Anyone paying attention to what is going on between Russia and Georgia?

[milsub5517]

still dont believe in censorship?

watch this fox channel interview, suddenly interrupted by commercial brake:

link

Edited August 18, 2008 by mil_sub

[JohnG]

Man if you want to know what is going on in the world WHY O WHY are you watching TELEVISION???

Pick up a newspaper! (And use some common sense when choosing which one).

[milsub5517]

im telling people that they shouldnt trust USA media covering this conflict. a lot of people still have no idea what is going on.

Man if you want to know what is going on in the world WHY O WHY are you watching TELEVISION???

Pick up a newspaper! (And use some common sense when choosing which one).

censorship on american tv? :

interrupted question to condoleezza rice

press conference with foreighn minister of russia lavrov :

still dont believe in censorship?

watch this fox channel interview, suddenly interrupted by commercial brake:

link

Edited August 18, 2008 by mil_sub

[JohnG]

im telling people that they shouldnt trust USA media covering this conflict. a lot of people still have no idea what is going on.

Well I am saying that your apparent belief that the Fox News Channel is the only news source in the United States is PATENTLY WRONG.

There are PLENTY of good news sources. I named several. But you seem to only watch Fox - so what can I say? It's like reading the National Inquirer and then complaining about the quality of the coverage. IT'S YOUR CHOICE MAN. If you choose to only watch TV and Fox News at that, you can't really complain later...

[milsub5517]

i dont watch fox news, but millions of americans do and they have no idea what BS they are feeding them.

If you choose to only watch TV and Fox News at that, you can't really complain later...

[JohnG]

i dont watch fox news, but millions of americans do and they have no idea what BS they are feeding them.

Well you can't force people to educate themselves properly. For anyone who cares to be well informed in the U.S. there is AMPLE opportunity.

If freedom of speech is to mean anything, it must include the right to say things that you (or I) might not agree with.

[milsub5517]

here is a good interview with Gorbachev and then Saakashvilli on Larry King show recently, watch all 3 parts:

link

it gives you a good chronology of the events in Georgia.

Edited August 19, 2008 by mil_sub

[Fish]

here is a good interview with Gorbachev and then Saakashvilli on Larry King show recently, watch all 3 parts:

link

it gives you a good chronology of the events in Georgia.

It

[JohnG]

It

[Fish]

That flag is a little bit of propaganda.

The Russians have spouted their share of propaganda in this whole affair as well. And so has the United States. And for that matter, so have you, with the use of the term "Psychovili".

Propaganda is usually easy to spot (at least to an intelligent independent mind). And it has a certain utility - it tells you that the source of the propaganda is no longer to be taken seriously as a partner in sincere and responsible discourse.

Well, I just think that Saakashvili went too far with his EU stuff, as this obviously is targeted towards the uninformed people outside Europe (and we both know there are enough of them, you know where to search them).

He then claimed that the number of civilian casualties that were given by Russia were exaggerated, which is well possible, but even though: Where did they come from if Georgia did not do anything provocting this illegite invasion as he calls it?

I am convinced that the truth was one of the first vitims of this war and every party has its own "truth". But these lies were far too obvious to get through with it so that

Edited August 21, 2008 by Fish

[JohnG]

I am convinced that the truth was one of the first vitims of this war and every party has its own "truth".

Truth is the first casualty in ANY war. No one is being completely honest about the events as they have occurred or their own motivations. That's why God gave us common sense and an ability to read between the lines.

But these lies were far too obvious to get through with it so that

[milsub5517]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586605.stm

Putin blames US for Georgia role

Mr Putin believes US citizens were in the area of conflict

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused the US of provoking the conflict in Georgia, possibly for domestic election purposes.

Mr Putin told CNN US citizens were "in the area" during the conflict over South Ossetia and were "taking direct orders from their leaders".

He said his defence officials had told him the provocation was to benefit one of the US presidential candidates.

The White House dismissed the allegations as "not rational".

Georgia tried to retake the Russian-backed separatist region of South Ossetia this month by force after a series of clashes.

Russian forces subsequently launched a counter-attack and the conflict ended with the ejection of Georgian troops from both South Ossetia and another rebel region, Abkhazia, and an EU-brokered ceasefire.

