices on all things genuine and vintage thats for sure. simple economics would suggest that markets will only bare what buyers are willing to spend and yet the only way ive seen any prices moves is upwards. some of the good guys could be getting even more than they are charging im sure.

its getting to the stage that dials and hands will be worth as much or more as the complete watch for some models and we are going to start seeing good watches being parted as they become more valuable that way. its a strange state of affairs thats for sure. i know others are thinking along the same lines too in as much disbelief as myself.

there will be a balance soon im sure in some respect though its not going to see prices fall, just settle and remain extremely high. its also going to mean the value of good vintage rolex arent going anywhere but further out of the reaches of most id expect. i kicked myself at biting the bullet and getting on the wagon with my gens later than when i should, only to see them more than double in value already. i now wish i hadnt picked up some more then too

ive just watched mutliple sets of 5513 and 1680 tritium hands fly out the door at $700 a set. not one set stuck about for more than a few minutes. my own thought was that at $1000 a set they wouldnt have remained unsold for any longer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more aware than most that vintage parts are going skyward. And I also think this guy is just chancing his arm hoping for a collector with more money than sense (there's plenty of those around).

However, I'm just incredulous that things have reached this far so soon, when someone can ask the price of a modern Sub for a nasty looking beat up 1665 dial, using very bad pics, with what looks like water damage around the minute indices, and further damage to the dial text and god knows what state the original lacquer is in??? I could understand the price if we were talking a pristine NOS-like red dial, but we're not.

[Pugwash]

Don't get me wrong, I'm more aware than most that vintage parts are going skyward. And I also think this guy is just chancing his arm hoping for a collector with more money than sense (there's plenty of those around).

All it would take is someone that's lost a DRSD dial to RSC to want to return their watch to its original state. Serial numbers will match the claim it's a DRSD and his devalued SeaDweller just got its value back.

[southcoast68]

Ok, I wasn't going to post this in concern for the folks who read this forum who may have the funds to be in this level of watch collecting, but screw it. THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS OUT THERE WHO HAVE MORE MONEY THAN SENSE!! Five grand for a metal disc with a hole in the middle! Oh well, like a freind of mine once said "there is an ass for every seat", again, sorry for any hurt feelings out there. For that kind of cash, I could have a lot of fun hunting for parts and biulding my own Daytona, submariner, vintage Explorer, etc. As far as someone passing on parts in like new condition for old worn looking parts for that "patina look", com'on. Folks seem to forget, patina in all collectibles, (antuque furniture, paintings, watches, etc.) is best when it is genuine from a lifetime of use and proper care. Purposely paying through the nose to make something look old and worn out, just doesn't make sense to me. I like the way alot of us here do our vintage watches, get good quality rep parts and make them look aged yourself, a lot cheaper and fun as well. Ok, rant over, carry on.

[thewightstuff]

doc, i wasnt suggesting you were living in the past, king kenny had a great game against south africa last night lol

just teasing, i know you know how things are and agree its crazy, especially when you look at the world but i guess its just how it is. moaning will do no good and only leave us all without parts. markets drive themselves and this one is only getting worse. grab your parts now while you still can is the only message.

southcoast.

i am not talking about vintage enthusiasts putting old parts on to make their watches look old or have character. while the rep fora are full of tips to age everything including cases etc, the gen fora dont have any of this. everyone wants mint and authentic but theres just not much mint parts around and period correct is the overriding priority. its the prime directive if you will and prices are only continuing skywards.

for collectors, crusty but period correct is better than anything not period correct. even a relume on a gen dial is a no no with very few exceptions

since RSC replaced anything less than perfect and for a long time people werent as they are now theres many watches with service replacement hands and dials, bezels and crowns that are often seriously devalued as a result. this along with the perhaps more important fact that everyone now wants their gens to be spec'd as they were when they were made (ie tritium, matte etc etc) has meant that the limited parts available just got a lot smaller.

originality is king now and that means beat up is preferred if its all you can get. a beat up watch with original features is worth way more than a mint model with serviced parts.

while 5k seems alot for a dial (and is) its relative when the watch is 25k and putting this back in will see your watch jump by almost 15k if thats what it should have had and didnt. heck a milsub dial will push past 20k easy and there will be a queue waiting to grab it from you. 5k wouldnt get you close to genuine milsub sword hands these days and it wasnt so long ago that you could grab a tray of complete watches with decomission papers for $200.

