Trusty's "Perfect Sub"

[kanerich]

Dear Sir,

It is NOT a false or misleading advertisement. "PERFECT" under inverted commas means that you get a replica close to the genuine piece but it can never be a 100% like the genuine. =)

The Case is different from the other Submariners that I have and the Date Mag is the best in the class.The extra work done to overhaul the entire movement, relub, pressure tested and waterproofing done with gaskets changed will cost roughly about USD120-150. You can ask The Zigmeister or some other watch guys who do this. They charged about this price too. Warranty is given on the waterproof works. If not waterproof, I will send you a BRAND NEW piece FULLY SERVICED to you. Thats our promise.

Thanks!

ANDREW

Oh well, I suppose you are right, we can only expect a reasonable replica of perfection when buying reasonable replicas of luxury watches. But I would note it is the seller, and not the buyer, who formulated this definition of "PERFECTION." If I agree to pay a dealer "exactly $250" I imagine I wouldn't get a watch if I paid him an amount *I* decided was close enough that he had no right to complain.

However, what about your PERFECT bracelet? No quotation marks there. Am I to understand that the bracelet is in fact identical to the gen then, with 3-piece SEL's? And what about your rather unequivocal statement that this is the BEST SUB REP WE CAN EVER GET? If someone puts out a better one, does that mean I get a refund?

My post was as much about value as it was about cost. It doesn't answer the question of why brand new ETA movements with nothing but a date complication would need to be broken down and overhauled in the first place, what benefits are conveyed by imported Swiss lubricants, or exactly where all those extra gaskets and seals are going. What case modifications were made? If a case can be modified to accept additional waterproofing, surely it can also be modified to fix the CG's?

Hey, you've thoroughly re-engineered the humble replica Sub, I'm glad to hear it, in fact bring on the perfect SD if you have the time and resources to redo the case. That's the watch that needs a new case. But color me skeptical when a dealer happily admits his "perfection" ain't perfection, wink wink nudge nudge.

Edited July 12, 2006 by kanerich

[trustywatchguy]

By-Tor,

This is a very good question. Everytime the replicas are manufactured from factory, they do in minimum numbers of 500-1000 pieces in a single run. If the mould is already decided and they has started the first run, the will never change the mould, in this terms..means no modifications to be done on the watch. The owner of the mould (Depends whether is factory or the person who send in the genuine) can of course decide whether to modify it to perfection but normally if the single first run does well, nothing will be changed.. no mods

Next thing, RE-RUN for the 2nd batch... it's just this simple. They practice what we call...

"If the tap aint broken, dont fix it" way of working..

Take for example, Breitling Bentley that was made recently.. the simple flaw of the wrong spelling of "switzerland" was not corrected at all...even in the 2nd run of production...

Question is WHY? Because factories dont really care. If it makes money, they just sell them..

Appreciate what you get in this replica industry...trust me.. it isnt very easy making those high end replicas. Every watch which is made requires time, effort and a lot of money involved. Nowadays, every time a new watch is released, many forum members will discuss about it and comment on the flaws of the replica..

But...ask yourself.. a year back.. someone posted this.."Why arent Breitling Bentleys made with Asia 7750 working chronograph?"

Today, the replica industry has it and you complained it isnt perfect like the genuine. Well, humans are never satisfied..thats a nature but learn to appreciate and life will be much much easier to live and love.

JUST A ADDED NOTE: The First Run of production is NEVER Profitable. thats why factories will quickly push for RE -RUN because it is the subsequent re-runs that generate the profits. =)

ANDREW

Edited July 12, 2006 by trustywatchguy

[bkatbamna]

I get my rep movements overhauled by Zig and Andrew's rate is reasonable. As a bonus, you get a guarantee of waterproofness. At any rate, most people assume fake when they see a sub even a genuine.

[archibald]

It is NOT a false or misleading advertisement. "PERFECT" under inverted commas means that you get a replica close to the genuine piece but it can never be a 100% like the genuine. =)

Oh. I guess it's just "MISLEADING" and "FALSE" advertising.