Diplomatic wrangling

Mr Putin said in the interview: "The fact is that US citizens were indeed in the area in conflict during the hostilities.

"It should be admitted that they would do so only following direct orders from their leaders."

Those claims first and foremost are patently false, but it also sounds like his defence officials who said they believed this to be true are giving him really bad advice

Dana Perino,

White House spokeswoman

Mr Putin added: "The American side in effect armed and trained the Georgian army.

"Why... seek a difficult compromise solution in the peacekeeping process? It is easier to arm one of the sides and provoke it into killing another side. And the job is done.

"The suspicion arises that someone in the United States especially created this conflict with the aim of making the situation more tense and creating a competitive advantage for one of the candidates fighting for the post of US president."

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino rejected the allegation.

"To suggest that the United States orchestrated this on behalf of a political candidate - it sounds not rational," she said.

"Those claims first and foremost are patently false, but it also sounds like his defence officials who said they believed this to be true are giving him really bad advice."

SOUTH OSSETIA & ABKHAZIA

South Ossetia

Population: About 70,000 (before recent conflict)

Capital: Tskhinvali

President: Eduard Kokoity

Abkhazia

Population: About 250,000 (2003)

Capital: Sukhumi

President: Sergei Bagapsh

Diplomatic wrangling over Russia's actions in Georgia continued on Thursday with the Georgian parliament urging its government to cut diplomatic ties with Moscow.

Earlier, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner suggested some EU countries were considering sanctions against Russia.

Mr Kouchner insisted France had made no proposals for sanctions itself but, as current president of the EU, would aim to get consensus among all 27 countries of the bloc if sanctions were envisaged.

France has called an emergency EU summit on Monday to reassess relations with Russia.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov described talk of sanctions as the working of "a sick imagination".

Such talk was an emotional response that demonstrated Western confusion over the situation, he said.

The US has said it is now considering scrapping a US-Russia civilian nuclear co-operation pact in response to the conflict.

The White House has also announced that up to $5.75m (

[JohnG]

This gets richer and richer.

First Bush and the Rockefellers orchestrated 9/11. Then the entire U.S. media is "state-run" and censuring the "truth" about Georgia. And the latest? U.S. citizens acting on "direct orders" started the war in Georgia.

Hey, if Putin said it, it must be true.

[Flashman]

Both sides are guilty of lies, but I find it amazing to see how biased the West has been before even seeing the truth for themselves. Having the US placing Nuclear missile bases on Russia's border and saying they are only for countering Iran's threat is also complete BULL and is obviously going to annoy Russia, look at what happened when Russia tried doing the same in Cuba, the US had a temper tantrum big time!! You can't have your cake and eat it too. We all need to work together and accept that there are many ways that work, not just 'our' way.

I know a few Russians (there are plenty of them in London) and they certainly like to be more straight down the line and tell it how it is when compared to the wishy washy 'humanitarian' angle the West always seems to spout.

At the end of the day we should be honest with our motives, we want to protect the oil suppliers and f@ck anyone that tries to hold us to ransom. Russia knows this and wants us to be more honest with our excuses and has no interest in losing us as customers, the Russian economy is dependent on Europe's demand. Without the Western demand for goods and services China and Asian oil/gas demand would fall too. So all in all, we all need each other. This is just a stupid PR war that makes the West (government and media) look like idiots.

Edited September 1, 2008 by TommyB

[chronoluvvv]

This gets richer and richer.

First Bush and the Rockefellers orchestrated 9/11. Then the entire U.S. media is "state-run" and censuring the "truth" about Georgia. And the latest? U.S. citizens acting on "direct orders" started the war in Georgia.

Hey, if Putin said it, it must be true.

+100

Vive Le Pravdaaaaaaaaaaa

[chronoluvvv]

on a lighter note

[Flashman]

Now that is funny!! :D Ignorant people can be hilarious.

