9/11: Lest the French Forget....a rant.

[Pugwash]

The point had been amply proved that none of this could have possibly been "a faux pas": as usual, the French media was falling all over itself doing what it does best - insulting America at a particularly sensitive moment.

France != French Media.

Sheesh, I thought we'd got past that one, or would you like me to go through Fox News' dirge and blame the whole of the US for it?

This obviously bothers you much more than the actual story merits. I'd sit down with a decent drink, a nice cigar and give it some thought. Why do you care that much about something this petty?

[eddhead]

Eh?11th September was a day the US, a friend and ally to most countries represented here, got hurt, and bad. No-one disputes this. You can't strawman all posts that disagree with you as "Oh, you're heartless therefore your opinions don't matter."So, one news channel showed news you didn't like and did it on a day that represents something different to you. What's the big deal? Sure, France 3 is probably not the US's best friend, but come on, they're not supporting your enemies or killing your people. Get some perspective on this.You need to try to see it from someone else's point of view. Someone that didn't see the rubble and smoke. Someone to whom this whole thing meant a lot less because they present the news every day and see this sort of thing the world over day in, day out. Working in the news will desensitise you to six year-old disasters.Sure, it was probably a faux pas showing the program that day, but it's not that big a deal.

I have "plenty of perspective on this", and to be clear, I do not expect the world to mourne to the same degree that US citizens do. In fact, I do not even expect them to note it. What I find completely unacceptable is the callous airing of a documentary highlighting the real or peceived atrocities of US armed forces on a day of national mourning in the US. Have a little respect.

And speaking of perspective the association of 7/7 to 9/11 is way off the mark. I realize that to anyone who lost a loved one any day of loss is tragic, and I am certainly not minimizing anyone's personal loss. But a from a more objective, macro level perspective they are not at all comparable.

On 9/11 4000 people lost their lives, hundreds or thousands of others saw their small businesses go under, and the economies on the NYC area generally, and downtown especially went into a tailspin we have still not recovered from.

You want perspective? Picture the simoultaneous attacks of 10 Downing Street, Canary Wharf, and the Parliment causing the loss of thousands of lives, and displacing hundreds of businesses, jobs, and residential apartments for extended periods of time.

That is your analogy.

But notwithstanding the difference in scope and dimension, I would find any similar programming targeted toward British armed forces in Iraq on 7/7 to be equally offensive

But that is not the point.

Ryannon started out by decrying the programming of France 3 on 9/11 and was immediatly told it was no big deal. Well it is a big deal.

[ryyannon]

France != French Media.

Sheesh, I thought we'd got past that one, or would you like me to go through Fox News' dirge and blame the whole of the US for it?

This obviously bothers you much more than the actual story merits. I'd sit down with a decent drink, a nice cigar and give it some thought. Why do you care that much about something this petty?

I'm used to the pettiness of French media.

It comes with the territory here.

I've never really equated the French with French media - as seen in the distinction between the two I made above.

What 'bothers' me goes far beyond what a few slimeballs decided to schedule for viewing in France on and around 9-11.

But like I say, useless to go there.

[eddhead]

double post

[Pugwash]

You want perspective? Picture the simoultaneous attacks of 10 Downing Street, Canary Wharf, and the Parliment causing the loss of thousands of lives, and displacing hundreds of businesses, jobs, and residential apartments for extended periods of time.

That is your analogy.

Like these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_February_19...th_Quay_bombing

We've had terrorist attacks on our soil before, which is why we don't have quite as much shock and awe over Sept. 11th as you do.

Ryannon started out by decrying the programming of France 3 on 9/11 and was immediatly told it was no big deal. Well it is a big deal.

We get that it's a big deal to you.

ps. Don't for one second assume that because we disagree with your reaction to this that we in any way don't care.

