ID Cards

[TeeJay]

I'd forgotten about passive readers... Indeed, some have speculated that the Oyster system on the London Underground (sounds like a political movement to me too, Otto ) is a means of tracking people and their spending habits.

As above, I wouldn't have a problem carrying ID, but I don't trust the government to manage the data properly.

Indeed, unchecked and illegal immigration will not be handled by ID cards, what would help with that situation, is decent border security and policies, and a government with the cojones to actually stand by those policies, rather than bending over backwards to just let anyone into the country. I love the Australian system. If it can work for them, it could work here.

Also, Scottish and English law are different, and most legislation acknowledges that. England, does not actually have its own assembly/parliament

[Victoria]

As above, I wouldn't have a problem carrying ID, but I don't trust the government to manage the data properly.

As you can see, people have a problem with the efficiency of government to maintain citizen records. This is truly a first in British history, the land of bureaucratic record-keeping, and genealogy since the Domesday Book.

And goes to prove the social argument that homogeneous societies have less issues like these.

[Raijor]

In Canada we do not need Id cards our govt does not fear terrorists or illegal immigrants. Full health care right was given to a Dialysis patient who entered Canada illegally in order to obtain medical care here rather than at home in India.

Think of Canada as a big multi-cultural pizza ... some thing of everything in the topping mix. Instead of identity cards Canada's governors have created legislation and bureaucratic entities to search out and capture and tax money from the underground economy and from profits of crime under the guise of stopping fund raising for terrorist organizations. This is Bovine Scatology. The Tamil Tigers have been openly raising money in Canada for years and high level politicians including a former Canadian Prime Minister have attended their fund raising events in order to pander for votes from that ethnic community.

In Canada it is all about taxing the underground economy. There is now actual legislation and an organization that tracks suspicious financial transactions. As this point Realtors, Accountants, Bankers and Financial Planners including Stock Brokers and Mutual Fund salespeople and Insurance Agents are required by law to report any suspicious transaction and its participants to the new govt body named FINTRAC. It is a crime not to report a suspicious transaction.

FINTRAC initially attempted to include Lawyers in their cadre of state spies but were conjuncted by the courts from doing so (attorney / client privilege trumped the govt argument of national security) ... think East Germany and the Stasi Secret Police here. Currently, FINTRAC is working on expanding its spy network to include Auto Dealers, Casinos and Jewelers. Its all about the money not the safety of the citizenry in Canada. It is about squeezing every dollar of un-taxed money out of the economy. ID cards can not make things any worse than they are here already. The Canadian govt is spying on its citizens and has forced who professions to become state agents. Some of us are taxed in excess of 60% to 70% of our earnings when all levels of govt taxation are taken into account. Is it any wonder that some people would rather hide some of their earnings from the govt. Of course the govt tells us if we have nothing to hide we should not fear opening up our books and lives to it.

The nanny State is here and now Big Brother has begun to watch us closely in Canada. State ID cards are likely coming but I believe that Canada's large and diverse ethnic immigrant population will put up a serious fight and that may be why we don't have them already. Ethnic groups in Canada have a lot political clout.

[TeeJay]

As you can see, people have a problem with the efficiency of government to maintain citizen records. This is truly a first in British history, the land of bureaucratic record-keeping, and genealogy since the Domesday Book.

Indeed, I think the problem (like everything wrong with the UK at present,) is one of an incompetent government.

And goes to prove the social argument that homogeneous societies have less issues like these.

Indeed, I quite agree. Strangely enough, historically, when cultures and countries were more homogenous, there was not the 'racism' which exists now. Sure, countries/cultures might go to war with each other, but, on the occasions when the did trade with each other (Renaissance Venice, for example) there was none of the petty bigotry which exists today. People were just accepted as they were. It's a shame that today's concept of 'tollerance' doesn't take a few pointers from history's example.

[Victoria]

Indeed, I quite agree. Strangely enough, historically, when cultures and countries were more homogenous, there was not the 'racism' which exists now. Sure, countries/cultures might go to war with each other, but, on the occasions when the did trade with each other (Renaissance Venice, for example) there was none of the petty bigotry which exists today. People were just accepted as they were. It's a shame that today's concept of 'tollerance' doesn't take a few pointers from history's example.

