mezzanine Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Well....this came about as a result of a bad feeling I got a couple weeks when a friend here asked me about a NOS 7836 he had just scored for a wicked deal. Understand that I thought hard about whether I should post this before contacting him, but I don't think it would impact negatively on his ability to recover his investment, so I'm going to put it out there anyways. As far as I know, the conventional wisdom from the members who follow the vintage rolex's is that there are no folded replica bracelets. This is not true. I have done some research and been able to determine that there are, indeed, fake folded replica 7836 bracelets usually coming from Hong Kong that are currently being sold successfully on the open market as authentic rolex. This is an ironic situation in the sense that some of the folks here may have got burned in trying to mod their watches with what they believed was a genuine part. I won't get too detailed into how I've been able to reach this conclusion at this point, I wanted to get the message out there in case there was anyone else who may have been at risk of getting burned- I know there are a few of us who have been doing the hunt for genuine bracelets recently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carlsbadrolex Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 GREAT... Now we have people trying to sell US fakes as genuine! I had quite often wondered why this bracelet had not been replicated. If I recall correctly, my very first replica Sub came on a folded link bracelet. Of course this was back in the mid 80's... Are these replica 7836 being sold on the bay, or in the vintage forums that we seem to be attracted to? The last 7836 I saw for sale was near $1k, so I sure as hell hope it wasnt a fake. And if it was, I wonder if they person was aware of it. If someone can make a replica of this, I wish they would make it available to us at a reasonable price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 I've was just tellling CBR via PM that I've been going through member reviews and looking at who I may have to message with some bad news...one is pretty much guaranteed fake. I've confirmed Oli's is real on his 1655 and I *believe* the one that I got this afternoon is real as well, but all of the fakes are coming from Hong Kong, and when I realized that mine is also coming from Hong Kong, I started to get even more nervous. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I didn't really even look at the pics, other than to see real briefly what type of condition it was in, as I was convinced it wasn't going to last and wasn't going to start getting picky. So you can imagine my thought process as I was going back to check the pics to see if it was gen with the assumption I was going to be in for a disappointment. The bracelet in the pics that I was given is genuine, but if I'm going to receive the one in the picture is another question. As I mentioned in the first post, the problem isn't being able to identify the bracelets as fake so much as it's even knowing that there are fake folded link bracelets out there market place right now. The ones that are fake are usually being sold as NOS (suspicious in itself, considering the age of the bracelets and their demand) and are mostly on the Bay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stilty Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 yes, I've been following that battle over there. Seems to be a lot of "experts" over there that are taking a stand and are not willing to budge either way. One member is dead certain that Stan's bracelets is a fake, and another is dead certain that Stan's is legit. My bracelet is identical to Stan's... so the jury is still out for me. Unless Stan comes out and says his is a fake, then that is when I will know for sure. I've shown mine to a collector and was told it was genuine. But who really knows??? Apparently, even the experts can be fooled. All I know is it wasn't cheap, but it wasn't $1K either. If it is in fact proven to be a fake, I will talk with my seller and see if I can get a rebate of some sort, but I doubt that is likely. I won't be returning it as it is a nice bracelet either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 It's funny Stilty, you beat me to the punch, but I was just about to post something to that effect. I'm holding my position that it's fake based on our best evidence at this point- and there's a great deal of debate about this in the gen community right now as this is a very recent development, they just caught onto it quicker than we did, cause they're always dealing with genuine parts- we're only occasionally using them. There's no question, though, that this is an ambiguous issue- so I could very easily be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Just to try to flesh this out a little more, here's the problem: The bracelets that are being sold are all coming out of Hong Kong, and almost all of them are being sold NOS. The reasons for the skepticism regarding their authenticity centers on a few central issues. The first is the inside of the clasp, and the stamping of the words. Here's a 'conventional' genuine: Here's the 'NOS' clasp: The 'steelinox' is aligned in a strange position on the NOS clasp and the stamping of the letters is not typical of Rolex, but looks like a lighter engraving method than on typical clasps. The alignment of the letters looks a little off. When I look at the coronet on the inside of the NOS clasp, it looks a little funky, but that's a little more subjective. The outside of the clasp has the coronet stamped on it. On the genuine, the rolex spikes are long and extend down to the lower oval elipse. The NOS example has a different looking coronet: If you notice also the position of the coronet is much further down on the clasp than on the 'conventional' one.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Here's the 'NOS' clasp: Interesting. Can you post some pics showing more of the inside folded links as well as the inside of the end links? From this pic, your NOS bracelet looks different from links on gen bracelets, & I have a feeling the same will be the case for the end links, which may make it relatively easy to separate the wheat from the chaff when perusing ebay & other sites in search of the gen article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 I'm going to try to dig up some more pics guys- another thing, the center links on the fakes are too thick in the middle, I think. This is all a very imprecise process... The fakes are also a little thicker. I was worried Freddy when I first looked at the bracelet on one of your Daytona's, but you're all good unless I'm mistaken- and the way I was able to tell was with the engraving of the numbers on yours as well as the thickness and the fact it's not NOS. Also, Oli has really hit the nail on the head. I'm not going to assume anything is real anymore. Another point I would add is that IF these 7836 really were NOS, I wouldn't imagine that the legion of folks who do little else but collect these rare and valuable parts would be letting them slip by for anything less than $1000 US. That's why I immediately assumed I'd been scammed when I got a good deal on one and then learned that there was this problem of ambiguity. Take a look at the coronet's on the clasps in pictured above. The oval at the bottom of the emblem looks too rounded to me, but then again, I've seen some genuine ones that look just as questionable.