[trustywatchguy]

kanerich..

apologies if the PERFECT on the bracelet wasnt under inverted commas..well it was posted about 3am this morning and I was almost konked out. =P

Yes... you were talking about the SD. Currently to be honest with you..the BEST SD is Eddie's version with correct thick case 14.5mm (If I am not wrong). Joshua is also selling that same TW Case SD. I have seen about 5-6 claimed to be BEST SD case but NONE... beats the TW Best CASE SD and none came close to it.

Being a dealer myself, I have no qualms praising others' products. TW SD is really the best I have seen. =)

The other watch which I really hope to ask factories to perfect is the YachtMaster... very hard project because of the need to re-do another dial and re-work on the bezel insert and bezel click system.

But one thing is... over the years, the Rolex line is getting better and better so I let the factories do their own improvement and I move on to some other projects instead. =)

Andrew

[kanerich]

kanerich..

apologies if the PERFECT on the bracelet wasnt under inverted commas..well it was posted about 3am this morning and I was almost konked out. =P

Yes... you were talking about the SD. Currently to be honest with you..the BEST SD is Eddie's version with correct thick case 14.5mm (If I am not wrong). Joshua is also selling that same TW Case SD. I have seen about 5-6 claimed to be BEST SD case but NONE... beats the TW Best CASE SD and none came close to it.

Being a dealer myself, I have no qualms praising others' products. TW SD is really the best I have seen. =)

The other watch which I really hope to ask factories to perfect is the YachtMaster... very hard project because of the need to re-do another dial and re-work on the bezel insert and bezel click system.

But one thing is... over the years, the Rolex line is getting better and better so I let the factories do their own improvement and I move on to some other projects instead. =)

Andrew

Andrew,

Whatever definitional differences we may have, I respect and appreciate your civil and candid responses to the questions raised here.

[Pugwash]

However, that doesn't answer the question of why brand new ETA movements with nothing but a date complication would need to be broken down and overhauled in the first place, what benefits are conveyed by imported Swiss lubricants, or exactly where all those extra gaskets and seals are going.

This is what the high-end houses do to the ETAs. Chinese rep ETAs are put in watches in the exact same condition they're shipped off to Switzerland in, which may not be their best.

[kanerich]

This is what the high-end houses do to the ETAs. Chinese rep ETAs are put in watches in the exact same condition they're shipped off to Switzerland in, which may not be their best.

C'mon Pug, you know as well as I do that ETA's are robot-assembled from machine-produced parts and boast the highest quality of any mass-produced auto movement, and there's no particular reason they should be "off" unless there's reason to believe they are. If the Sinns and Breitlings of the world overhaul their ETA ebauches it's more to save face for charging $2000 for watches with $40 movements as for anything else. I've never heard The Zigmeister say that we should all have our eta reps serviced as a rule because they are otherwise potentially problematic.

[By-Tor]

By-Tor,

This is a very good question. Everytime the replicas are manufactured from factory, they do in minimum numbers of 500-1000 pieces in a single run. If the mould is already decided and they has started the first run, the will never change the mould, in this terms..means no modifications to be done on the watch. The owner of the mould (Depends whether is factory or the person who send in the genuine) can of course decide whether to modify it to perfection but normally if the single first run does well, nothing will be changed.. no mods

Next thing, RE-RUN for the 2nd batch... it's just this simple. They practice what we call...

"If the tap aint broken, dont fix it" way of working..

Take for example, Breitling Bentley that was made recently.. the simple flaw of the wrong spelling of "switzerland" was not corrected at all...even in the 2nd run of production...

Question is WHY? Because factories dont really care. If it makes money, they just sell them..

Appreciate what you get in this replica industry...trust me.. it isnt very easy making those high end replicas. Every watch which is made requires time, effort and a lot of money involved. Nowadays, every time a new watch is released, many forum members will discuss about it and comment on the flaws of the replica..

