Anyone paying attention to what is going on between Russia and Georgia?

[milsub5517]

yes, and the reason is genocide against osetians. unfortunately, news here do not cover this part well. the reason is that it wont make america look good as it sponsored georgia's military program and backed the country in general.

Russia would NEVER go into this whit no reason that is the only thing we should care about as we are not Georgians nor Russians.

Edited August 12, 2008 by mil_sub

[Shundi]

OT Mil_Sub but you realize that you took Rockefeller's quote completely out of context right? He's discussing internationalism and countries working together for the benefit of one humanity.

"I think without internationalists like you, the international system we have been trying to build, the international system we have today, wouldn't be here."

* UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, at a book signing for "Memoirs" at the UN headquarters in New York, in 2002

[milsub5517]

dont start with me about rockefellers. "countries working together for the benefit of one humanity." LOL, like usa right now is working together with georgia for the benefit of osetains, like china is supporting Darfurs policies for the benefit of those who live there etc etc Every country out there is trying to protect their own interests, every business out there is trying to maximize their own profits. and all of you know what happenes when politics is mixed with buiseness. Unfortunately, there is no "working together for the benefit of one humanity". period.

OT Mil_Sub but you realize that you took Rockefeller's quote completely out of context right? He's discussing internationalism and countries working together for the benefit of one humanity.

"I think without internationalists like you, the international system we have been trying to build, the international system we have today, wouldn't be here."

* UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, at a book signing for "Memoirs" at the UN headquarters in New York, in 2002

[JohnG]

OT Mil_Sub but you realize that you took Rockefeller's quote completely out of context right? He's discussing internationalism and countries working together for the benefit of one humanity.

"I think without internationalists like you, the international system we have been trying to build, the international system we have today, wouldn't be here."

* UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, at a book signing for "Memoirs" at the UN headquarters in New York, in 2002

[robj]

America is only doing what it always does it is not interested in the political problems there outside of it being stable enough to pump oil.

Right or wrong doesn't enter into America giving support to either side or backing them with money it's a purely commercial decision based on oil nothing more or nothing less. look at Iraq do you think this would have happened if America instead of France and Russia had the biggest oil share there.

Don't take any of this as personal either backing Georgia or Russia it's only buisness

No one should blame America for what is happening there now it has nothing to do with them the leaders on both sides don't need any outside influence to go on a killing spree they do it without any outside involvement.

Unfortunately as a world power America is always going to be dragged into these regional problems with having either direct or indirect links with one or the other side so blaming America is inevitable.

I don't think for one moment America will deploy troops or take any active part in this conflict as I don't imagine Europe will either they have enough problems fighting a war they cannot win in Afghanistan and Iraq. So I don't see them getting involved anytime soon with anything more than words and possibly sanctions

[milsub5517]

everything should be taken with the grain of salt john. you are not a kid to believe everything 100%. BUT It is stupid to not believe that a lot of money gives you a lot of power in this and especially other countries, so much power that it is enough to influence and change directions of the politics in the country. this is whats happening and what im trying to say. the rest are just details.

Forget it Shundi,

He thinks the Rockefellers orchestrated (along with Bush and the other "elites") the 9/11 attack. Their next step will be to put chips in all of us to control us (the Fluoride in the water and the subliminal messages didn't seem to be doing the job you see)...

I laugh, but it is no joke - look at the Russo interview in his sig line - that guy is a FRUIT CAKE.

[milsub5517]

this is crazy. i just watched CNBC report and they are portreying russia as an agressor. lol. they "forget" to mention the fact that agressor is georgia, they attacked south osetia first burned down the city and several villages. killed innocent people (using faschist methods btw) now, that russia pushed them back they are saying that all of this is because russia wants oil??? All russia did was protection of ossetians who would have beed exterminated otherwise.

this is pro-american propaganda. they also forget to mention that usa sponsored georgia's millitary program for years, georgian troops have american equipment/weapons etc., also usa moved georgian troops from iraq to georgia to develop the conflict further.

if any of you know languages other than english go check local news, the information is 100% the opposite from what CNN, Fox etc tell us here! I cant believe this.

[Fish]

If Georgia is in war against the civil population of sothern Ossetia it would be good if someone would stop them.

