silvio Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 (edited) A good friend of mine told me, words have been long circulating inside the Rolex watchsmith and seller community that there is such a book. Issued by Rolex S.A. for every authorized service centre in the world (Rolex Service Center). So even a reputable Rolex dealer won't even know of its existence, only the main service watchsmith. It's big and encyclopedic - functions as a reference for authenticating a genuine Rolex, down to the tiniest part visible. The logical fact is that Rolex does offer and charge you for such authentication service, they have to read something as reference, right? Rumors said it in my local town that one guy actually own one photocopied bundle (don't ask me how he got it). Ridiculous as it may sounds, nobody have ever seen it as any queries will be almost habitually denied by the guy - a risk of lawsuit or legal breach to be ducked from perhaps? But the thing is this (old) guy can built you the best 'Bangkok Specials' there is (if you have the dough that is) and his knowledge is almost encyclopedic - suspiciously and respectively... Can anybody confirm that there is such a book? If it's real it would be such an asset to the community... ;-) Thanks for looking. Edited June 8, 2006 by silvio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 The stuff legends are made of... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Can anybody confirm that there is such a book? I went to get my copy by using the secret military tunnels under the city, but the alligators in the sewers that had grown huge by eating the blind white pigs fought me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jens Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 A good friend of mine told me, words have been long circulating inside the Rolex watchsmith and seller community that there is such a book. Issued by Rolex S.A. for every authorized service centre in the world (Rolex Service Center). So even a reputable Rolex dealer won't even know of its existence, only the main service watchsmith. It's big and encyclopedic - functions as a reference for authenticating a genuine Rolex, down to the tiniest part visible. The logical fact is that Rolex does offer and charge you for such authentication service, they have to read something as reference, right? Rumors said it in my local town that one guy actually own one photocopied bundle (don't ask me how he got it). Ridiculous as it may sounds, nobody have ever seen it as any queries will be almost habitually denied by the guy - a risk of lawsuit or legal breach to be ducked from perhaps? But the thing is this (old) guy can built you the best 'Bangkok Specials' there is (if you have the dough that is) and his knowledge is almost encyclopedic - suspiciously and respectively... Can anybody confirm that there is such a book? If it's real it would be such an asset to the community... ;-) Thanks for looking. I don't know - I'm not that familiar with the the watch business - but, from a general point of view I'm sure that such a reference exists. For watches like for any other technical product. And I don't think it's so mystical (or mythical) as some think it is. Service centres for watches, like any other other product like food processors, cameras, TV's, cars, airplanes a.s.o, need a service / technical manual to be able do perform repairs or service on a product. In these manuals product specifications and tolerances, service, repair and adjustment procedures are described, you find exploded views, parts lists and ordering codes for spares and much more. In short, it's a tool for the workshop to perform all kind of service and/or repairs on a product according to the manufacturer's specifications. And finally - if you are an owner of a product, the manufacturer will (at least in europe) have to have very good reason to refuse to give you the same information if you request it. In practice they won't refuse to give it, but as they determine the price you give up. jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 (edited) Knowledge is power! I could make a small fortune repairing television sets, washing machines and other household appliances if I could get hold of schematics and technical manuals for them as often the expense is in identifying an eqivalent to a blown component that costs pennies. When a component cannot be identified then the only alternative is to replace complete circuit boards, often making 'repairs' uneconomical. If the information in these manuals wasn't so closely guarded then the lifecycles of the products would be extended, thus lowering the manufacturers' revenue streams! Edited June 8, 2006 by r11co Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 I don't know - I'm not that familiar with the the watch business - but, from a general point of view I'm sure that such a reference exists. For watches like for any other technical product. Reread the original post. He's not talking about the service manuals, but he's talking about a mythical magical rep-spotter guide. Knowledge is power! I could make a small fortune repairing television sets, washing machines and other household appliances if I could get hold of schematics and technical manuals for them as often the expense is in identifying an eqivalent to a blown component that costs pennies, rather than having to replace complete circuit boards that make 'repairs' uneconomical. Really? Try google or p2p. There are manuals everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Really? Try google or p2p. There are manuals everywhere. Yeah, but never the one you are looking for, and rarely for anything less than two years old in design.