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 A good point to note is the(PM sent) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Freddy, I think this is the picture that you were asking for- one showing the underside of the links. Here is an abbreviated list of the supposed differences: The coronet on the clasp is wrong. The location of the coronet on the clasp is wrong. The coronet on the clasp blades is wrong. The alignment of PATENTED & REGISTERED and SWISS MADE is wrong. It should be like a rail dial with '&' and 'S' on the left and 'R' and 'M' on the right. The STEELINOX stamping is wrong. The metal of the links is overpressed in the middle of each link. This is most apparent in the centre link sections. The 7836 stamp does not look correct but I would need better images to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 What I see in your pictures is obviously not gen, but it would still help to see pictures of the insides of the links as that would make identification easier. Still, if these folded link reps are made better than the riveted rep bracelets, they might be a good alternative for vintage reps that come with rivets. When buying gens (especially Rolex), always buy the seller before you buy the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 What I see in your pictures is obviously not gen, but it would still help to see pictures of the insides of the links as that would make identification easier. Still, if these folded link reps are made better than the riveted rep bracelets, they might be a good alternative for vintage reps that come with rivets. When buying gens (especially Rolex), always buy the seller before you buy the part. This could be one of those very rare scenarios where even some of the pros have got fooled by the cleverness of the rep-makers. Usually I would agree that buying your seller is sufficient to ensure safety, but in this case, one of the reasons it came to light was because it had been sneaking by even some of the most respected sellers in the genuine community. I agree with your point about potentially using these if they were to filter down to our market- but as it stands right now, I think that these have been introduced in such a way as to try to pass them off as gen for as long possible. I'm not sure if they'll ever be available in a more widestream channel, or at least probably not until they stop going for nearly 1k on the bay.... I believe these guys have been successful because they were able to keep us from getting our hands on them or even becoming aware of their existence. It represents an intriguing shift in the strategy of the rep makers...try to fool the rep community, and then if you can fool them, chances are the genuine community isn't going to as vigilant about pieces that they can't come here and verify have not been repped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Freddy, I think this is the picture that you were asking for- one showing the underside of the links. Yes, exactly what I wanted to see. From this picture I draw 2 conclusions -- If this is not a gen, it could fool me. This is the most accurate aftermarket bracelet I have seen.If this is a rep, I would have no problems fitting it to a vintage gen watch (assuming the engravings were correct for the model & I did not want to spend the cost of the gen). At least based on what I see in the pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 And that's the problem. As I said before, I'm not even sure it's a fake. I think there is enough cause to open it up for questioning- and unlike in a court of law, my attitude towards these parts is guilty until proven innocent. I agree that it is not a clear-cut situation. I don't think Stilty is being at all unreasonable to take a wait and see approach, especially given the quality of the bracelets. Here is another pic of the inside of the links. The metal of the links is supposedly overpressed in the middle of each link. This is supposed to be most apparent in the centre link sections. You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards the theory that they're fake. My common sense tells me that if all of a sudden there are a bunch of new old stock 7836 bracelets available all coming from Hong Kong, something is not right. Simply put, there are not that many NOS 7836 in circulation to realistically account for the number that are showing up in the market. There shouldn't be more than one NOS 7836 coming becoming available in the ANY Rolex market more than once a month at the absolute upper limit. Otherwise, it simply doesn't fit with the historical model of supply/demand and the scarcity of these parts, even if we only limit ourselves to those in good condition, let alone NEW. An analogy would be if a tiny convenience store at the end of your corner started selling the winning national lottery ticket every single week. Or even better, as someone who used to work in a casino, if someone starts hitting roulette or bacarat every single hand/spin, you better get surveilance off their butts and trying to figure out how they're skewing the odds. If it happens a few times, you can write it off to random probability. But especially in the case of something so potentially profitable to the sellers of these bracelets, they're eventually going to get greedy. That's exactly what they've done, and now they've exposed themselves through their greed by making themselves conspicuous by flooding the market with these bracelets... Comparing the engraving of the numbers on the last bracelet link, the 7836 on the one in question appears to be engraved more deeply, in the sense that the numbers created a greater indentation and looks as though it was pressed as a stamp, whereas compared to the for sure genuine one I just bought which has the numbers engraved and the effect is that the numerals are visible as less deeply punched and are more sharply defined. I have a feeling that might be one of the tricks...the engraving as opposed to the 'stamped' apperance. Here's mine for