What the hell?

[Guest HeWhoIsLikeGod]

WTF this thread is getting ridiculous, I am surprised a mod hasn't stepped in(mods?), anyway Brian you said it yourself, we are dealing in illegal goods as we are all aware, you are a scammer yourself, we all are, no matter what you say, whether you collect reps because you just like the look of the watch or just want to look like some poser rich snob, you are scamming Rolex, Panerai, etc.

I am not trying to say that this stupid website is very legit, they are selling illegal counterfeit watches, how [censored]ing ethical do you expect them to be? Why should they have to be? In my opinion they are very unethical, but they are doing something illegal and taken quite a risk IMHO, no one is forcing anyone to buy from them. If someone does there research then they will find this place and realize what they should be paying, if they don't then that is the consiquence of their laziness.

You think it is that much different for our dealers to use perfect and 1:1? well I agree it will be interpetted the way it should be by most of us here at RWG, but you think the only people that will come across josh's website will see this site first or if they do, how much research do you think they might do? I mean nothing bad against josh as he is one of the most stand up dealers here and I think he has amazing communication and customer service.

For you to be posting a bunch of [censored] nonsense telling me to suck your [censored], etc Are you another one of are highschool members or do you just act like that? When you get upset with someone at work do you go off like that? Thats very professional, very mature!

I do see your point and I understand why you believe the site to be a scam, but as far as Rep sites go they are pretty tame, it is [censored] how much they are charging, but THEY CAN CHARGE WHAT EVER THE HELL THEY WANT! Would you like the Better Business Bureau to step in, why don't you give them a call and let them know.

WE ARE DEALING WITH ILLEGAL REPLICAS! You are scamming Rolex, Panerai, IWC, etc. You are ripping off the gen buyer, cause he has to pay for all the legal headaches the gen watch makers have to go thru.

if you think $950 is to much for a rep, then your pretty smart and probably did some research, but if you choose to spend that on a rep then I don't think you deserved to get ripped off, but you must deal with the consiquences of your actions. Live and learn.

The sites I really have problem with are the ones that don't send anything, or use false reviews to trick people into buying.

I am not against replicas and I am not trying to [censored] anyone of, I started off trying to share my opinion in which many disagreed, which is absolutely fine, but if you really understood what my logic is you wouldn't be so rude. Some of you are quite naive and foolish with unreal expectatons of the way things should be.

I think we should be this topic to rest and agree to disagree, no offense to anyone, this is obviously a touchy subject. If you wish to discuss this further please lets keep it polite.

[Pugwash]

I do see your point and I understand why you believe the site to be a scam, but as far as Rep sites go they are pretty tame, it is [censored] how much they are charging, but THEY CAN CHARGE WHAT EVER THE HELL THEY WANT! Would you like the Better Business Bureau to step in, why don't you give them a call and let them know.

No-one really took that much offence at this postulation. It's when you said they're no different to Rolex, Panerai, etc., that people suddenly knee-jerked into florid and verbose action.

Still, it's nice to see you're no longer defending that stance; Can we assume you realised it was bogus?

[fitmic]

I am far from being a Rolex guy, but those watches looked like utter crap!

[Guest HeWhoIsLikeGod]

When I said they were no different than rolex, it wasn't exactly what I meant with that comment, there was a point I was trying to make, but it wasn't quite put into context how I planned, if that makes any sense.

[Brian]

Michael,

I REALLY didn't hope you were that naive, OR that DDFNS . . .

but to defend anyone who would blatently rip the un-informed & un-educated that way just set me off . . .

I really do apologize for calling you the things I did . . .

really . . .

"When I said they were no different than rolex, it wasn't exactly what I meant with that comment, there was a point I was trying to make, but it wasn't quite put into context how I planned, if that makes any sense"

Thank the god I believe in I've never done that . . .

8^)

I think I over reacted to what you said . . .

no, I don't have a doubt . . . I did . . .

But for someone who's been here . . . or rwg1 for more than a day . . . if the stupid site was up for that long . . . ooops . . . sorry blade . . . if you are a real entity . . .

oh, just BTW . . .

NOT in to those WAY over sized Paner . . . whatever . . . Klocks . . .

to me you seemed to take an opinion about business . . . not just reps, but business in general that just hit me the wrong way . . . the absolutely wrong way . . . because I've never in my life treated or taken any business position that I didn't feel totally honorable in selling/promoting what ever goods/products/service I was working with at the time, and feel that I could sleep comfortably at nite after doing it.