[milsub5517]

USA got what they wanted - started another cold war against Russia and again innocent people paid for this (the way it usually happens in usa). The next enemy has been chosen... stay tuned:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26572450/

The Associated Press

updated 7:53 a.m. ET, Sat., Sept. 6, 2008

MOSCOW - President Dmitry Medvedev said Saturday the war with Georgia has shown the world that "Russia is a nation to be reckoned with"

[JohnG]

USA got what they wanted - started another cold war against Russia and again innocent people paid for this (the way it usually happens in usa).

Yup, everything bad that happens in the world is America's fault.

You sound like a broken record man.

[chronoluvvv]

cold war or not, the US is paying for its mistakes from yesteryear. They had a perfect opportunity to tackle the Russian bear after the Republic broke up.

Edited September 7, 2008 by takatak

[JohnG]

cold war or not, the US is paying for its mistakes from yesteryear. They had a perfect opportunity to tackle the Russian bear after the Republic broke up.

The U.S. has made a lot of errors in dealing with Russia since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, but abstaining from an unprovoked attack was not among them.

The major miscalculation has been in treating Russia in a way that continually reminds its leadership (and citizenry) of it's lost glory. Negotiating with Poland to put a ballistic missile defense system on Russia's doorstep is not the STUPIDEST thing we have ever done, but it comes close. It is humiliating and provocative. Anyone who has been paying the slightest attention to the nationalist noises coming out of Moscow should not be surprised that they are flexing their muscles in the region now. Georgia is a message.

That said, it is silly to suggest that the U.S. is responsible for Russia's actions. As far as I know, they are all adults in the Kremlin so the "devil made me do it" argument really doesn't work anymore. Of course, some people are always eager to set common sense aside and blame everything bad that happens in the world on the U.S.

[milsub5517]

it was not an unprovoked attack. What do you think russia should do when its citizens are getting murdered ?? just watch and hope that NATO would come in and calm down georgians??

The U.S. has made a lot of errors in dealing with Russia since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, but abstaining from an unprovoked attack was not among them.

The major miscalculation has been in treating Russia in a way that continually reminds its leadership (and citizenry) of it's lost glory. Negotiating with Poland to put a ballistic missile defense system on Russia's doorstep is not the STUPIDEST thing we have ever done, but it comes close. It is humiliating and provocative. Anyone who has been paying the slightest attention to the nationalist noises coming out of Moscow should not be surprised that they are flexing their muscles in the region now. Georgia is a message.

That said, it is silly to suggest that the U.S. is responsible for Russia's actions. As far as I know, they are all adults in the Kremlin so the "devil made me do it" argument really doesn't work anymore. Of course, some people are always eager to set common sense aside and blame everything bad that happens in the world on the U.S.

[milsub5517]

August 12, 2008, 17:41

Revealed: how U.S. funds Georgian arms

The United States has been providing military and technical support to independent Georgia for almost 15 years. During this period, the overall amount of annual aid from Washington has increased by more than several hundred times, and reached its peak in the financial year till 2006.

It has meant that Georgia’s army was well prepared for an attack on South Ossetia. RT offers a brief history of the preparation by the Georgian armed forces for the war.

* 1994: Georgia received $63,000 under the programme of the International Military Education and Training (IMET).

* 1995: Georgia received $85,000 under IMET.

* 1996: Georgia received $302,000 under IMET. It purchased American military equipment for $66.000. Total: $368,000.

* 1997: Georgia received $312,000 under IMET. It purchased American military equipment for $66,000. It received

$700,000 under the programme of the Foreign Military Financing (FMF). Total: $1,068,000.

* 1998: Georgia received $416,000 under IMET. It received $5,350,000 under EMF. Total: $5,766,000.

* 1999: Georgia received $394,000 under IMET. It received $7,950,000 under FMF. It purchased American arms for $19,000. It received $9,227,040 under the programme of Additional Defense Expenses (ADE). Total: $17,590,040.

* 2000: Georgia received $409,000 under IMET. It received $3,000,000 under FMF. It purchased American arms for $3,949,000. It received $575,000 under ADE. Total: $7,933,000.

* 2001: Georgia received $481,000 under IMET. It received $4,490,000 under FMF. It purchased American arms for $5,171,000. It received $575,000 under ADE. Total: $10,717,000.

