Rolex vs. ETA

[By-Tor]

In sum, he said that there is just no contest between the quality and functionality of Rolex movements vs. ETA with Rolex movements being superior in toughness and overall quality in nearly every way.

Yeah, I'm sure. But the price tag is superior too... actually if you think about the value/quality ratio, ETA is simply amazing. My dad's Tudor Sub (with standard ETA movement) ran for almost 30 years without servicing. And even after that there was no damage, and it was possible to service by a watchsmith... runs well and accurately again.

One thing I've noticed on my gen Rolex compared to ETA... it requires very little wrist time to have superior power reserve. Just merely 10-15 minutes on the wrist, and it runs for 30+ hours. Though this might only be a lubrication thing (and directly related to the movement condition)... but none of my rep ETAs can quite match that.

[RobbieG]

No doubt there. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my ETA movements - ebauche or otherwise. They are just amazing for the money. I have noted the power reserve phenomenon on my gen Rolex's too. I wonder what the deal is with that?

Anyway, it just intereting to hear different watchmaker's views on movements.

There are so many variables. I mean look at Patek. Just beautifly decorated and world class runners when recently serviced and adjusted but they are like Ferrari's in that they are always breaking because of fragily too. VC isn't far behind. I think the Glashutte region watches area nice balance as the 3/4 plate makes the gear train a bit more stable. Lange's and Glashutte's seem to have all the beauty and still appear to be universally regarded by watchmakers as being rugged. But the Patek and Piaget and Breguet and VC movements seem to be regard as more fragile than Rolex and ETA. I wonder what the line is on AP in that regard?

Anyway, I don't think anyone could argue that ETA wins hands down in any competition for both quality and robustness against cost ratio. That is for certain.

Yeah, I'm sure. But the price tag is superior too... actually if you think about the value/quality ratio, ETA is simply amazing.

[RobbieG]

Yeah they must have did that for a reason. Probably because they didn't want to tarnish the rep even if customers are lazy about having their watches serviced. They can't risk the image tarnish so even if the rotor post really isn't an issue with regualr service and lubrication they figured it better to just correct it since it will have problems if not cared for?

Just food for thought; Rolex's latest in-house 4130 is designed with a ball bearing rotor. In my opinion, that design aspect would have to have been chosen for a reason

[P4GTR]

very interesting discussion.

My father has a seiko from the early 70's he wears a lot. He touts that it still works after all these years. Try as I might to explain he direly needs to get the watch serviced, he says "why, if it still works". I explain the reasoning, but stubborn is stubborn.

He calls me on a business trip last week. Complaining that his ETA sub is "falling apart". I ask him what its doing and he tells me when he unscrews it it feels loose, and he will bring the parts home when it falls apart.

Went over to his house the other night for a BBQ. Grabbed the watch and saw the movement had loosened up. The dial was moving around when you moved the stem. I popped the case and found only one mvmt holder on the movement. I told him the watch could use a service, rather than just throwing a tab in there. He replied "why, its fake" being as steadfast as always.

Even though he seems to love the watch, wearing it mostly everyday, its not real, and is a throw away watch to him. I owed him $200 around the time I got it for him, so it was not a "gift from his son" either. Keep in mind, he's too stubborn to have bought one himself. So this is how I rationalized him trying one. Probably didn't help that two weeks after it arrived, the flip lock on the clasp fell off. (simple fix at a jewler.)

Should've got him a noobmariner.

[RWG Technical]

Interesting but I just talked to my Rolex service guy who is a master watchmaker and he refuted everything Ziggy said.

Very interesting reply by your "master watchmaker". Since I have no time for tit for tat posts (which is all this is turning into) I'll refrain from commenting on the numerous glaring errors in his comments and opinion.

Although I am confused as to why someone like yourself, who clearly has access to a master watchmaker, would bother with such trivial posts as this one that we are in, and these as well:

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=81341&hl=

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=81342&hl=

when it's clear that not only do you have personal access to an expert, but you have proven that I really don't know what I am talking about. So what is the point of asking these questions here??

I would ask that the next time you visit your master watchmaker, you take a photo of him leveling the balance bridge on the rollie, and explain how to check and adjust the levelling on the ETA ones (I really want to see the tiny level that's all...).