But...ask yourself.. a year back.. someone posted this.."Why arent Breitling Bentleys made with Asia 7750 working chronograph?"

Today, the replica industry has it and you complained it isnt perfect like the genuine. Well, humans are never satisfied..thats a nature but learn to appreciate and life will be much much easier to live and love.

ANDREW

That's very true...what you said about Bentley. Same goes with the new TAG Link Chrono, or PO 4th gen. All are amazing, amazing replica watches and like I've said before: year ago people were happily buying highly inaccurate Bentleys with faux chronos. I have absolutely NOTHING to complain about those watches. And you're correct: missing "t" from Switzerland engraving on the CASEBACK goes to anal retentive department (imho).

But Rolex Submariner is probably the most famous watch in the world. And probably the most replicated watch in the world. It's very simple watch, very simple design compared to something like Bentley. And yet they can't do it right, no matter what. I believe only in RWG there would be hundreds (if not thousands of buyers) who would purchase a visually 97% Submariner immediately. The case depth is too low (or high in some cases) and the inner ring/crystal merging isn't smooth... but gives the plastic white and "matte" appearance. It's wrong in every single of these standard rep incarnations. Bezel and winding crown always look wrong. They have attempted to do better crown guards shape but every single rep is easily spotted. I believe doing exact replicas isn't easy but it's still beyond me why such a simple watch can't be done properly after dozens of new batches... when we get amazing 1st generation versions from something as complicated as Bentley.

Not complaining, and I'm not even interested in Submariner anymore. It just bugs me.

[trustywatchguy]

Pugwash,

Thanks for the added statement. Most ETA Swiss movements fitted on replicas are not oiled properly and some are pretty clotted up with Chinese branded lubricants (No joke) though they still work fine. =P

Kanerich,

This is a very nice forum where we share what we know. Thoughts, Opinions and feelings may be different among all of us but one thing for sure, we share a passion for WATCHES. =)

Andrew

[trustywatchguy]

By-Tor..

The Submariner is indeed the MOST REPLICATED in the entire replica industry.. I have seen over 10-20 different ones from all over 10+ factories. Indeed, replication is never PERFECT. thats why the word.. "replica"

We will have to change this place to GENUINE WATCH GROUP if all replicas or maybe some replicas are made 100% like the real deal. =P

Joke aside, a while ago.. I was holding on to the Ultimate Submariner which now PT and ASPIRE sells. I was selling them then before and called it TWG SUB.. if you can remember.. There were some good points about that piece:

Good Bezel Insert

Good 120 click

Good Pearl

However, some bad points to note is DIAL always have markers falling off, not so nice bracelet (Logo is not sharp), the edges on the bracelet is pretty rough and unfinished.

Every Submariner made has its good and bad points. It takes a great deal of knowledge to see all this and many members are well endowed with that. =)

Andrew

[crystalcranium]

That's very true...what you said about Bentley. Same goes with the new TAG Link Chrono, or PO 4th gen. All are amazing, amazing replica watches and like I've said before: year ago people were happily buying highly inaccurate Bentleys with faux chronos. I have absolutely NOTHING to complain about those watches. And you're correct: missing "t" from Switzerland engraving on the CASEBACK goes to anal retentive department (imho).

But Rolex Submariner is probably the most famous watch in the world. And probably the most replicated watch in the world. It's very simple watch, very simple design compared to something like Bentley. And yet they can't do it right, no matter what. I believe only in RWG there would be hundreds (if not thousands of buyers) who would purchase a visually 97% Submariner immediately. The case depth is too low (or high in some cases) and the inner ring/crystal merging isn't smooth... but gives the plastic white and "matte" appearance. It's wrong in every single of these standard rep incarnations. Bezel and winding crown always look wrong. They have attempted to do better crown guards shape but every single rep is easily spotted. I believe doing exact replicas isn't easy but it's still beyond me why such a simple watch can't be done properly after dozens of new batches... when we get amazing 1st generation versions from something as complicated as Bentley.