However, if Russia gets massively involved one intention behind it might be the message that Georgia is no NATO candidate at all and the NATO should really stay away freom that area. This area is about control of the access to the major shipping ports for oil in this region and some western countries try to cut russia off from that access. Moscow is certainly not keen on any confrontation but they are not afraid to stand up if someone is trying to isolate them.

As cynical as it sounds, this story might be much bigger than Georgia.

[fakemaster]

UPDATE! Russia 3 - Georgia 0

[Fish]

US President George W Bush

"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighbouring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st Century. The Russian government must reverse the course it appears to be on and accept this peace agreement as a first step toward solving this conflict"

Sounds strange but familiar, no? XXX has invaded a sovereign state... Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century...

With Russia there are no speculations about weapons of mass destruction, everybody knows the bear still has his claws and teeth. But so do the U.S.

Anybody wants to invade them? Talking about invading sovereign states for own or any others advantage, probably even without any legitimation Bush is just the right one to be the voice of moral, right?

Of course Russia is acting quite massively, but that is a signal for several nations that are trying to isolate Russia politically, economically and strategically. Russia allready refused to have their natural resources exploited by western international companies. I the given situation Russia just has to tell them: Hey, don

Edited August 13, 2008 by Fish

[JohnG]

If Georgia is in war against the civil population of sothern Ossetia it would be good if someone would stop them.

However, if Russia gets massively involved one intention behind it might be the message that Georgia is no NATO candidate at all and the NATO should really stay away freom that area. This area is about control of the access to the major shipping ports for oil in this region and some western countries try to cut russia off from that access. Moscow is certainly not keen on any confrontation but they are not afraid to stand up if someone is trying to isolate them.

As cynical as it sounds, this story might be much bigger than Georgia.

It doesn't sound cynical. Georgia's NATO aspirations, Saakashvili's antagonism towards Russia, the strategic importance of Georgia as a supply conduit for oil from the Caspian Sea, the large Russian ethnic population in Osettia, ALL these things factor into decisions being made in Moscow.

[Fish]

It doesn't sound cynical. Georgia's NATO aspirations, Saakashvili's antagonism towards Russia, the strategic importance of Georgia as a supply conduit for oil from the Caspian Sea, the large Russian ethnic population in Osettia, ALL these things factor into decisions being made in Moscow.

The main aspect might be that Georgia is the most important independent transit country for oil and gas pipelines from central asia towards Europe. That fact and the outpost position right at the southern border of the Russian Federation is what made them interesting as NATO candidate and this is why Saakashvili might have felt safe to claim back control of South Osetia even with military force. Of course Georgias active support for the U.S. in Iraq helped him feeling safe for this action.

On the other side Russia has a historically grown population majority in South Osetia of about 60% which had been offered russian passports over a long time to support the independent status of South Osetia from Georgia. Since North Osetia belongs to the Russian Federation the purpose of this becomes obvious.

Russia just needed to show that they won

Edited August 13, 2008 by Fish

[Flashman]

Personally I agree that Russia is using a hammer to kill an ant, but the Georgians should not get the sympathy they have been getting in the Western press. They started the conflict with a poorly planned ethnic cleansing move that the President thought would distract everyone from his poor leadership. Killing Russian peacekeepers and civilians is something akin to a move the Serbs or Nazis would have done. I have no idea why we seem to be supporting them.

I think the Russians were right to move in fast to holt the killing and show the Georgian government that the sleeping giant of a nation next door still has one eye open. But their move to wipe out the potential military threats deeper into Georgian territory is a controversial move, but one that will help the South Ossetians. They could have worked a bit closer with Western mediation, but since Russia does not trust the Western motives I can understand their confidence to sort things first themselves.

I think the Americans, British and rest of the West have come out of this looking very hypocritical. The press here all seemed to support Georgia and portray the Russians in a bad light (as per cold war times), yet we would have all done the same if there were immediate atrocities involving our own nationals/passport holders. Also the Georgian president is cleverly using it as a PR war, with EU flags in the background (they are not part of the EU and never will be) he speaks to his people in English (the Western common tongue), he brags about his relationship with the West for NATO membership (yet he has not been invited, and it doesn't look like he will).