I still feel & think & know . . .

that website is doing its best to try & scam people & rip them off for what ever they can get before they're chased off the Net . . .

and take the money & run . . .

and I strongly suspect you really do to.

sorry about jumpin on you for it . . . wrong time/place/frame of mind/bad day/week/month /year/couple yerars . . .

I've seen Tooooo many people make WAY too much $$$$ in spite of themselves, not because of themselves . . .

don't know what else to say . . .

'cept I hope those people at that site . . .

die spitting blood in pain and agony and live long enough to see everything they gained from it wither and die

right before they do.

B

[mhinagoya]

Gentlemen.

The site mentioned has some 'questionable' copy describing the product. In my opinion, no more nor any less questionable than ad copy used by most cosmetic manufacturers, many car manufacturers and at least one motorcycle manufacturer.

There may be something interesting to be gleaned from a debate over the legitimacy of intellectual property (a logo or trademark and a style design).

Character assissination and/or slander among friends will edify none of us.

Most watches are luxury items, and as such, are priced at (and are worth) whatever the market wil bear.

If these folks can sell their wares at the quoted prices, then that is what their market will bear.

I personally feel that anytime a product is retailed using 'hyped' ad copy, with the intention of selling at a price that would not attract the market otherwise, then a 'scam' is in the offing. That is my feeling and it is neither right nor wrong. That is simply how I feel about this sort of marketing.

For your consideration: There is a certain motorcycle manufacturer (who shall remain anonymous) that builds one of their products for a production cost of around $1,000. This has been verified by 'in house' documents that have been leaked. That same product is then sold in retail establishments for an asking price of $12,000. This is accomplished by convincing the buyer that they are also getting some kind of 'lifestyle' to go with their new bike. They tout that the new bike will make the rider somehow different (better). Most people never notice this. In fact, they will buy all kinds of junk at the local mall, just because the manufacturer licensed their logo to be used on those products.

So the watch folks throw the "Swiss" idea around a lot. So what? The bike manufacturer had to start using "Made in America" (no legal definition) on their product, because they could no longer say it was "Made In USA" (a legally defined term), as so much of it is now outsourced to Asia.

Whether overpriced watches or overpriced vehicles, capitalism can occasionally have an ugly face and this is one of them.

Now y'all play nice. Get your motorcycle out and go for a ride.

Bill.

[warburg]

There's a great deal of elaborate and very fine reasoning here, but the bottom line is that people who sell for $1,000 what many other people are selling for $200 and advertise that they are offering bargains are ripoff artists pure and simple—end of story.

[Pugwash]

For your consideration: There is a certain motorcycle manufacturer (who shall remain anonymous) that builds one of their products for a production cost of around $1,000. This has been verified by 'in house' documents that have been leaked. That same product is then sold in retail establishments for an asking price of $12,000.

Yes, but this story doesn't take into account R&D, development testing, crash testing, shipping, handling, profit-margins, tax, duty, marketing, advertising, factory fitting, tool machining, etc.

Everything costs 10% of its eventual retail price to make. If not, you're doing it wrong.

[kanerich]

Yes, but this story doesn't take into account R&D, development testing, crash testing, shipping, handling, profit-margins, tax, duty, marketing, advertising, factory fitting, tool machining, etc.

Everything costs 10% of its eventual retail price to make. If not, you're doing it wrong.

Pugwash is absolutely right. Furthermore, unlike rep makers I'm sure that certain motorcycle company also doesn't solely employ people in China for $5 a day with no health benefits, no pension, no insurance, no sick leave, no vacation pay. For many companies that manufacture their own product, labor, insurance and marketing eat up most of the operating costs, not making the product. Why do you think GM is facing bankruptcy, because the Corvette actually costs $46,000 simply to make? Also, when you accuse that particular motorcycle company of selling motorcycles at 12 times the cost of manufacturing, how does that compare to the general industry practice? Without knowing that, how can you call a particular market player a scammer? The devil can quote scripture to his advantage, and anyone can cherry-pick facts to support their point.

By the simplistic theory that the cost of raw materials entirely determines what is and is not a scam, iTunes is a complete scam since each song costs NOTHING to "make" and send to the buyer. This ignores what it costs to actually develop a business model, operate the business, negotiate and license the songs, market the product to successfully compete with dozens of competitors, etc. The first and last items are biggies for any business, especially an innovative one, which anyone who has actually tried to develop and run a successful one will understand. The genius of Starbucks is not in the quality of its coffee. It's in gambling that tens of millions of Americans will radically change their consumption habits if coffee drinking is presented as a lifestyle. It's easy for someone who doesn't know jack [censored] about business to sit back and complain about how the coffee itself costs 10 cents a cup.