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 My guess (and it is a guess) is that of course Rolex does provide a bible of schematics, technical and parts data for every watch. I have seen it for other brands and it is typically a loose leaf notebook or books so that the Authorized watchsmith has what he needs to make appropriate repairs and order parts and can update it as new watches come out. I don't know if it still exists but I remember stopping into the old Rolex service center in the Rolex building in New York. On one person's desk there were several green notebooks with ROLEX etched in gold on the binder. I don't know if that service center exists anymore. The liklihood that it has anything to do with spotting reps is pretty low. Although it would be useful to have when perfecting reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 The liklihood that it has anything to do with spotting reps is pretty low. Although it would be useful to have when perfecting reps. ... and this is where the whole 'secret book' theory falls apart. When Old Man Smithers the watchmaker pops his clogs, the weekend trainee could easily swipe the Codex-Rolexus and sell it to a chinese factory for a month's wages. No-one would be any the wiser and we'd all know about this book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 a reference for authenticating a genuine Rolex, down to the tiniest part visible. The logical fact is that Rolex does offer and charge you for such authentication service, they have to read something as reference, right? Serial Number, Service History ... you know immediately. Authentication isn't that difficult, just time-consuming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jens Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Reread the original post. He's not talking about the service manuals, but he's talking about a mythical magical rep-spotter guide. Yes, I understand that. My point was that a detailed technical manual might be accurate enough to be used as a reference in many cases. Like most, I don't think a pure rep-spotter guide at workshop level does exixst. According to the Rolex site, 3000 technicians are authorized by them; with that amount of people you cannot keep secrets. On the other hand, is authentication done by the workshops, or do you have to send the watch to the HQ, like you have to for some other brands ? In the HQ, there is for sure plenty of rep. info, maybe compiled into a guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 In the HQ, there is for sure plenty of rep. info, maybe compiled into a guide. Still sounds a far cry from a Codex-Rolexus passed in secret amongst the trained cogniscenti ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Authentication is only performed by SC's, and I believe only by a very small group qualified to make such authentications. For what it's worth, there is no known rep spotter's guides, or bibles, per se that Rolex S.A. issues out. Rather, there are archives and records of serial numbers (case and movement), reference numbers, identified regions and/or specific dealer locations that the watches were shipped to, etc. This is why some SC's can make certain authentications, while others cannot. A good example is the Mil Sub (5517)- Rolex UK is qualified to make such an authentication as the Mil Subs were specific only to that region, and Rolex UK would have the history on those watches as that is where they originated from. Rolex NYC could not make an authentication on such a piece as they have no information on these specific watches. The authentication process itself is performed by an in-house specialist- Cross checking of serial numbers, reference numbers, examination of parts all takes place by a small group of people within the SC. Between the referencing of records as well as physical examination of the watch, authentication can be given. And, yes- I believe that those responsible for authentication can provide proper authentication of parts by examining tell tale characteristics that cannot be duplicated- Things like font, dial printing methods, dial bases, etc. As good as some replications are, they simply cannot duplicate certain characteristics, unless the same methods were used to produce the replication- And THAT is what is a heavily guarded secret at Rolex. Besides... Handle enough Rolex watches day in-day out for years of your life, and you develop not only an eye for such things, but also a feel. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jens Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Knowledge is power! I could make a small fortune repairing television sets, washing machines and other household appliances if I could get hold of schematics and technical manuals for them as often the expense is in identifying an eqivalent to a blown component that costs pennies. When a component cannot be identified then the only alternative is to replace complete circuit boards, often making 'repairs' uneconomical. If the information in these manuals wasn't so closely guarded then the lifecycles of the products would be extended, thus lowering the manufacturers' revenue streams! For the products you mention, your description is not correct. First of all, service manuals for products still within the service period (8 years for TV's, less for cheap products) can be bougt the same way as any other spare part, you simply contact the national org. of the brand or his spare parts distributor. Some suppliers provide paper manuals, others in electronic format on CD ROM (covering a range of products). But the info is in no way guarded. Second: Noone, exept for the PC industry, replaces complete circuit boards because - you said it - it's uneconomical. But the most important factor to why repairs are uneconomical is the price errosion of new products. In the consumer electronics sector, this is as high as 8-20 % per year in average, due to this most consumers prefer to buy a new product (with more features) instead of a repair. Third: I don't think you could make a lot of money (exept for washing machines and the like), almost noone in this business does that. Repairs are, due to technology and production methods, much more complicated than only 5 years ago, and requires huge investments in equipment. The old soldering iron is outdated, just to mount a component now requires infrared solder stations at a cost of USD 5000 (basic and in practice unusable) and up. Only those with very high volumes can make money in this sector nowadays. So, better stick to watches And I now realize that this should be in the OT section jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Second: Noone, exept for the PC industry, replaces complete circuit boards because - you said it - it's uneconomical. Or the telecoms industry ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jens Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Authentication is only performed by SC's, and I believe only by a very small group qualified to make such authentications. For what it's worth, there is no known rep spotter's guides, or bibles, per se that Rolex S.A. issues out. Rather, there are archives and records of serial numbers (case and