[eddhead]

Like these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_February_19...th_Quay_bombing

[\quote]

I am sorry, but you are still off on perspective by virtue of sheer numbers and long term impact. I would not put the Oklahoma bombing on par with the 9/11 attacks either for that matter. Tragic and abhorant yes but not of the same illk

quote name='Pugwash' date='Sep 18 2007, 03:18 PM' post='321405']

We've had terrorist attacks on our soil before, which is why we don't have quite as much shock and awe over Sept. 11th as you do.

As have we. There was the FALN bombing of Fraunces Tavern in the 70's, the bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma City in 1996, Various Unabomber escapades, and the first World Trade Center bombing in the vista hotel in 1993 orchestrated by Ramzi Yousef. All very tragic but again in terms of scope and macro level impact, they do not compare.

Look, I do not want to get into a debate about which is the worse attack. But if you think our reaction is based on our 'lack of experience' you are mistaken. I will go back to my original point. The France 3 telecast was tasteless under the circumstances, and any rationalization or defense of it is at the very east misguided.

ps. Don't for one second assume that because we disagree with your reaction to this that we in any way don't care.

I actually don't which is one reason why I was so taken back by the responses.

[eddhead]

[Pugwash]

I actually don't which is one reason why I was so taken back by the responses.

So, rather than considering the responses of those who disagreed as valid points that deserved investigating, you seethed for a week and laid into us?

I'm happy to debate this, but it's very difficult when the reactions from the other side are so clouded by emotion that people keep claiming to walk away in disgust only to come back so they can walk away in disgust again.

There are those amongst us that consider you're over-reacting. Your reaction to this is to get annoyed. Try to actually read what we're saying instead of clouding it with the red mist. Rather than explaining that you're outraged (we get it, we really do), how about discussing why you're outraged?

[docblackrock]

Against my better judgement (plus it's half time in Porto, Champions League)....

Edd, what is your issue then? I can understand Ry as he's "behind enemy lines", an American living in France, but even he says there's more to it than that, even if he reserves the right not to divulge why. But I don't get your indignation as to why a programme shown on a French TV channel matters that much to YOU.

You name several isolated incidents but the only one of which registered shock amongst the American nation as a whole was Oklahoma because of the symbolic nature of the target itself (the US Government) and the revelation that it was carried out by one of your own, maladjusted, neglected fellow Americans, with no real political or fanatical religious bent.

I'm sorry but I don't agree that it isn't "inexperience". 9/11 was quite literally "too close to home" and the shock was amplified by the failures in security and the feeling of "how could it happen HERE?". Take a step back for a moment, and would you really deny that?

What you don't seem to get it is in the UK, people of Pug's and my age (he has a few years on me ) literally grew up with the CONSTANT threat of terrorism, a concerted campaign dating back 30 years. Pug's list omits about 30 or 40 separate bombings almost all fatal and against civilian targets, far too many to list separately. Even a member of the Royal Family was assassinated. So you'll excuse us if it seems we're suffering from 'empathy fatigue' - it's not intentional nor is it malicious.

[Victoria]

But I don't get your indignation as to why a programme shown on a French TV channel matters that much to YOU.

There are many ways of answering this, but I'll just put it this way.

Once, I had the misfortune of watching a TV series in a South American country which was racist, to say the least, about black people. It was the full monty of images and preconceptions about blacks, including the "funny" way they talk, their lips, their noses. I don't need to go on, do I? We all know an insult when we hear one, hence the offence taken about France3's programming by people who don't live in France.

Just to note, in case you haven't noticed in the Wristies, Docblackrock, I'm white. TTBOMK, I have no black ancestors.

But I took great offence even though I'm not black, or Argentinian, or living in Argentina.

BTW, I too grew up around the time when pubs in London where being bombed right-and-left. Terrorism was no joke in our homeland, even though the IRA did have the..."decency"?...to phone in advanced warnings about their planned attacks. ETA do too.

Even though all of this is true, I was as stunned by the events of 9/11 as everyone else was in the US. Eddhead has already mentioned the various terrorist attacks on American soil, so your idea that Americans are unused to it, is false.