Racism is a modern construct, as you know, TeeJay.

I'm not one of those people who believe that yesteryear was rosier than today, or that governments were more accomplished than the ones now.

I know you weren't implying the opposite, but we are far more tolerant as a species today, than EVER before.

So it wasn't racism back then, the concept that your race made you superior to others. But it was...

Greeks/Romans: Superior Civilisation

Middle Ages: Superior Religion

Renaissance: Superior Culture

Enlightenment: Superior Science

Industrial Revolution: Superior Economy

Victorian Era: Superior Nations

Modern World: Superior Race

It's always something.

[Pugwash]

Modern World: Superior Race

Nope, it's Superior Personal Wealth.

For instance, George Bush isn't at all racist, he just hates the poor.

[Victoria]

For instance, George Bush isn't at all racist, he just hates the poor.

Thank you, Kanye West.

[DemonSlayer]

As TeeJay mentioned, I am also a fan of the Australian system when it comes to immigration amongst other things and it does seem to work well over there. The issue about whether or not these ID cards can help stamp out terrorism, well as I mentioned earlier that the majority of the bombers on July 2005 bombings where actually born and bred in the UK, and as Pugwash mentioned that in Spain they do have an ID card system implemented there but that did not prevent the Madrid bombings.

I personally don't think that the UK government will be able to create such cards that are flawless in the sense that they can't be tampered with or replicated or anything of that sort. If these cards fell into the wrong hands, who knows what that might lead to, and I'm certainly not 100% confident that the UK government will bend over backwards to maintain safety over all the personal information on UK residents stored in some computer somewhere.

Edited January 27, 2008 by DemonSlayer

[TeeJay]

Racism is a modern construct, as you know, TeeJay.

I'm not one of those people who believe that yesteryear was rosier than today, or that governments were more accomplished than the ones now.

I know you weren't implying the opposite, but we are far more tolerant as a species today, than EVER before.

So it wasn't racism back then, the concept that your race made you superior to others. But it was...

I wouldn't say that today's world is very tollerant at all. People might like to 'talk the talk' about tollerance, but when it comes down to it, people (who would claim to be tollerant) can still be downright bigoted about people 'not like them'. I've noticed particularly so with political opinions, where, people can claim to be 'left-wing' and 'liberal', but, if anyone has an opinion different to theirs, rather than saying "Okay, I don't agree with your opinion, but I respect your right to have it," they get incredibly hostile, and at times, downright vindictive. I was recently reading on a forum where people were slamming the US Presidential candidates, yet, for all their bitching and moaning, none of these supposedly 'free-thinking intellectuals' (I prefer to call them '[censored]' ) could actually come up with any better ideas than the candidates were proposing. I mean, where's the point in criticizing something, but not being able to offer up an alternative?

As you say, a homogenous society certainly has less viewpoints to clash, and history certainly shows that to be the case. That said, anyone who says that nowadays, is always jumped on by the Politically Correct Elite, and branded a racisisisisisist

As I said above, Australia doesn't seem to have half the problem with illegal immigrants that other countries do (okay, sure, it might be a continent/island) but the policies themselves are in place, and effectively enforced, where countries like the US (supposedly) want to have 'immigrant amnestys', and the UK, well, New Labour just don't give an Ess Haitch One Tee any more, and will let in anyone, regardless of their qualifications or suitability.

[Edit to add]

I'm all for imigration, as long as it's done legally. Illegal imigration, and left-wing attitudes that it should be tollerated, are just a slap in the face of the countless millions of people who legally emigrate somewhere.

Edited January 27, 2008 by TeeJay

[DemonSlayer]

ERROR

Edited January 27, 2008 by DemonSlayer

[DemonSlayer]

ERROR

Edited January 27, 2008 by DemonSlayer

[TeeJay]

As TeeJay mentioned, I am also a fan of the Australian system when it comes to immigration amongst other things and it does seem to work well over there. The issue about whether or not these ID cards can help stamp out terrorism, well as I mentioned earlier that the majority of the bombers on July 2005 bombings where actually born and bred in the UK, and as Pugwash mentioned that in Spain they do have an ID card system implemented there but that did not prevent the Madrid bombings.