He is a desperate man, taking desperate means to try to keep his job and distract the voters from the real issues, but he made a great error of judgement and he deserves to go.

I don't think Russia has any interest in taking over the break away states from the former USSR, it is doing very nicely without them, and has strong alliances with the ones that matter to it. When I see the US building military sites in Eastern European countries and wandering why Russia gets angry all I see is that the cold war is over, but that America is trying to start it again. Maybe for the benefit of defence contracts. The US need to start trusting their old enemies in order for us to progress.

We in the West were all very quick to criticise the Putin elections, but he is an incredibly popular figure in Russia, and is taking the hard line that is needed to crush the corrupt and inefficient practises of the past. It takes a strong and tough person to kick Russia into shape and keep it ontrack to economic progress, which will massively benefit the West (we do not want it freefalling into chaos and needing our troups to maintain peace). You just have to look at the last US general election and corporate support that funds US politics to see that America is in no position to talk about fair democracy.

Overall I think that we should not be afraid of Russia, as it is benefiting from taking the path to democratic and economic freedom, it just takes time to perfect. Why would Russia threaten the Oil and Gas supplies to the world, it is funding their economy, there is no reason for them to threaten their customers and push us to go elsewhere. I think we need to realise that the world has changed and that Russia is not a Stalinist country anymore but one that is embracing capitalism. China is doing the same thing, and after a few decades the human rights and democratic moves will follow. 20 years ago, we would not have believed what we are seeing now, but the World does seem to be moving closer together.

Just my 1p (2c)

[Fish]

One aspect is that it is Europe that directly benefits from the oil and gas transit through Georgia and while Russia has intersted in stability and peace along their borders and Europe prefers political stability along their oil supply pipelines there are these conflicts. Of course Russia has a major share in the market for strategical resources like oil and gas on the european continent and the EU countries are trying to bypass them by getting a direct access to non-russian resources in central asia via Georgia.

Georgia is seeking to claim back power in the separating parts of its country. These parts have an ethnical russina majority. Especially South Osetia (60% + of russian population of which 50% hold a russian passport) claimed independance and is seeking closer contact to North Osetia which is an independant country in the Russian Federation. Parts of Georgia runnning away? Maybe Georgia shouldn

Edited August 13, 2008 by Fish

[Brucelles]

And which secret FSB informant told you this....? Or have you been there yourself, undercover as a Georgian Spetsnaz?

I don't think it's any secret. I had read (I think in the Scottish Daily Herald) that the UN are trying to get access to the remote villages in Ossetia in order to investigate an alleged massacre of 1,600 civilians follwing the total destruction of 10 villages. Apparently unofficial intelligence from US sources suggests that the massacres did happen. If so, then Russia's actions look a little more understandable. Not that one good massacre deserves another, but still, what would your country do if a neighbour slaughtered 1,600 of your people?

[Brucelles]

South Ossetia has been militarily quiet since the spring of 2006, when the Georgian Military and Georgian Government concluded a political, (bribery) and military campaign to add some disaffected South Ossetian villages to the Georgian Area of Control.

Politically, it has been quite loud, provoked politically by the recognition of Kosovar Independence and economically by the boom in North Ossetia and Sochi, contrasted by the absolute absence of any attempts at economic development by Georgia.

Still, the Georgians and the South Ossetians managed to sign a treaty guaranteeing South Ossetian Autonomy and re-committing to resolve their issues peacefully.

On June 7th, the Georgian Military High Command finalise their plans and timetable for the reconquest of South Ossetia and submit them to Saakashvili for approval. He signs off on approval on June 10th. (There are often few secrets from Russia in the former SSR's as roughly half the population is still closely tied to Russia and has shifting alliances, sadly, the Russian FSB did not learn of this until August 12th, when they arrested the Deputy Head of the Foreign Intelligence Service of Georgia, while he was in Russia, trying to activate Georgian Intelligence cells (Russian Mafia) to undertake terrorist operations and sabotage ).

On the morning of August 1st, Georgian artillery in the Georgian Area of Control open fire on the hamlet of Polia, killing six and wounding four, destroying the village and forcing its remaining 110 inhabitants to flee.