comparison: Wow, is this getting tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Let me add something else to my previous post to put this into perspective. Let us assume that this is a rep/aftermarket bracelet. Now, if you compare this rep bracelet to the gen and then compare 1 of the riveted or solid link Oyster rep/aftermarket bracelets to their gen counterparts, I think this 1 comes up looking quite respectable. Whereas that riveted POS is an embarrassment that is spotted from across a room by even a casual observer, this folded link, again, assuming that it is not a gen, would fool me. And I think that would be quite an accomplishment.......assuming it is not a gen, which, based on the last set of pictures, I kind of think it is. Just out of curiosity, can someone post a link to the seller of these folded link bracelets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 And another thing -- if someone was making aftermarket folded link bracelets, I would expect that at least 1 of our collectors would be offering them on their watches. This whole thing kind of reminds me of the baldness cure infomercials we all see on tv, where the sellers will say they have these marvelous 'cures', but no one in the medical community offers them. If such a thing as a quality aftermarket/rep folded link bracelet does exist, why is it that none of our collectors have them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Freddy, I think that at least a possible answer to your question about why our collectors might not have access to them is available in a post a few above this one- but I agree that there are a lot of variables that leave this open to debate. I'm not sure if I agree with you about the clasp being up to usual gen standards. The endlinks look amazing, BTW, so that adds another variable in favor of the notion that they are gen. But the clasp looks suspicious, and it's the same on all of them, and as far as I know there are no available references of similar clasps on gen 7836's for comparison. But seriously...3 new old stock 7836 bracelets sold on the Bay within the last week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I just found the seller on ebay & it appears that not only does he have very few previous sales, but all of the previous sales are aftermarket items (some of very low quality). So, assuming the pictures in the sellers auction post are accurate, the odds are that Mezz's original guess is probably correct -- there are good aftermarket folded link bracelets available. But I would cap a purchase for 1 of these at around $150 since gens go for $200 & up (I would take an average condition gen for $200 over an aftermarket anytime). That is the best I can conclude without actually seeing & handling 1 of these bracelets in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I've been continuing to do research on this issue, and have confirmed that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that these bracelets are fake. Even if there is still some ambiguity and room for doubt, I would caution anyone who is currently considering the purchase of one of these NOS 7836 bracelets from Hong Kong to avoid doing so until this can be resolved definitely. Problem is, most of these parts can't be authenticated beyond a certain degree of certainty in the best of cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stilty Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Just out of curiosity, can someone post a link to the seller of these folded link bracelets? Stan (tudorman) is selling one on eBay and that is why there is such a discussion. There is no way he would sell a rep, unless he was fooled into thinking it was gen. So unless he comes out and says it is fake, then the jury is still out for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I understand your position, Stilty, but from what I have observed, everyone who has taken the position that the bracelet is real is doing so on the basis of Stan's credibility. Stan's credibility is open to question if you dig a little deeper into matters. Essentially, when confronted with someone else's NOS 7836, he said that it was fake....but when confronted with his own identical bracelet, he refuses to acknowledge the possibility it's fake. He does not make an attempt to address the issues that have been raised, and simply makes an appeal to his history selling Rolex parts as his evidence for the bracelet's authenticity, which is a sign of someone grasping at straws IMO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I have dealt with Stan for quite awhile & he definitely knows his stuff when it comes to Rolex bracelets & end links. If, based on a direct personal examination of the bracelet in question (as opposed to just viewing pictures as we are doing), Stan says these are gen, then, lacking the definitive word from Rolex itself, that is good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I understand your position, Stilty, but from what I have observed, everyone who has taken the position that the bracelet is real is doing so on the basis of Stan's credibility. Stan's credibility is open to question if you dig a little deeper into matters. Essentially, when confronted with someone else's NOS 7836, he said that it was fake....but when confronted with his own identical bracelet, he refuses to acknowledge the possibility it's fake. He does not make an attempt to address the issues that have been raised, and simply makes an appeal to his history selling Rolex parts as his evidence for the bracelet's authenticity, which is a sign of someone grasping at straws IMO... With the exception of my previous response (regarding Stan), none of my other comments are based on Stan's credibility. And I just checked Stan's site & unless I missed something, Stan is not selling the same 7836 that this seller is selling. How did Stan get involved in authenticating the 7836 that this seller is selling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carlsbadrolex Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 You guys are giving me a headache. Ive been doing some research of my own and I have found that WE ARE ALL INSANE!!! We should sell ALL of our reps and spend the money on wine and hookers! Looks like Im in for a couple nice bottles and a foursome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 You guys are giving me a headache. Ive been doing some research of my own and I have found that WE ARE ALL INSANE!!! We should sell ALL of our reps and spend the money on wine and hookers! Looks like Im in for a couple nice bottles and a foursome! Good for you...I think I could afford a jug of Boone's Farm, and a couple of sheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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