My favorite comments are: "soft screws", "aftermarket lubricants" (these wouldn't be Moebius lubes), "risk of hitting the balance" (most of us simply remove it from the movement before cleaning, but what do we amateurs know...), and my most favorite "ladies models are more challenging to lubricate".

Nice chatting, hopefully someone will add some thoughts to the master watchmaker's comments, I stick by what I said and see no need to say anymore than this.

RG

[P4GTR]

Z, I should take a hint and start making other friends, yes? RE TT's PM to you RE me?

[RobbieG]

Sheesh Rob. A little touchy here aren't we? That is some pretty nasty bile you are spitting at me there brother. I think I have treated you with the utmost respect in this post in all my dealings with you over the years so I'm not real clear where this is coming from. So what you are saying then is YOUR opinions are the only valid ones then? News flash: This post isn't about you - or me - or my local watchmaker. It is about making a contribution to an interesting subject which you have and I think we all are thankful for it. I'm just trying to get at the truth here by soliciting info from anyone I know to portray themselves as an expert. With that comes giving people the benefit of the doubt. I don't know any more about you as a watchmaker in terms of being an expert than the guy I just met. Yeah, that's right I just met him. He moved to town from Glashutte and my longtime friend who is a Rolex AD just hired him. I guess he is supposed to know what he is doing. Maybe you are right and he doesn't, but I really resent you insinuating that my thread is trival or somehow designed to take YOUR shine down. There just isn't anything of the kind here and you maybe need to rethink your attitude about it. I never figured you for the rooster type ready for a fight to the death if another qualified opinion invades your territory. The bottom line is that NOWHERE in this post have I slighted your opinion or tried to start a watchmaker war. If you see it that way I think you are wound a little too tight my friend.

Look, I have gone out of my way to contribute to my own learning here and the learning of others by posting many questions and answers, reference materials, etc. over the years and even more so recently. I have also made it very clear that I am soliciting info to others in the wild and merely reporting what I hear. So the real question is why you feel that if someone disagrees with you (not me mind you - I'm just an unbiased observer trying to f'ing learn something, man...) that you now have no time for what is it you say - [censored] for tat? I thought what we are after is learning and hearing other views in an open forum. Maybe I have that wrong? I never find it particularly surprising that two people in the same industry - regardless of what it may be should disagree with each other. I'm curious why it surprises and apparently threatens you.

I might add that in the interest of knowledge I told my local watchmaker what you said to see what his take on it was. He simply said that all your comments were accurate in that the phenomenon does happen but only said that it is less likely to happen with regular service which I thought I made clear in my post. He managed to do that I might add without a shred of hostility toward you at all. But yet you are hostile toward him. What gives?

And those two thread links you posted of mine? What may I ask is wrong with either of those? I'm trying to add to the knowledge base by asking questions for my own and the other member's benefits. If you notice, I even asked specifically in them for your valued opinion which I'm just as interested in hearing as the one from my local master watchmaker. Look, all I know is the guy is from Germany and has completed the highest Rolex training. I have no idea what that even means, but I'm certain that he wouldn't have the job he has if he didn't know something about what he is talking about so I guess I have to value his opinions as much as yours.

The bottom line is that your comments to me are way out of line and you owe me an apology. This whole attitude from you is completely uncalled for. Especially when I go out of my way to share whatever I can learn about watches with the group to the point of posting diagrams and making special trips to my local watchmaker for answers to questions that you (thankfully) helped create. You get alot of work from this board and that work comes in large part from people respecting you which you have earned. You know what? - so have I. So how about showing me the proper respect and helping us mortals understand WHY you disagree with this other watchmaker instead of stamping your feet and running off to your room. If you come back down I'll even bake you an apple pie and sing you your favorite song. In any case, I'm sure we will ALL appreciate your expert opinion as always.

Regards,

The "other" Rob

Very interesting reply by your "master watchmaker". Since I have no time for [censored] for tat posts (which is all this is turning into) I'll refrain from commenting on the numerous glaring errors in his comments and opinion.

Although I am confused as to why someone like yourself, who clearly has access to a master watchmaker, would bother with such trivial posts as this one that we are in, and these as well:

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=81341&hl=

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=81342&hl=

when it's clear that not only do you have personal access to an expert, but you have proven that I really don't know what I am talking about. So what is the point of asking these questions here??