I would also add that what Americans lack in terms of terrorist attacks of the IRA kind we grew up in, we British lack in their school shootings experience, and the like (going postal).

That too counts as terrorism in my eyes.

Only people unaware of American pain about this would not count it. I think they would just harangue them about guns again...

[Pugwash]

Even though all of this is true, I was as stunned by the events of 9/11 as everyone else was in the US.

I was in France in 2001. The French were stunned, horrified and upset, like the Brits.

[Victoria]

I was in France in 2001. The French were stunned, horrified and upset, like the Brits.

Yes, indeed. Despite what media want you to believe about the world hating Americans, most people were stunned, horrified, immediately circling the wagons around the USA in sympathy.

It's just that if you have continued sympathy, you at least give the bitterness a rest on a day which is recent, and fresh in world history.

One programme from a bunch of France3 idiots does not a whole nation condemn. But it DOES show something else is at work there. I wonder how many people wrote in to complain to France3 about this poor choice of programming on that day?

In the US, and in the UK, we are whingers and shoot off letters, faxes, emails to newspapers, television stations, and politicians. Do the French? From my experience, no.

Hence, this is why this programming is condoned silently by its lack of populace response. It won't be the first time, nor the last, so poor Ryyannon and poor French people who have tolerate this force-feeding by the elites.

EDIT: Yes, I know about the "manifestations". That's how the French react. Greves, enquetes, chomages, etc. They have their way, we have ours.

[Pugwash]

One programme from a bunch of France3 idiots does not a whole nation condemn. But it DOES show something else is at work there. I wonder how many people wrote in to complain to France3 about this poor choice of programming on that day?

Fox news.

Do I have to explain this post?

[Victoria]

Fox news.

Do I have to explain this post?

I'll ignore the inference, because it's about political viewpoint.

But I'm fairly sure Fox News get a lot of emails, faxes, and letters of complaint too. Not all from outraged liberals, either.

One very small, but telling example:

When News Corps chairman, Rupert Murdoch, was going to publish, through the auspises of Judith Regan (no relation to President Reagan, for clarification), the book "If I did it, here is how it happened" by OJ Simpson, he got such a mass of negative viewer response, he conceded the point and backed down.

I'm willing to listen to anyone who can point out public pressure making French television execs buckle under pressure, and take out a programme they were going to air. Or book they were going to publicise.

Or maybe we can just concede the point that the France3 doc was in poor taste, and move on.

[ryyannon]

The editior (Judith Regan) was actually fired by the publishing house:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/16/business...nyt&emc=rss

Which is neither here nor there and proves nothing (I guess), but it does break the stalemate and gives a new spin to this thread....

Now just don't get me started on all the idiots in the EU (the media and the usual talking heads, ok, Pug? Not the good people of Europe, obviously - who predictably are only too happy to agree) blaming the U.S. for the potential meltdown of their banking and investment sectors.

Three full hours of this horsepoo on Arte tonight, plus all the Chicken Littles clucking away that "it's all the fault of the United States" on the evening news op/eds....

Like we twisted their arms to invest in the sub-prime mortgage market....

[eddhead]

Yes, indeed. Despite what media want you to believe about the world hating Americans, most people were stunned, horrified, immediately circling the wagons around the USA in sympathy.

It's just that if you have continued sympathy, you at least give the bitterness a rest on a day which is recent, and fresh in world history.

One programme from a bunch of France3 idiots does not a whole nation condemn. But it DOES show something else is at work there. I wonder how many people wrote in to complain to France3 about this poor choice of programming on that day?

In the US, and in the UK, we are whingers and shoot off letters, faxes, emails to newspapers, television stations, and politicians. Do the French? From my experience, no.

Hence, this is why this programming is condoned silently by its lack of populace response. It won't be the first time, nor the last, so poor Ryyannon and poor French people who have tolerate this force-feeding by the elites.