I personally don't think that the UK government will be able to create such cards that are flawless in the sense that they can't be tampered with or replicated or anything of that sort. If these cards fell into the wrong hands, who knows what that might lead to, and I'm certainly not 100% confident that the UK government will bend over backwards to maintain safety over all the personal information on UK residents stored in some computer somewhere.

Absolutely. I think, at the end of the day, the prime concern for ID cards is, not so much who's carrying them, but who's managing the information, and how. The government wants all the information stored centrally. I think that's what's known as 'putting all your eggs in one basket'

[Victoria]

Absolutely. I think, at the end of the day, the prime concern for ID cards is, not so much who's carrying them, but who's managing the information, and how. The government wants all the information stored centrally. I think that's what's known as 'putting all your eggs in one basket'

This is the Frankensteinian question we've had to contend with, since the Industrial Revolution when machines superceded men.

It's really not that we don't trust our goverments. It's that we are not sure of our technologies. They're scary, and seem to run away with ideas before our laws to protect us are in place. Isn't that what those who are opposed to IDs, have really been saying above?

Oh, BTW, forgot to add:

Post-Modern World: Superior Technology

[DemonSlayer]

Maybe I've watched too many movies and read too much UFO stuff, but I really don't think the government have our best interests at heart

I'm not saying all, but certainly some governments who portray themselves to be the all righteous then go and do things which portrays them as the opposite. I mean, we can't deny that there are many things that are witheld from us. The topic of UFO's being a classic one, we know that theres something that governments of the world know something is going on, but have lied to cover up things, the Roswell case being an example, I don't know how many times the US government has changed their story about what happened on that day, its incredible.

Don't get me started on the CIA

[TeeJay]

This is the Frankensteinian question we've had to contend with, since the Industrial Revolution when machines superceded men.

It's really not that we don't trust our goverments. It's that we are not sure of our technologies. They're scary, and seem to run away with ideas before our laws to protect us are in place. Isn't that what those who are opposed to IDs, have really been saying above?

Oh, BTW, forgot to add:

Post-Modern World: Superior Technology

*Thinks about it...*

Noo, it's definitely a case that I don't trust the government

The problem with 'laws', is that criminals don't care about them, and simply ignore them. Laws only work on the law-abiding. People all have their own reasons for being against ID cards, and, in a similar vein, reminds me of opinions espoused by some American Left-Wingers, against the Patriot Act, and how it infringed their rights to privacy etc. Okay, yes, I agree, it does infringe constitutional rights, and that is not right. But, why are people so afraid of scrutiny? What are they afraid will be revealed about them?

I'd be quite happy living here:

Whoops, happiness is an emotional response, I've missed my Interval... Time for my Prozium.

Seriously though, I've no problem with Big Brother watching me. Although I can understand why others might.

[TeeJay]

Maybe I've watched too many movies and read too much UFO stuff, but I really don't think the government have our best interests at heart

I'm not saying all, but certainly some governments who portray themselves to be the all righteous then go and do things which portrays them as the opposite. I mean, we can't deny that there are many things that are witheld from us. The topic of UFO's being a classic one, we know that theres something that governments of the world know something is going on, but have lied to cover up things, the Roswell case being an example, I don't know how many times the US government has changed their story about what happened on that day, its incredible.

Don't get me started on the CIA

If only it was just UFOs that showed that to be the case, but it's pretty much everything which shows the governments just don't really care about us. For example. Drugs. Governments say don't do drugs, drugs are bad, drugs will %&^*( up your health. Okay. Sounds reasonable, but, if that's the case, why is the NHS teetering on bancruptcy and about to collapse, with pensioners dying in corridors, and people going to hospitals getting infectected with MRSA and winding up with the shits?? So much for concern about our health! No, the sad fact is the government clamps down on drugs, because they don't like the fact that they can't tax it, and are just [censored] at the lost revinue

[Victoria]

The topic of UFO's being a classic one, we know that theres something that governments of the world know something is going on

The only UFO I believe in is Madonna.