I would ask that the next time you visit your master watchmaker, you take a photo of him leveling the balance bridge on the rollie, and explain how to check and adjust the levelling on the ETA ones (I really want to see the tiny level that's all...).

My favorite comments are: "soft screws", "aftermarket lubricants" (these wouldn't be Moebius lubes), "risk of hitting the balance" (most of us simply remove it from the movement before cleaning, but what do we amateurs know...), and my most favorite "ladies models are more challenging to lubricate".

Nice chatting, hopefully someone will add some thoughts to the master watchmaker's comments, I stick by what I said and see no need to say anymore than this.

RG

[RobbieG]

Since Rob seems uninterested in responding I took it upon myself to ask the local watchmaker for some clarification on those specific comments this morning. Here are the answers I got:

1. The lubricant issue he was refering to is that the grinding issue is more likely to occur with lube failure which obviously can be directly related to the quality of the product. He points to the fact that these days there seem to be all these "low cost" alternatives for service outside the Rolex network. His contention was really that many people use these sources and as a result many times the movements are not properly cleaned and oiled or even taken all the way apart - hence to low cost. When properly cleaned and lubricated using the materials Rolex recommends he sees very little failures

2. Regarding the full bridge leveling issue he said that it isn't normally any issue but just that from a design perspective it makes sense that something with two sides is always going to be flatter with less effort. Not that flat is always the answer depending on the postion of the microstella screws on the balance. Again, he reiterated it isn't a big deal, but having the two pinions on either end is nice because he can help solve some rate issues easily and without messing with the balance which obviously comes "balanced" from the factory. He just said it is always best not to mess with the screws on the balance unless you have to.

3. He said again that many of the Rolex steel screws are soft and if you tighten them too much they like to break. The ETA ones he says are super hard and almost never break with tension.

4. Reagrding the Ladies models maybe I didn't communicate it right the first time. He restated that since they are smaller there is some issue with how some of those parts fit together specific to the ladies model (I guess I don't fully understand what he means) in the case of the grinding rotor and that it can be tricky to get it lubricated correctly more so than the gents movements due to the size. So he says special care has to be taken to make sure to do it right whatever that means. His english isn't so good.

Anyway, this has been a fun exercise for me to continue to learn about the differences in movements and how different watchmakers view them. Seems like a lot of seemingly little details can make a big difference in a movements performance. I guess the biggest thing I learned is that as always, proper service is the key. Especially that it be serviced by someone who is aware of the little quirks and design flaws that all movements posses so that steps can be taken to prepare for what are known trouble spots.

Cheers...

[RWG Technical]

Z, I should take a hint and start making other friends, yes? RE TT's PM to you RE me?

Uh, NO, why would you say this? Why is it that people always come to these types of conclusions instead of allowing the person the benifit of the doubt...

Oversight on my part, my GF was out of town and this got missed.

Email sent.

As for the topic at hand...

@ RobbieG

You are reading far to much emotion in my reply and taking my technical comments to heart, they are directed at the subject not the messanger. This isn't an emotional discussion, so please don't read and accuse me of every sin under the sun because I don't agree with your watchmaker. Keep the emotion out of it, I have Being a technical person by trade, and dealing in black and whites in my day job (there is only 1 right way to do the job) my responses are to the point and dry. If your reading emotion your misreading my reply. I even put a smily face in my original reply, which I never do.

I am but a amateur watchsmith that's all, never claimed to be anything else, never will. Have been around watches all my life and I think I can hold my own when it comes to technical mechanical watches information or insight. I have serviced just about every movement around, El Primero, all Rollie auto's, Omega 1861, 861, 510, etc, JLC, Lanco, Tourbillons, Valjoux 23, 72 etc, etc...and you know what? Even with my being an amateur, not one of the movements I have serviced has ever come back with a problem after I serviced it. Not one...so I must be doing something right.

Your master watchmaker makes a number of comments, that if you posted on TZ would quickly be dismissed as false. Bottom line is you opened this thread by asking and stating things about ETA and Rolex movements. I provided my feedback, you didn't agree, and found someone that claims all I said was BS and untrue. Fair enough, I am ok with that because it really doesn't matter. I know my skill level and experience, and it serves me well, typed words on a forum will all but be forgotten in a day or two...or hours...