EDIT: Yes, I know about the "manifestations". That's how the French react. Greves, enquetes, chomages, etc. They have their way, we have ours.

And that in fact is the source of my complaint. I do not care that folks in Europe do not mark the date.. I don't expect that. .. I completely understand how it is less than eventfull for people who do not live in the US BUt France 3 was way out of line ... why is their no outrage directed toward France 3? Not only that, but when one of our members expressed outrage of his own, he was promptly informed that he was over reacting. He was not over reacting anymore than if the attack had occurred on French, or British or whatever soil.

[Pugwash]

I'll ignore the inference, because it's about political viewpoint.

As is France 3. You can indeed ignore the very heart of the debate if you want. It won't make it go away.

One obviously political documentary, shown on an obviously politically charged date and it's not about politics somewhere down the line? It might have been revenge for Freedom Fries after a respectable five-year moritorium, it might have been a move for the Muslim vote in Paris or it might have been to unify the racial tensions to a common enemy. Whatever it was, it was most likely political.

One thing is certain, they got the reaction they were looking for. Well done, it worked. Thanks for playing.

[docblackrock]

There are many ways of answering this, but I'll just put it this way.

Once, I had the misfortune of watching a TV series in a South American country which was racist, to say the least, about black people. It was the full monty of images and preconceptions about blacks, including the "funny" way they talk, their lips, their noses. I don't need to go on, do I? We all know an insult when we hear one, hence the offence taken about France3's programming by people who don't live in France.

Just to note, in case you haven't noticed in the Wristies, Docblackrock, I'm white. TTBOMK, I have no black ancestors.

But I took great offence even though I'm not black, or Argentinian, or living in Argentina.

BTW, I too grew up around the time when pubs in London where being bombed right-and-left. Terrorism was no joke in our homeland, even though the IRA did have the..."decency"?...to phone in advanced warnings about their planned attacks. ETA do too.

Even though all of this is true, I was as stunned by the events of 9/11 as everyone else was in the US. Eddhead has already mentioned the various terrorist attacks on American soil, so your idea that Americans are unused to it, is false.

I would also add that what Americans lack in terms of terrorist attacks of the IRA kind we grew up in, we British lack in their school shootings experience, and the like (going postal).

That too counts as terrorism in my eyes.

Only people unaware of American pain about this would not count it. I think they would just harangue them about guns again...

Your analogy about the South American programme is flawed as you watched/were subjected to it first hand (although I could point out you do have free will and presumably a remote control? ). In the same vein, Tintin in the Congo sold out last month here after complaints about its overt imperialistic racist tone, how do you explain that? Merely outrage? Until Ryannon brought it up, Im guessing Edd was blissfully unaware of the France 3 programme. Plus it's not his country, nor does he have any take on the political machinations going on there right now, disturbing though they may be.

C'mon, here we all are arguing about perspectives and the festering accusations about each other's supposedly allied and friendly countries. Like attending a dinner party where the host suspects you are already 'acquainted' with his wife several times, behind the civility lies only resentment and anger. I tell you, those supporting/encouraging/responsible for this current source of attacks must be firing their AK47s off in delight at all this bitching going on. It's just more power to them. I'd be more outraged about THAT type of behaviour than some insidious but largely irrelevant media slants.

Edd, 7/7 - tell me again how you differentiate and quantify that event NOT being "an attack on one of the world's greatest cities". And you talk about insults?

VB (unfortunate initials given our other recent 'export' to the US ) - although I do not see why you felt it necessary to refer to it in this context (it's NOT terrorism of the same kind), how can you say we lack "school shootings experience"? My god how uninformed are you? Did you watch the US Open at Flushing Meadow? See a certain Andy Murray yet again fail to live up to his potential? Why not ask him for his opinion on your statement? (I can imagine you Googling it right now). Or are you going to team up with Edd and play the numbers game again. I really hope not.