5k is rapidly going to to get you less and less when it comes to authentic vintage parts. 1k will maybe get you NOS tritium sub hands now if you are lucky and i remember baulking at the thought of $150 for a set of lume service replacements. 5k will just and only just get you a 5513 now as prices have more than doubled in less than a year

its ironic that spiralling prices of gen parts may be what kills vintage rep enthusiasts and their hobby. perhaps in the not too distant future its going to be easy to tell reps without more than a cursory glance. as all the gens have their service upgrades junked and become all tritium once more and poor ones are parted out, the reps are going to be covered in lume RSC parts which for many are already an expensive luxury.

EDITED:

to say bugger. pugwash said it much more succinctly below so i'll leave it to him

Edited August 23, 2007 by thewightstuff

[Pugwash]

Ok, I wasn't going to post this in concern for the folks who read this forum who may have the funds to be in this level of watch collecting, but screw it. THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS OUT THERE WHO HAVE MORE MONEY THAN SENSE!! Five grand for a metal disc with a hole in the middle!

Yeah, like Fine Art collectors. It's just paint on canvas! Oh, wait...

If something has a price and someone is willing to pay it, it doesn't make them stupid, unless the item is available elsewhere cheaper. If you don't think that's sensible then that's ok, but don't assume they have more money than sense.

[docblackrock]

Yeah, like Fine Art collectors. It's just paint on canvas! Oh, wait...

If something has a price and someone is willing to pay it, it doesn't make them stupid, unless the item is available elsewhere cheaper. If you don't think that's sensible then that's ok, but don't assume they have more money than sense.

'Fraid I disagree Pugs. IMO, it IS stupidity's triumph over common sense and logic.

Let's be honest, those operating at this level are predominantly high end collectors - most vintage owners care little of RSC swapouts, and prefer their heirloom watch is kept in 'good' condition', not seeing any inherent value in a beat up dial. From that point, it only takes one collector to pay such a price, and all of a sudden you are in a position where the market absorbs that precedent and sets it as the standard, essentially leaving the market to drive itself ever-exponentially upward.

Ultimately, they're creating a rod for their own backs, but since these guys (and some of us know of them personally or by reputation) have both endless time and obscene amounts of money to burn, the increasing prices mean absolutely nothing to them. Of course, this market shaping is not always entirely by chance.....you can't tell me that the 1655 Explorer market has not been subject to some premeditated supply and demand tampering over the last few years, can you?

I know it was just a throwaway remark, but your art world analogy is also flawed....hard core art collectors (as opposed to investors like global banks etc.) here are paying for individuality, provenance, history, whether the bloody thing looks nice/impresses clients on their wall or not. Most pieces of fine art (from Rennaisance to Old Masters to 20C works) have all been restored to some extent, as forensic X-rays will confirm. It does not detract from their value per se, in fact can sometimes add to their provenance (this mark is from such event etc.) whereas an area of decaying media will hamper value. In this sense, your 5k-dial-purchasing 1665 'collector' is in my opinion, less of a connossieur, more of a maladjusted completist with borderline Aspergers' tendency.

Not everything should be about maximising monetary value, and a vintage Rolex is not a hedge fund. Honestly, I despair at the thought.

[docblackrock]

doc, i wasnt suggesting you were living in the past, king kenny had a great game against south africa last night lol

they don't make them like Kenny anymore, feel privileged to have watched him in his prime.

[DuDro]

Yeah, like Fine Art collectors. It's just paint on canvas! Oh, wait...

If something has a price and someone is willing to pay it, it doesn't make them stupid, unless the item is available elsewhere cheaper. If you don't think that's sensible then that's ok, but don't assume they have more money than sense.