This is a forum for Fake Watches, which is why I commented that it makes no sense to ask here about genuine Daytona Movements, or highly technical matters (especially since you now know I am full of it) no more so that it would to ask about Asian copies on TZ? The experts are on TZ, or other rollie forums, not necessarily here.

Since you just met this master watchmaker, I am impressed that you were able to lend his ear (or eyes) and provide some further information, and that you were able to talk to him on this subject, on a Sunday morning no less... Even my regular customers don't bug me on Sunday mornings...

I have nothing further to say, I knew better than to post my first reply, as I well knew where this would go. I even sent a PM to a senior member saying what I though would happen next, and sure enough, deja vu all over again...same old same old...I tire of it...

RG

[RobbieG]

We could probably start a whole new thread at what may be the primary issue here punctuated by your comments about "black and white". I have a made a quite successful career recently out of disproving exactly the opposite in that there is absolutely more than one way to view or do every job. With that comment you have basically un-confused me as to why you might have been unable to absorb the slightly differing view. So to that end maybe I'm closer to understanding what the heck happened here.

As to my presence and genuine movement questions: There are more genuine watch experts here than I have ever found on TZ by the way, hence the reason that I tend to try and ask those questions here first. Moreover, despite my own collection being entirely genuine at the moment, I'm still here for the simple facts that the knowledge base (starting with you) is big, the people are nicer and subjects have discussions not limited to what a poster can fit in the subject line. There is no contest in my view between RWG and TZ and that is why I am here and not there.

I do a lot of business with the AD in question. It is a family operation that I am personally close to as well. The new watchmaker is sort of becoming part of that family so to speak as that is the kind of people they are - and I am. Truth be told I have kind of been making friends with said watchmaker on a personal level over the last month or so. I actually called him this morning to discuss something else if you must know and broken English and all he was quite amused that such a standardly discussed topic has caused such a stir. I guess the thread served its purpose since I for one, and I'm sure many people here, had never even heard of the grinding rotor issue nor that it can likely be prevented with regular service. In other words, at least I learned something which was why I sought out the answers in the first place.

But alas, instead of just ending at that, it was YOU, not him, that felt the need to attack what he was saying and try and make it seem that one of you had to be wrong. I don't have to even be a watchmaker to see that you are both right. Thank God for that. I kept telling you the guy didn't disagree with anything you said about the movement. He said that with proper service it is unlikely to happen but he was aware of what you speak of. I probably have said that about three times now but it just didn't go in.

In sum, the thread isn't a pissing contest. I hope nobody who read it walked away with that. I sure didn't. I was originally just trying to get at what makes these things "tick" - no pun intended - and I got there on this particular subject. For that I am grateful to both The Zigmeister and the mystery man from Glashutte. One of the major issues with discussion forums is that more often than not valuable discussions end like this one because one or more parties forgets that the goal is information and that neither life, or its answers are ever black and white. It is one giant shade of grey. It makes me irritated whenever a meaningful discussion is cut short because of defensiveness. It happens constantly and I just don't get it. No matter. Same old just as you say Rob, although with all due respect I'm surprised that you can't see what you have contributed to the "same oldness" of it in this thread. No hard feelings...

[RWG Technical]

No hard feelings on my end Rob. It was never an emotional issue, always a technical one. As Jennifer says to me, "you are a nerd" (albeit not a pocket protector one...).

In my line of work, it's black or white. Airplanes, Helicopters, Fighter Jets, you name it, I have worked on it.

Imagine your in the passenger seat, do you prefer

A: Ziggy who has worked on the wing and made sure ALL of the bolts are in place (White, or Black your choice)

B: Joe Blow who has decided that today, it's a shade of Grey, and with half the bolts replaced, he got tired and went for a donut...and your taxing out ready for departure...

That's my world, has been for 29 years now, and I am sorry but I carry that way with me everywhere, is it a result of who I am, or what my work environment has made me... I don 't know, but I do know the answer most will choose.

Same for watch work, I do it 100% or not at all.

There are many myths and BS surrounding watches (overwinding, etc) and I try and root down to the truth of each one. I have never had any issues with Rolex screws, normally over hardened screws break, due to brittleness, untempered ones tend to stretch. So when I hear what you stated, the two don't add up. Hard screws break, soft ones bend, Rolex has soft screws and they tend to break...do you see how that is confusing to me? So what you interpret as an attack is exactly this. I am sure in your own trade/profession a statement by someone that is out of wack stands out like this does to me...