I don't mind rationale debate, but when someone tells me "I couldn't be more wrong" whilst spouting inaccuracies, that's the point where I bow out from continuing that dialogue before I say something I regret.

[Victoria]

As is France 3. You can indeed ignore the very heart of the debate if you want. It won't make it go away.

One obviously political documentary, shown on an obviously politically charged date and it's not about politics somewhere down the line? It might have been revenge for Freedom Fries after a respectable five-year moritorium, it might have been a move for the Muslim vote in Paris or it might have been to unify the racial tensions to a common enemy. Whatever it was, it was most likely political.

The difference is palpable -- one is a State-owned entity, the other (Fox News) is a private concern.

You can excuse the latter for its partisan tone, because at the end of the day, they are not the powers that be spouting such vile animosity on such a day, but just a bunch of journalistic yahoos, same as the rest, including CNN, and MSNBC. They all have agendas, and wish to get eyeballs.

But France3 has the imprimatur of offialdom behind them.

If I were a French journalist, I'd ask Nicolas Sarkozy what he thought of it. Might get you a blank stare back, since his TV viewing time is limited, but at least someone would've gone on the record as having asked the question.

But how are you going to bite the hand that feeds you? CNN and Fox News obviously don't have that concern.

One thing is certain, they got the reaction they were looking for. Well done, it worked. Thanks for playing.

Nah, this rebuttal won't wash. It was awful, and there was no excuse for it. Ryyanon's reaction is not at fault here. It is they who are at fault.

I'm sure others would say the same if Fox News had decided to broadcast a documentary about French collaboration with Nazis on Bastille Day or God forbid, a 9/11 type massacre one day in the offing.

And they would be right. It would be a pointed insult and there's no two ways about it.

[Victoria]

I don't mind rationale debate, but when someone tells me "I couldn't be more wrong" whilst spouting inaccuracies, that's the point where I bow out from continuing that dialogue before I say something I regret.

Perhaps for the best.

Your reply didn't elucidate anything, but really just made the point that "why should you care about something that happened half way around the world, that until now, you were blissfully unaware of, and didn't PERSONALLY involve you anyway?".

That's what Americans are always blamed for, for being ostriches. But when they get informed, then they're blamed for reacting to knowledge.

Frankly, we're (I'm now a naturalised US citizen) tired of these double standards and from now on, at least, I'm part of those that will speak up when I perceive unfairness.

I plan to be speaking up a lot.

[ryyannon]

Found by co-incidence, very long read, no comment:*

http://pajamasmedia.com/2007/09/paris_ligh..._heroes_dea.php

*Other than the fact that at the end of her piece, she too fixates only on Channel 3 - no mention of the real Carnival of the Insanities that was going on at the other channels I mentioned - and documented - above. So far, everyone seems to have mistaken the forest for just one tree....

[Victoria]

OMG! J. Robert Lilly...the Jessica Mitford of the prison system. Jesus H. Christ, now I get it.

Read this one day, mon vieux. I did years ago...

http://www.amazon.com/Face-cach%C3%A9e-gis...5849&sr=1-7

I already hear the retorts (not on this forum, necessarily). That why shouldn't the US know about war "atrocities" committed by them, like raping of civilians etc.

Okay, so show me a professor who is a fanatic about pointing out every negative aspect of his country's penal system, AND has written a book about how Russians raped their way up the Unter den Linden?

Let's be clear, Ryyannon.

There's NOTHING wrong with finding out about this. This too was history. As a Historian, I personally want to know about all aspects of history, whether or not there were Dr. Baumgartners or sadists amongst the American GIs.

But I'm just tired of history absolving or ignoring the crimes of other nations, because their recent history was much more in line with the politics they practise personally.

When you get France3 doing a documentary on the rape atrocities of Russian soldiers on Berlin women (and guess what, I have family members amongst them), let us know.

Until then, I officially revile France3. Yuck. Thank God I only have access to France2.

[docblackrock]

Perhaps for the best.