* 2002: Georgia received $889,000 under IMET. It received $55,500,000 under FMF. It purchased American arms for $3,647,000. Total: $60,036,000.

* 29th April 2002: Pentagon announced the beginning of the Programme of Preparation and Equipment for Georgia (PPEG). The programme was implemented upon Georgia’s request for assistance in order to enhance its abilities to fight against terrorism, in the Pankisi Gorge in particular. The program was planned for 18-20 months. It included special seminars and training as well as supplies of light armaments and other military equipment for the Georgian army. Total budget of the programme was $64,000,000. Also, at least 150 American military experts were sent to Georgia. The Programme of Border Security and Law enforcement, with a budget of $3,200,000, was implemented at the same time.

* 2003: Georgia received $1,184,000 under IMET. It received $6,900,000 under FMF. It purchased American arms for $9,825,000. It received $4,525,054 under ADE. Total: $22,434,054.

* 2004: Georgia received $1,040,000 under IMET. It received $12,000,000 under FMF. It purchased American arms for $7,405,000. It received $2,786,257 under ADE. Total: $23,231,257.

* April 2004: Programme of Preparation and Equipment for Georgia was formally completed. The programme of operation for stabilisation and reinforcement began. It was formally intended for the preparation of Georgian armed forces to be sent to Iraq. The first stage of the program was planned for 18-20 months with a budget of approximately $60,000,000.

* 2005: Georgia received $1,413,000 under IMET. It received $11,904,000 under FMF. It purchased American arms for $32,044,000. Total: $45,361,000.

* 2006: Georgia received $1,275,000 under IMET. It received $11,880,000 under FMF. It purchased American for $106,714,000. Total: $119,869,000.

* 2007: Georgia received $1,235,000 under IMET. It received $10,000,000 under FMF. It purchased American arms for $10,876,000. Total: $22,102,000.

* September 2007: Beginning of the second stage of the programme of operation for stabilisation and reinforcement.

* 2008: $800,000 was allocated to Georgia under IMET. $10,000,000 was allocated under FMF. $9,319,000 was allocated for purchase of American arms. Total: $20,119,000.

article link: http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28892

International Military Education & Training (IMET) official gov website

The International Military Education and Training (IMET) program is a low cost, key funding component of U.S. security assistance that provides training on a grant basis to students from allied and friendly nations.The IMET program exposes students to the U.S. professional military establishment and the American way of life, including amongst other things, U.S. regard for democratic values, respect for individual and human rights and belief in the rule of law.

Foreign Military Financing (FMF) official FMF website

The principal means of ensuring America’s security is through the deterrence of potential aggressors who would threaten the U.S. or its allies. Foreign Military Financing, the U.S. government program for financing through grants or loans the acquisition of U.S. military articles, services, and training, supports U.S. regional stability goals and enables friends and allies to improve their defense capabilities.

My question is why did USA provide so much money for military purposes in the last 15 years and very little for other "more humane" things??

[JohnG]

it was not an unprovoked attack. What do you think russia should do when its citizens are getting murdered ?? just watch and hope that NATO would come in and calm down georgians??

Dude you need to learn how to read. I didn't say ANYWHERE the attack was unprovoked. Did you even read that quote you cited because if you did, you sure didn't understand it.

August 12, 2008, 17:41

Revealed: how U.S. funds Georgian arms

Revealed? Military aid to Georgia has been listed in the foreign appropriations budget for as long as it has been provided. It was no more secret than military aid the U.S. provides to nearly two hundred other countries. Revealed. That's a good one!

[milsub5517]

well, i bet 99% of the public have no idea that USA have been funding Georgia's millitary program for ~15 years, and now the fact that Georgia first attacked Ossetia does not make USA look good. I have not heard or read anywhere in the american news about USA selling weapons to Georgia, so yes, for most people it is new infromation.

Dude you need to learn how to read. I didn't say ANYWHERE the attack was unprovoked. Did you even read that quote you cited because if you did, you sure didn't understand it.

Revealed? Military aid to Georgia has been listed in the foreign appropriations budget for as long as it has been provided. It was no more secret than military aid the U.S. provides to nearly two hundred other countries. Revealed. That's a good one!