[Raijor]

I am only able to comment on Canada because I have no real first hand knowledge about life elsewhere other than as a tourist. Personally, I do not see any benefit to having a National ID card system here. I am not sure that it would solve more problems than it would create. When the Canadian government brought in a National firearm registry the cost of administration spiraled into the Billions of dollars and a whole new govt bureaucracy we created. Homicides by firearms have not gone down in Canada since its inception. I imagine a similar kind of bloated excessive cost bureaucracy would be created for a national ID card program here as well. Of course if someone wants a well paying, tenured for life civil service job, a National ID program would create plenty of those positions and likely have them located in the home riding of the sitting Prime Minister who brought the program in.

[Pugwash]

Seriously though, I've no problem with Big Brother watching me. Although I can understand why others might.

Ok, and if trafficking in counterfeit goods became illegal tomorrow, would you give it up? Oops, it already is. Please present your ID card and licenses for all your watches. Member of any religious groups? We know you are, and we know that groups you have ties to are involved in terrorism. You are what the UK calls "Potential Terrorist", much like anyone with a 70s punk collection.

It's not about Big Brother watching you, it's about Civil Servants with personal agendas having access to Big Brother's video tapes. One mad lefty/fascist civil servant (or agent of the government, gas board, library system, etc.) with a personal agenda can access any information they desire and profile the population any way they want.

You don't have to have a guilty conscience to know this doesn't really appear to have any positive benefit for the cost.

[Victoria]

You don't have to have a guilty conscience to know this doesn't really appear to have any positive benefit for the cost.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think TeeJay is in favour of National IDs?

Are we debating amongst each other, for the sake of debating, when we agree?

[hambone]

If it can be proven that strict enforcment of ID cards will eliminate fear, terror, murder and mayhem, then do it. Otherwise forget it.

[Pugwash]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think TeeJay is in favour of National IDs?

Are we debating amongst each other, for the sake of debating, when we agree?

I was pointing out why he should have a problem with Big Brother watching him.

[TeeJay]

Ok, and if trafficking in counterfeit goods became illegal tomorrow, would you give it up? Oops, it already is. Please present your ID card and licenses for all your watches.

That's a bit of a false statement though, because ownership of reps is not illegal. Besides, what would they do to me if it was? Fine me? Put me in 'debtors gaol'? C'mon, the courts try and avoid custodial sentances whereever possible because the jails are full to capacity (if not over-crowded). They've got bigger fish to fry.

Member of any religious groups? We know you are, and we know that groups you have ties to are involved in terrorism. You are what the UK calls "Potential Terrorist", much like anyone with a 70s punk collection.

And I'm sure my name is on a list, and someone has the pleasure of reading my emails and forums posts. As I said before though, it doesn't bother me. I have nothing to hide (other than a few hookey watches, my ownership of which is not a crime anyway) so I don't fear scrutiny.

It's not about Big Brother watching you, it's about Civil Servants with personal agendas having access to Big Brother's video tapes. One mad lefty/fascist civil servant (or agent of the government, gas board, library system, etc.) with a personal agenda can access any information they desire and profile the population any way they want.

You don't have to have a guilty conscience to know this doesn't really appear to have any positive benefit for the cost.

I quite agree, and that's why I don't trust the government to manage the data, and why I think it shouldn't all be kept in one database.

I was pointing out why he should have a problem with Big Brother watching him.

But I don't. As I said, I might not have a problem with Big Brother watching me, but I can still understand why others might. Perhaps I'm just someone who craves the stability of a totally dictated and monitored environment... Time for my next shot of Prozium, I think...

[Victoria]

I was pointing out why he should have a problem with Big Brother watching him.

Understood, but in effect, he's against National IDs whether or not he's comfortable with Big Brother.

It just so happens that he is.

Life is funny. We all arrive at similar conclusions through very different paths.

[narikaa]

Terrorism?

What if the cuddly government doesnt keep my data safe?

GROW UP!

Its when they USE the facility that the headaches start

For the hard of thinking.......suppose one of your inbound packets gets opened, seized, returned, whatever and the diligent blue shirt annotates your file on the DB. You would undoubtely be 'flagged' everytime you appeared on an international flight manifest or trotted your wonderful ID card past a passsive reading post. So no more march thru the green channel after your hols for you #675435788998/SMUGGLER.

Now this is just the most simple, basic usage that took me a second to imagine - what a legion of petty minded bureaucrats could come up with is frightenning......... 'I do no wrong it cant affect me' pu-leeeease

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