I'll 2nd that...

[thewightstuff]

'Fraid I disagree Pugs. IMO, it IS stupidity's triumph over common sense and logic.

Let's be honest, those operating at this level are predominantly high end collectors - most vintage owners care little of RSC swapouts, and prefer their heirloom watch is kept in 'good' condition', not seeing any inherent value in a beat up dial. From that point, it only takes one collector to pay such a price, and all of a sudden you are in a position where the market absorbs that precedent and sets it as the standard, essentially leaving the market to drive itself ever-exponentially upward.

this is where you are wrong in some sense. almost all vintage owners these days care about every tiny little detail of accuracy. all you ever hear are debates about if a dial should be in that watch because its a year early, has something been touched up etc etc. there will still be a small portion who have owned theirs a long time or had it passed down but the very large majority of owners are enthusiasts for want of a better word and treat it all very seriously (perhaps a little too much in my mind) they are however generally high end collectors though in some sense even if financial investment varies greatly. its not a cheap and cheerful route into rolex ownership going vintage. its much less expensive and troublefree buying new or new second hand.

the fact that rolex changed it out matters not. if it wasnt in there when it was made then it shouldnt be in there now is how it is across the models these days. this is one of the factors for rolex withdrawing support for various vintages. the price of dial and hands and the serious impact of changing and/or damage immasculated them in many ways. most now cant get their watches serviced and of the few that are accepted, less are put through the work due to differences with rolex over what must be left.

its ironic that the watches from when rolex really were making tools and less fussy themselves are now the most fussed over and preened there is.

the second part of your comment is exactly the case with everything and not just this. its simple economics at work. to think that its simply one or two collectors fueling prices upwards is wrong. anomolous purchases dont force up pricing, there needs to be wide spread market forces acting to do this. its simplistic to think that one or two people with lots of money are causing the increase. this could only happen if they were buying the bulk of the market and this isnt the case with either watches or parts.

its luxury goods too ( in the economic sense) which makes matters worse in many ways. i dont think its fair to say that its just people looking to make as much money as they can. this does everyone involved a diservice and is unjust in my opinion.

many people will be selling items they previously didnt consider because prices have hit levels which make them reassess the worth to them and people selling parts will be looking for what they can get but thats neither anything new and certainly a large jump to your conclusion thats its a simple triumph of stupidity over common sense..

the ground has just changed dramtically and memories of cheaper prices are forever going to remain that. memories.

no one is going to start shifting their watches cheaply just because they bought them for cheap or a long time ago.

do i like it, not one bit. why? two reasons. the first is that like you the thought of people holding them as a pure investment is something that is fundamentaly different to my approach to watches. it takes a lot of the fun and personalities out of the hobby and at the same time hides away watches that should be shown off. the second is because theres some watches i want to buy and cant justify at the moment with pricing as it is. this also means that unless my personal circumstances change then i will be unable to ever add them as they arent likely to drop anytime soon. id also like a ferarri and a classic car collection instead of my car but they cost more than i am able to spend. id also like a genuine matisse instead of my print but they same applies. that doesnt make the pricing a triumph of stupidity over common sense in either case in my opinion.

Edited August 23, 2007 by thewightstuff

[thewightstuff]

im jealous that you got to watch kenny play, though when i think about it not so much that id give up my youth to have seen it

scotlands taking over in here, pugs in scotland too.....(so counts for this even though hes in disguise)

one more and we would need a burns night

i do take what you are saying in some sense ref dealers. limited availability makes it hard to get any alternatives to paying the increasing prices seen though i do suspect that wider availability would have only served to prevent such a rapid increase rather than effect final price levels or alter the trend. i saw prices of both watches and parts at the higher end dealers a year ago that made me breath sharply that id bite peoples hands off for now.