movement), reference numbers, identified regions and/or specific dealer locations that the watches were shipped to, etc. This is why some SC's can make certain authentications, while others cannot. A good example is the Mil Sub (5517)- Rolex UK is qualified to make such an authentication as the Mil Subs were specific only to that region, and Rolex UK would have the history on those watches as that is where they originated from. Rolex NYC could not make an authentication on such a piece as they have no information on these specific watches. The authentication process itself is performed by an in-house specialist- Cross checking of serial numbers, reference numbers, examination of parts all takes place by a small group of people within the SC. Between the referencing of records as well as physical examination of the watch, authentication can be given. And, yes- I believe that those responsible for authentication can provide proper authentication of parts by examining tell tale characteristics that cannot be duplicated- Things like font, dial printing methods, dial bases, etc. As good as some replications are, they simply cannot duplicate certain characteristics, unless the same methods were used to produce the replication- And THAT is what is a heavily guarded secret at Rolex. Besides... Handle enough Rolex watches day in-day out for years of your life, and you develop not only an eye for such things, but also a feel. R I guess this is exactly how it is. Very good . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonton2000 Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Well, if one is ever found, im sure we'll all be having a whip round to buy it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvio Posted June 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 (edited) I went to get my copy by using the secret military tunnels under the city, but the alligators in the sewers that had grown huge by eating the blind white pigs fought me off. lol... Does sounds like an old wives tale, isn't it? I kept dreaming the old polex fairy to come up with an enlightment - but that damn gator keep eating my toe off... Edited June 9, 2006 by silvio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvio Posted June 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 The liklihood that it has anything to do with spotting reps is pretty low. Although it would be useful to have when perfecting reps. Bang on kruzer, that's just what I have in mind. To the benefit of perfecting our own projects. But do keep in mind that an Authorized Rolex SC charges you some 50$ or so for authentication service, which adds to the fact the need of some reference of sort. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvio Posted June 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Authentication is only performed by SC's, and I believe only by a very small group qualified to make such authentications. For what it's worth, there is no known rep spotter's guides, or bibles, per se that Rolex S.A. issues out. Rather, there are archives and records of serial numbers (case and movement), reference numbers, identified regions and/or specific dealer locations that the watches were shipped to, etc. This is why some SC's can make certain authentications, while others cannot. A good example is the Mil Sub (5517)- Rolex UK is qualified to make such an authentication as the Mil Subs were specific only to that region, and Rolex UK would have the history on those watches as that is where they originated from. Rolex NYC could not make an authentication on such a piece as they have no information on these specific watches. The authentication process itself is performed by an in-house specialist- Cross checking of serial numbers, reference numbers, examination of parts all takes place by a small group of people within the SC. Between the referencing of records as well as physical examination of the watch, authentication can be given. And, yes- I believe that those responsible for authentication can provide proper authentication of parts by examining tell tale characteristics that cannot be duplicated- Things like font, dial printing methods, dial bases, etc. As good as some replications are, they simply cannot duplicate certain characteristics, unless the same methods were used to produce the replication- And THAT is what is a heavily guarded secret at Rolex. Besides... Handle enough Rolex watches day in-day out for years of your life, and you develop not only an eye for such things, but also a feel. R Ubiq, thanks for your opinion. That's the closest idea as I meant it is. Heavy reference-guided cross-checking from millions of documented archives (which is the so-called 'bible') and meticulous details such as (i.e.) left lugs curve angle and exact dimension compared to the right one in a 1974 issued 1680 (or such I imagine). Wouldn't it be a hazard to the old Geneva S.A. if it falls to the hands of the good fellowship of the O-ring? ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvio Posted June 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Yes, I understand that. My point was that a detailed technical manual might be accurate enough to be used as a reference in many cases. Like most, I don't think a pure rep-spotter guide at workshop level does exixst. According to the Rolex site, 3000 technicians are authorized by them; with that amount of people you cannot keep secrets. On the other hand, is authentication done by the workshops, or do you have to send the watch to the HQ, like you have to for some other brands ? In the HQ, there is for sure plenty of rep. info, maybe compiled into a guide. Jen, I'm not sure that the reference acts as a rep-spotter or rep-guide, but I think it falls more to the category of documented technical reference as mentioned by Ubiq. An extensive & comprehensive data archive even old wives...errr..watchsmith wet their beds at night for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Ubiq, thanks for your opinion. [...] Wouldn't it be a hazard to the old Geneva S.A. if it falls to the hands of the good fellowship of the O-ring? ;-) When you're dealing with Ubiquitous, there's a difference between "opinion" and "fact". If you imagine the archives as a library of monks as opposed to a database on a CD, you'll see it's much harder to have a library of monks fall in your lap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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