South Ossetian Militia responds with sniper attacks and small unit raids on the Georgian Area of Control.

Russia called for both sides to stop shooting and re-affirm their commitment to resolve their differences peacefully. Saakashvili accused the South Ossetians of starting a war and reaffirmed Georgia's commitment to retake the enclaves by any means possible and punish the criminals that infested those areas.

On August 5th, the Georgian Military moved to their start line.

Sporadic sniping and raids continued into August 6th, with a further 3 Georgian soldiers being wounded, and 13 South Ossetians were wounded and 4 killed by Georgian shelling.

Saakashvili ordered a unilateral ceasefire and called for talks "in any format", reaffirmed the long-standing offer of full autonomy for South Ossetia, proposed that Russia should guarantee that solution, offered a general amnesty, and pleaded for international intercession to stop the hostilities. In an International Press release, the Georgian Government reiterated that it was prepared to engage in direct talks with the de facto government of South Ossetia without any preconditions.

On August 7th, Georgia claimed that South Ossetian Artillery has shelled the villages of Avnevi, Eredvi, Nuli and Kurta, claimed that civilians were fleeing the area, but this was denied by the South Ossetians and to date, has not been confirmed to have happened.

The Georgian Military crossed their start line.

Now, strategically, there is only one way for Georgia to reclaim South Ossetia by force of arms. South Ossetia is connected to Georgia by a wide plain and rolling foothills, and connected to Russia and North Ossetia by 8 single lane, dirt, fair weather trails winding through the mountains, and one two lane, paved highway that passes through the mountains via the Roki tunnel in South Ossetia.

Seize the Roki Tunnel in a lightning strike, covert action, or close the tunnel with an airstrike, commando raid or sabotage. Surround and invest Tskhinvali, bottle the CIS Peacekeepers up in their base, avoiding combat with them and basically turning them into hostages.

The only means for the South Ossetians to resupply or reinforce is now by airdrops flying over the Mountains, the Russians are now limited to the 1000 CIS Peacekeepers trapped in Tskhinvali and what ever food, water and ammo they have on them.

In Counter Insurgency Clear and Hold Operations, allied with bribery and political incentives, mop up the South Ossetians.

Still, you lose any chance at reclaiming Abkhazia.

The Georgian Military did not do this.

Instead, they opened their attacks by flattening the South Ossetian villages of Kolia, Bana, Harvseti, Lenitiki, Otap, Akalgori, Kvasi and Rustavi Minos, killing roughly 500 South Ossetian civilians, and sending in Georgian Troops and Special Forces to force the South Ossetians to flee, raping and killing any who attempted to remain and burning the villages to their foundations. One third of the South Ossetian population was turned into refugees on the first official day of the war.

At the same time, they indiscriminately shelled Tskhinvali with 155mm artillery fire, Grad MLRS area denial Rockets, Hind and Mil-8 helicopter gunships, and dropped cluster munitions and air fuel weapons from SU-25's turning it into a sister city to Grodzny. Their initial attacks killed over 500 South Ossetian Civilians, wounded several thousand, killed 13 CIS Peacekeepers and wounded 80 more. They then attacked with armoured columns and infantry, indiscriminately firing at both civilian and military positions and claimed to have taken the city.

In reality, they never managed anything other than some footholds in the suburbs and some armoured thrusts into the center of town.

Why they never attacked the Roki Tunnel became clear as 40,000 South Ossetian refugees fled via the tunnel to Russia.

When the Bear got rolling, the Georgian Agenda became very clear. Unwilling to face armed and trained Soldiers, the Georgian Army fled from mere rumours of the Russian advance, continually claiming to have ceased firing and have evacuated South Ossetia over the next 4 days while continuing their ethnic cleansing in the villages they still occupied, even the Georgian Areas of Control, and shelling, rocketing and launching airstrikes on civilian targets and infrastructure in South Ossetia.

Why is it that every military the US trains runs away? People make jokes about the French fighting abilities, but man, the French can really fight compared to any US trained example.

Georgian attacks on South Ossetian civilians and civilian infrastructure did not stop until August 12th, when Russian forces completed mopping up Operations in South Ossetia and the Russian Air force destroyed the last Georgian Air assets.