its hard to gauge all of this though, theres so many variables. what is clear that theres an increasing amount of disposable income about albeit in a narrow circles as the wealth gap increases and an increasing general interest again in the less stale products of yesteryear thats not just limited to watches. ( i make electronica and watched analog synths and drum machines go crazy a few years ago as people moved back after the digital explosion)

look at kampfscwimmers, over 100k now and you couldnt shift one 10 years ago for 1k. and theres no parts market and dealer cartels to push this up

Edited August 23, 2007 by thewightstuff

[docblackrock]

this is where you are wrong in some sense. almost all vintage owners these days care about every tiny little detail of accuracy. all you ever hear are debates about if a dial should be in that watch because its a year early, has something been touched up etc etc. there will still be a small portion who have owned theirs a long time or had it passed down but the very large majority of owners are enthusiasts for want of a better word and treat it all very seriously (perhaps a little too much in my mind) they are however generally high end collectors though in some sense even if financial investment varies greatly. its not a cheap and cheerful route into rolex ownership going vintage. its much less expensive and troublefree buying new or new second hand.

Well, I would like to think there are still plenty of heirloom owners out there, but maybe you're right, you only have to attend one watch fair to see the majority of 'collectors' out of their garden sheds in droves, obssessing about this detail and that detail. Quite honestly, I think it's sad as in pathetic, it's being a WIS for the sake of being a WIS, delta-male mindset combined with alpha-male disposable income. I think the majority of these people need to take a step back and appreciate the simplistic beauty of exactly what they're collecting rather than fixating on the minutae....you can often see the same types in galleries standing right up close to a painting or sculpture, thick guidebook in hand, muttering to themselves and ruining the view of others. Hence my comment about the line between being a connossieur and having Aspergers'.

its ironic that the watches from when rolex really were making tools and less fussy themselves are now the most fussed over and preened there is.

Now THAT I couldn't agree more with, it's almost laughable, the irony...witness mine and Nanuq's musings on a hypothetical conversation in the Geneva RSC c.1960s....

"...hey Siegfried, I neet unt dial for zis GMT....vhat do you av in your drawer?....(*sounds of rummaging about, bits being discarded*)....oh ok, zat looks like it vill fit, who care novone vill know anyhows...danke mein heren."

"Siegfried vat is dial you geev me? You see it von't feet. For moment lend me file, eh?"

(sounds of a vice and a flat file being worked around a dial)

"Darn, look Siegfried, a ring is come off. Ah vell, we take dem ALL off now! Hand me pliers please"

to think that its simply one or two collectors fueling prices upwards is wrong. anomolous purchases dont force up pricing, there needs to be wide spread market forces acting to do this. its simplistic to think that one or two people with lots of money are causing the increase. this could only happen if they were buying the bulk of the market and this isnt the case with either watches or parts.

One or two, no. But several major players buying up and playing safe queen, releasing both watches and parts in a controlled fashion, is a very different story. The most obvious example of which I already gave, the 'Steve McQueen' 1655. Euno and I have talked about this many times. To think that market manipulation does not go on and is not affected by a small number of key individuals in what is a highly tracked collectors market, is a little na

[Chronus]

Even with the explosion in prices this one looks like "It only takes one..." I will be curious to see what his best offer is.

I offered $50

[Chronus]

Well great... now I need to go up my $45 offer.

[southcoast68]

I'm sticking to my original point of view on this as well, like docblackrock, I think this is just stupidity. Again, why do people collect anything? It SHOULD be for the love and interest for the watch, although some do collect purely for investment gain, and those who do collect as investment would collect on complete watches that are in good condition already. Remember how the WIS faithful always say that original paperwork, boxes, tags and the like really hike up value? Where will this dial end up? In a SD put together from parts and sold for a kings ransom without any papers proving authenticity? Take a good look at this dials condition, notice the wear pattern at the center? Looks like it came out of a watch whose hands were rubbing the dial which to me says that the watch wasn't right for a long time. If this dial was perfect or NOS, I still would not agree with the price, but I would be able to at least accept it could sell for as much. Remeber folks, like a classic car auction, all you neeed is two getting into a bidding war, two that just have to have it, and when it sells for a ridiculous price, the presedence is set.