The SCAM I'm talking about (and I think many others are also) is where the LIES of the seller X HIDES that the price offered by seller X is well in excess of its MARKET value, not some hypothetical "TRUE" value (which some people seem to be stuck on). That's why a $900 faulex is a scam, because the IDENTICAL item is available elsewhere on the open market for $50 and the dealer is DECEIVING you that it is some special rep worth $900. The $12,000 motorcycle or $3 coffee is not this type of scam because that price is, whether you personally think people are stupid to pay it or not, the FAIR MARKET PRICE as understood by the pool of informed buyers of that SPECIFIC product based on CORRECT information. If the seller doesn't have to LIE to his buyers about the fact HE is personally massively overcharging THEM, it's not this type of scam.

People say that there is no market price for illegal items. That's [censored]. "Market" doesn't mean legal, it just means there's a pool of buyers. There's a market price for anything for which there is a significant market, legal or illegal. You may not have recourse if you get scammed buying an illegal good but that doesn't mean that there isn't a generally acceptable price for it. So yes, there are "honest" and "dishonest" sellers of even illegal goods. The illegality of the good and the ethicality of the business practices of the seller are not the same thing. One may reflect on the other, but they are not identical concepts.

Edited July 5, 2006 by kanerich

[Brian]

The SCAM I'm talking about (and I think many others are also) is where the LIES of the seller X HIDES that the price offered by seller X is well in excess of its MARKET value, not some hypothetical "TRUE" value (which some people seem to be stuck on). That's why a $900 faulex is a scam, because the IDENTICAL item is available elsewhere on the open market for $50 and the dealer is DECEIVING you that it is some special rep worth $900. The $12,000 motorcycle or $3 coffee is not this type of scam because that price is, whether you personally think people are stupid to pay it or not, the FAIR MARKET PRICE as understood by the pool of informed buyers of that SPECIFIC product based on CORRECT information. If the seller doesn't have to LIE to his buyers about the fact HE is personally massively overcharging THEM, it's not this type of scam.

People say that there is no market price for illegal items. That's [censored]. "Market" doesn't mean legal, it just means there's a pool of buyers. There's a market price for anything for which there is a significant market, legal or illegal. You may not have recourse if you get scammed buying an illegal good but that doesn't mean that there isn't a generally acceptable price for it. So yes, there are "honest" and "dishonest" sellers of even illegal goods. The illegality of the good and the ethicality of the business practices of the seller are not the same thing. One may reflect on the other, but they are not identical concepts.

THANK YOU !!

If I may pull a piece of your quote outta your context and use it to my advantage to clarify my point . . .

I feel that the website mentioned at the start of this thread is run by a bunch of ripoffs and scammers. I mentioned that "ANY company that targets the uninformed & uneducated with an inferior product at a vastly inflated price IS scamming people and IS ripping them off." The reason I felt this way about that particular website is because as one of the members here, or members at any of the other three boards know that THEY would now know never to pay such a ridiculously high price for a not to good at all rep watch from a company that also misleads people in their descriptions of their reps. The members of these forums I would think . . . we make up the group who knows what the "fair market price" is because we are the pool of informed buyers of that SPECIFIC product based on CORRECT information.

Late night, driving home I stop in at a convenience store and get a Coke from the fountain and pay $1.50 for it even though I know I can go to Giant Beagle and get a 2 liter bottle for 99¢. Do I think they are ripping me off ?? Yea, kinda . . . I'm informed enough to know that they are charging WAY too much for that drink, but I also know I'm paying for the convenience of walking in there, any time day or night and walk out with a cold drink, and if I really want that drink, I'll pay the premium for it. Next day, I go in to Giant Beagle for some burgers, chips & dip for a cookout, remember I need some Coke, go down the isle, and now they have it marked up to $5.50. The clerk says that if the convenience store charge $1.50 for so little, this is actually a good deal because it's still costing you less than the convenience store charges. Again, being an informed buyer of that product, I DO NOT buy it because I know they are scamming me and trying to rip me off, because the other grocery stores in the area have been and still are still selling it for 99¢.

I see no convenience or special service that website can offer that can justify that BS price. They are ripping people blind . . . period.

B

B