In any event, as I have always said or tried to say in my english as a second language, I make no apologies for what I write. If you ask for my opinion I will tell you what I think, if I see errors in statements that are being made, I say so. Or as I say to Jennifer "I have to pass the mower, and do the groceries..." sounds ok in my brain and I try and make it sound ok here as well.

And I do agree about TZ, I have no time for the place, rep forums in general have much nicer members, and are a wealth of information, some not found anywhere else...

Cheers

RG

[By-Tor]

Those watchsmiths in the Rolex AD's aren't necessarily great ones. I took my 16710 to a basic check, and the (young, in his early 30's) watchsmith took it in. After being there for 2 hours he gave me a call and said the following:

"The watch has wrong oils, it needs service, and it will cost you 400 EUR".

Well, ironically this same watch had just been checked by the Rolex AD at London, and they said the watch is functioning very well. It was serviced by them 2 years ago.

I replied:

"Strange that it has wrong oils, because the watch is running in COSC standards and has a superb power reserve".

The guy replied:

"Yes, but there's too much oil... they have used wrong oils and the oil is all over the place".

This all sounded fishy to me, and I didn't leave perfectly functioning watch there. They just exchanged the bezel insert and I was happy with it. When I picked up my watch, I met the guy... and he was both young and enthusiastic. I talked with him about different Rolex models, and the guy knew it all. Well that's what he thought... I didn't want to correct the many mistakes he made during our conversation, or embarrass him and start an argument when he claimed that GMT II has never been offered with plastic crystals.

Ziggy said that the guy is full of it, and this is the exact same comment I got from another qualified watchsmith. You can't determine how well the movement is oiled without completely breaking down the watch.

And it's possible that your guy who works for Rolex, and has (probably) been brainwashed with Rolex-brand attitude, can't make objective comments about Rolex, either.

Rolex is not the greatest watch, not even close... it's way overhyped and nothing that special, really. At least not anything like its reputation makes it out to be. The movements are good and reliable, but so are the movements in Citizen and Timex. 70% of the price comes from mystique, traditions and prestigious name. That being said, I love the Oyster sports models... they simply are... Rolex. And no other luxury brand keeps their value as well (or even increases it) as SS sports Rolexes... no competition there.

But still, after getting a gen, I'm much happier with my reps (and ETAs). They're so amazing. I think it's wrong when people say that "you can't compare the rep and gen". This might apply to brands like Breguet and Patek... but with ETA-powered Rolex, Breitling and Omega reps... you absolutely can.

[RobbieG]

No worries Rob. BTW, I guess he must mean the Rolex screws are hard. All I remember is he said they break a lot. But then maybe he is heavy handed? It seems like it would take a lot of force to break one of those screws huh? Oh well, we obviously both lost a bunch of stuff in translation. Plus as I said his English is bad.

In any event I appeciate your taking the time to help me understand all these things as of course I have no experience working with watch movements. And again, I think it is interesting that different watchmakers can have different perceptions of the same movement issues.

Oh, and if you work on airplanes I'm glad there is only one way to do it if it prevents them from falling out of the sky. So in that case I guess my "black & white" statement doesn't apply and I stand corrected. I only meant that in any dynamic situation there is never absolution which is not what you are talking about.

Best...

PS: If you get a chance I wonder if you could tell us a little about the rate adjustment question I asked in that other thread. I can never get any other watchmaker to really explain why one method is prefered over another. It also seems like some movements have a ton of weights on the balance and some none. I'm interested in the relationship between that and the various methods of imparting pressure to change the centrifugal force. In other words is there a reason to use tabs vs a screw vs a swan neck or is it just the individual regional histories that determine it and it just stuck over time?

Thanks as always for teaching us Rob. We all appreciate it!

No hard feelings on my end Rob. It was never an emotional issue, always a technical one. As Jennifer says to me, "you are a nerd" (albeit not a pocket protector one...).

In my line of work, it's black or white. Airplanes, Helicopters, Fighter Jets, you name it, I have worked on it.