Pretty good summaries of the War, and the Propaganda War

http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-south-oss...r-of-my-dreams/

http://exiledonline.com/georgia-gets-its-w...s-brain-plaque/

another good summary:

http://duckofminerva.blogspot.com/2008/08/...for-sanity.html

and a perfect example of the Georgian Army running away,

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle4509692.ece

[milsub5517]

thank you brucelles! this information is not being shown on the american television. im glad some foreign sources still have balls to tell the truth.

What russia is trying to do is to neutralize all armed troops that did this and also apperently the next step for georgia was attack on abchasia, which does not surprise me at all.

pro-western media sources are trying to blame everything on russia and the big plan is to start cold war again! the history repeats itself!!

I don't think it's any secret. I had read (I think in the Scottish Daily Herald) that the UN are trying to get access to the remote villages in Ossetia in order to investigate an alleged massacre of 1,600 civilians follwing the total destruction of 10 villages. Apparently unofficial intelligence from US sources suggests that the massacres did happen. If so, then Russia's actions look a little more understandable. Not that one good massacre deserves another, but still, what would your country do if a neighbour slaughtered 1,600 of your people?

[milsub5517]

How can you trust these puppets and what they say on TV after this???

McCain adviser got money from Georgia

By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer 45 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - John McCain's chief foreign policy adviser and his business partner lobbied the senator or his staff on 49 occasions in a 3 1/2-year span while being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the government of the former Soviet republic of Georgia.

The payments raise ethical questions about the intersection of Randy Scheunemann's personal financial interests and his advice to the Republican presidential candidate who is seizing on Russian aggression in Georgia as a campaign issue.

link on yahoo news

[Noel Fleischer]

after all the Georgians are the folks that brought us Stalin, no?

Its probably about $, oil, gas at the end of the day.

Putin has basically made himself a czar again, looks like

he LOVES POWER, which gets you alot of $$$ and hot chicks.

[Fish]

after all the Georgians are the folks that brought us Stalin, no?

Its probably about $, oil, gas at the end of the day.

Putin has basically made himself a czar again, looks like

he LOVES POWER, which gets you alot of $$$ and hot chicks.

I don

Edited August 13, 2008 by Fish

[milsub5517]

well said fish. Putin is doing the best he can with the country thats was torn apart and illegally sold off during early-late 90's. I lived there during that time and i saw what was going on.

I don

[JohnG]

I don

[slay]

What some of you guys, I think, are not getting, that this is not about Russian protecting its alleged citizens or Georgia murdering ossetians. This is about barbarianism! We are not living in a barbarity. We have the United Nations and the United Nations has its ways to enforce International Law and bring justice to those who violate it.

We do not need crazy people running to their neigbors and kicking their children in the nuts, because one of them hit their little baby girl! We have the Rule of Law, noone is above it. And noone should invade another country or step foot on it without a general assembly taking place. The UN is basically the judge and the court for such intergovernmental problems! AND NOT PUTIN!

Edited August 13, 2008 by slay

[JohnG]

What some of you guys, I think, are not getting, that this is not about Russian protecting its alleged citizens or Georgia murdering ossetians. This is about barbarianism! We are not living in a barbarity. We have the United Nations and the United Nations has its ways to enforce International Law and bring justice to those who violate it.

We do not need crazy people running to their neigbors and kicking their children in the nuts, because one of them hit their little baby girl! We have the Rule of Law, noone is above it. And noone should invade another country or step foot on it without a general assembly taking place. The UN is basically the judge and the court for such intergovernmental problems! AND NOT PUTIN!

Well the UN's authority is theoretical. In jurisprudence, one accepted definition of the word "law" is "rules backed by the threat of force." A rule is not a law unless there is a real possibility of being punished.

Russia (and the U.S.) is a permanent member of the UN Security Council and as such has veto power over any sanctions that the UN may wish to impose. There is NO threat the UN can make against permanent members of the Security Council - they can just veto such actions.

And the credibility of the UN and the legitimacy of international law in general were harmed severely by the unilateral actions of the U.S. in Iraq.

[Fish]

He is not a communist but as a nationalist he is very hardliner. Don't kid yourself about that.

Well, yes you