How delightfully condescending of you to say so. In honour of that, I cannot resist one last response.

Your reply didn't elucidate anything

To you, perhaps. Except to blow a hole in some of your biased comments and point out the repeated inaccuracies therein. But then I didn't expect you to acknowledge never mind accept that, not sure why, just an impression of the persona behind the moniker. For all your knowing observations about living in various countries, hitched up to the family wagon by all accounts, I am disappointed that such a privileged and likely expensive education seems largely lacking in application, beyond feeling unswervingly duty-bound to defend the apparent 'double standards' employed against your adopted country. At least I spend my time rationally defending my own profession against the pitch-fork brigade, whilst maintaining my belief that I am benefiting the greater good. Can you say the same? You should take a leaf out of Ry's measured and informative responses to this thread - after all I have no doubt he has far more reason and experience to debate these matters than you or I put together.

And for the record, I have never said I am coldly uninvolved either to the original event in this thread or to others mentioned, even those alluded to you by yourself. Not for the first time, you assume an awful lot - just because I don't make reference to personal involvement doesn't mean I'm an apathetic shoulder-shrugging cold fish. I just prefer not to cloud my reasoning with emotion. Occupational hazard perhaps.

There's NOTHING wrong with finding out about this. This too was history. As a Historian, I personally want to know about all aspects of history, whether or not there were Dr. Baumgartners or sadists amongst the American GIs. But I'm just tired of history absolving or ignoring the crimes of other nations, because their recent history was much more in line with the politics they practise personally.

I already said this in an earlier post, we have a responsibility to air such things if true, no matter how unpalatable the timing may be for some. As a historian (pro or am?), you'll also then appreciate that the US has somewhat of a history for failing to acknowledge past mistakes and events, from the civil rights movements in the 60s to the withdrawal from Kurdish Iraq in the First Gulf War as well as numerous friendly fire incidents in the Middle East. I cannot comment on France in this regard due to lack of insight but at least some of us hold our hands up (British Imperial Africa, the Cossack betrayal in WW2, apartheid South Africa) and admit "not our finest hour...". I just don't get that impression from the US. Carpet sweepers, up there with the best of them. It's almost a cultural thing, a default setting, the insurance companies' mantra "never admit blame!". I even see it clearly with otherwise-decent US colleagues of mine when it comes to 'issues management' and personal vs. collective responsibility - so quick they are to don their Teflon suits and go AWOL for the afternoon

That's what Americans are always blamed for, for being ostriches. But when they get informed, then they're blamed for reacting to knowledge. Frankly, we're (I'm now a naturalised US citizen) tired of these double standards and from now on, at least, I'm part of those that will speak up when I perceive unfairness.

How noble of you. If you feel so strongly why not send a strongly-worded communication to that effect to the French TV channel? It is you who says we Brits like to do such things ("Yours, Miffed [formerly] of Wantage"). Make your opinion known where it matters most, if it grates so much. This is, after all, merely an off-topic section on a watch forum, hardly a worthy oulet for your indignant righteousness.

I plan to be speaking up a lot.

Fine, whatever, as if we would dare stop you. Just remember sometimes less is more, as Samuel Johnson said "'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

[Victoria]

For all your knowing observations about living in various countries, hitched up to the family wagon by all accounts, I am disappointed that such a privileged and likely expensive education seems largely lacking in application

My reply to you was not in the least personal, Docblackrock.

I am constantly, irretrievably, and hopelessly surprised when people make it so. It smacks of something you've been ruminating about for some time; of bothering the heck out of you; and of rank jealousy.

To do so TODAY, given my personal circumstances, is disgusting beyond belief.

I won't stand for this. I apologised to you when I said something very personal about your girlfriend. That was rude, uncalled for, no matter if it was meant tongue-in-cheek.

Now, it's your turn. Please apologise to me about mentioning my family.

[ryyannon]

Play nice, kids: it's just the Internet -

These ad hominiculus attacks ain't doing nobody no good....