Imagine your in the passenger seat, do you prefer

A: The Zigmeister who has worked on the wing and made sure ALL of the bolts are in place (White, or Black your choice)

B: Joe Blow who has decided that today, it's a shade of Grey, and with half the bolts replaced, he got tired and went for a donut...and your taxing out ready for departure...

That's my world, has been for 29 years now, and I am sorry but I carry that way with me everywhere, is it a result of who I am, or what my work environment has made me... I don 't know, but I do know the answer most will choose.

Same for watch work, I do it 100% or not at all.

There are many myths and BS surrounding watches (overwinding, etc) and I try and root down to the truth of each one. I have never had any issues with Rolex screws, normally over hardened screws break, due to brittleness, untempered ones tend to stretch. So when I hear what you stated, the two don't add up. Hard screws break, soft ones bend, Rolex has soft screws and they tend to break...do you see how that is confusing to me? So what you interpret as an attack is exactly this. I am sure in your own trade/profession a statement by someone that is out of wack stands out like this does to me...

In any event, as I have always said or tried to say in my english as a second language, I make no apologies for what I write. If you ask for my opinion I will tell you what I think, if I see errors in statements that are being made, I say so. Or as I say to Jennifer "I have to pass the mower, and do the groceries..." sounds ok in my brain and I try and make it sound ok here as well.

And I do agree about TZ, I have no time for the place, rep forums in general have much nicer members, and are a wealth of information, some not found anywhere else...

Cheers

RG

[RobbieG]

Yeah, it could be, but more likely he just has his own opinions. Also of note is he is from Glashutte and Eastern Germany has a rep of thinking of watch stuff differently from the Swiss norm as well so maybe he is kind of a hybrid. He is old school though so it is unlikely he is like a kid brainwashed by Rolex.

Anyway, agree with all you say about ETA. Mine have always been great too. Just trying to get at what makes a movement tough & robust or if there is no telling. As you know, I have a lot of different watches with a lot of different movements. Its just that they are all effectively new (<5years) and never serviced so I can't really tell anything at this point. In 20 years I'm going to know more if I'm still alive and I will see which if any give me any trouble. LOL.

Also agree that it is bull that you can't compare rep to gen. And I say that being a gen guy. I just obsess over the finest details which I am well aware os stupid but I do it anyway. There is no effective difference between any good ETA rep and any gen in form or function for the most part - like the SFSO or a 16710 IHS for example.

Those watchsmiths in the Rolex AD's aren't necessarily great ones. I took my 16710 to a basic check, and the (young, in his early 30's) watchsmith took it in. After being there for 2 hours he gave me a call and said the following:

"The watch has wrong oils, it needs service, and it will cost you 400 EUR".

Well, ironically this same watch had just been checked by the Rolex AD at London, and they said the watch is functioning very well. It was serviced by them 2 years ago.

I replied:

"Strange that it has wrong oils, because the watch is running in COSC standards and has a superb power reserve".

The guy replied:

"Yes, but there's too much oil... they have used wrong oils and the oil is all over the place".

This all sounded fishy to me, and I didn't leave perfectly functioning watch there. They just exchanged the bezel insert and I was happy with it. When I picked up my watch, I met the guy... and he was both young and enthusiastic. I talked with him about different Rolex models, and the guy knew it all. Well that's what he thought... I didn't want to correct the many mistakes he made during our conversation, or embarrass him and start an argument when he claimed that GMT II has never been offered with plastic crystals.

The Zigmeister said that the guy is full of it, and this is the exact same comment I got from another qualified watchsmith. You can't determine how well the movement is oiled without completely breaking down the watch.

And it's possible that your guy who works for Rolex, and has (probably) been brainwashed with Rolex-brand attitude, can't make objective comments about Rolex, either.

Rolex is not the greatest watch, not even close... it's way overhyped and nothing that special, really. At least not anything like its reputation makes it out to be. The movements are good and reliable, but so are the movements in Citizen and Timex. 70% of the price comes from mystique, traditions and prestigious name. That being said, I love the Oyster sports models... they simply are... Rolex. And no other luxury brand keeps their value as well (or even increases it) as SS sports Rolexes... no competition there.

But still, after getting a gen, I'm much happier with my reps (and ETAs). They're so amazing. I think it's wrong when people say that "you can't compare the rep and gen". This might apply to brands like Breguet and Patek... but with ETA-powered Rolex, Breitling and Omega... you absolutely can.