Taking about the "Steve MqQueen" explorer (which nobody can prove that he had anything to do with), that watch when new was never a great seller for Rolex, maybe because the dial is confusing to read for some. Yet now, original pristine examples with boxes and paper work are seen on the 'Bay for aroung 30k. Used ones showing some wear I have seen with buy it now prices of 8k. This is a stainless steel watch, no gold or precious stones here. Much like its transitional model with the cream colored dial (model number escapes me), not a very good seller when new, now collectors pay a premium for. Many Daytonas from the sixties and seventies supposedly had thier dials and bezels switched if the customer wanted, just so jewelers could move them out, now they are on the 'Bay for between 50 to 60k. Are all these really worth that much!!

Lets also remember that a lot of these vintage dials have many inconsistencies within the same model, and that a dial in bad shape would IMO be even harder to authenticate. I also think that for such a vintage peice, we deserve a picture of the back so we could even see if it were a SINGER dial. From that angle, can anyone really say that the coronet logo is centered perfectly over the L in Rolex like they say it should be. I won't question it if the seller has a good reputation, but then again I don't have to, I'm not buying it, and for whoever does, I really hope they get what they pay for!!

I certainly understand the rising price of the world, thats nothing new. I remember being pleased to be making $5.50 an hour at my job, and complaining to be paying $1.40 per gallon for gas, that was a while ago. I also realize there is a difference between what something "costs" and what it is "worth" and IMO this dial is overpriced in both categories.

[southcoast68]

In addition, I wonder how many out there do have perfect NOS double red dials they were going to sell for less. If this one sells for 5k, they are going to say "gee my dial just went double in price with out me doing anything" even though its probably not worth that. I guess if I want my gen Omega moon watch, I'd better hurry before the current market catches up to them as well .

[thewightstuff]

doc,

i really like any interactions with you too. its great to read opinions even when they arent in step with ones own but know there is clear thought in there and leave having a think. intelligent dialogue is often sadly lacking and thats not just limited to fora (is that even the plural of forum anyway?)

ive been thinking on this some more over the course of the evening and wonder if what is being experienced is just simply the effects of increased interest into a narrow field in some sense.

collecting attracts a special type of people, mostly dysfunctional in some base sense ( i laughed at your aspurgers comment, im not sure this is the afflication i would choose but get the jist) and i know i have many of the traits in a small scale, hoarding, anal, obsessive and unsatisfied and have to try in some way to rationalise them through in order to limit what is essentially their damage.

perhaps watches are just a powder keg of an item for this sort of behaviour. the rise in "interest" of vintage meant that theres now a large portion of collectors rather than enthusiasts involved (one can be both but being one doesnt by default imply the other).

this brings with it all the "baggage" of the collectors and when mixed in these circumstances with a product thats limited in supply, luxury in an economic sense and high value in terms of cost its just almost an explosion waiting to happen and thats just what we have seen. sadly these very same factors probably catch collectors interests just as much as they make great fuel for things going crazy. the high initial entry cost means that while you need quite a bit of disposable income to get on the ladder it also means that those that do can afford in some sense to fuel prices into a very strange orbit.

nanuq, i agree about contagious. ive been annoyed by the modern insert on my 5512 everytime i wear it for the last few months for no reason other than its not got thick numbers. its ridiculous.

as for the dial... have no fear. if it doesnt shift i will buy it just to prove myself right. ill be able to sell if for more in 6 months anyways

doc, you know that conversation from rolex is probably about right. i heard third hand a question directed to an ex rolex employee about some of the discrepancies on the vintage watches in a hope to clear them up or get some insight. the answer was a frank "look, when we built them no one though there was going to be people scrutinizing them and comparing everything, arguing over tiny details and sequence orders 40 years later. we just built watches. no one thought they would even be around 10 years later"

this always makes me laugh when i hear people arguing about tiny things essentially looking for or assuming science where there was none.

its all crazy but it doesnt help me get a milsub seeing through it