Not complaining, and I'm not even interested in Submariner anymore. It just bugs me.

Got to agree. All I can think of is "Hey we sell so many, we don't have to make it great" is the logic. For something as customer specific and in as small a market as selling a Bentley to a Breitling afficiando who might have a higher expectation of accuracy, and is going to pay twice as much for it, they might assume they need to be more on the mark. I'm not sure

[Pugwash]

If the Sinns and Breitlings of the world overhaul their ETA ebauches it's more to save face for charging $2000 for watches with $40 movements as for anything else.

It's because by law they have to. If they arrive 100% Chinese, they can't call their watches Swiss.

[kanerich]

It's because by law they have to. If they arrive 100% Chinese, they can't call their watches Swiss.

They can't be less than 50% Swiss, but ETA assures that much even of its Chinese-assembled movements. Surely you're not suggesting that any ETA movement not modified by the maker does not qualify as legally Swiss?

[trustywatchguy]

Kanerich..

Well...it's still a Swiss ETA movement. The ETA stamp on it verifies that. =P

[kanerich]

Kanerich..

Well...it's still a Swiss ETA movement. The ETA stamp on it verifies that. =P

Andrew,

That's my point. Pugwash indicated that gen makers have to modify genuine ETA ebauches to make them "legally" Swiss. I don't think that's the case, they're legally Swiss when you get them so long as they are genuine ETA.

[tag]

ya opened yourself up for this... www.rolex.com

(sorry but it's true...)

"true"... but not useful. it's like you didn't understood the question.

[Pugwash]

They can't be less than 50% Swiss, but ETA assures that much even of its Chinese-assembled movements. Surely you're not suggesting that any ETA movement not modified by the maker does not qualify as legally Swiss?

That is precisely what I am saying. The 50% can be in value as opposed to parts. One expensive service in Geneva or a swiss-made overpriced cog is allowed as the 50%.

If it comes from China and is put in a case, it cannot be called a Swiss movement.

[Pugwash]

Well...it's still a Swiss ETA movement. The ETA stamp on it verifies that. =P

No, it's a 'swiss' movement, as opposed to a Swiss movement. If it's never been to Switzerland, you are not legally permitted to pot Swiss Made on it. This means that even though they print Swiss Made on the rotor, until it's been fettled by a bloke who likes his cheese holey and thinks a cuckoo clock is a good wall adornment, it can't be called Swiss Made.

From the Swiss Watch Industry info page:

Moreover, a law "regulating the use of the name 'Swiss' for watches" sets out the minimum conditions that have to be fulfilled before a watch merits the "Swiss made" label.

This law is based on a concept according to which Swiss quality depends on the amount of work actually carried out on a watch in Switzerland, even if some foreign components are used in it. It therefore requires that the assembly work on the movement (the motor of the watch) and on the watch itself (fitting the movement with the dial, hands and the various parts of the case) should be carried out in Switzerland, along with the final testing of the movement. It also requires that at least 50% of the components of the movement should be manufactured in Switzerland.

and

A Swiss watch movement

As we have seen, to be Swiss, a watch must use a Swiss movement. According to Section 2 OSM, a movement is considered to be Swiss if:

• it has been assembled in Switzerland;
  
• it has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland; and
  
• the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.
  

If the movement fulfills these conditions, but the watch is not assembled in Switzerland, the "Swiss" indication may be affixed to one of the components of the movement. On the outside of the watch, may then only appear the "mouvement suisse" or "Swiss movement" indication. Section 3 § 3 OSM requires that the word "movement" appear in full, and be written in the same type-face, of identical size and colour, as the word "Swiss".

[Pugwash]

That's my point. Pugwash indicated that gen makers have to modify genuine ETA ebauches to make them "legally" Swiss. I don't think that's the case, they're legally Swiss when you get them so long as they are genuine ETA.

I have addressed this point in my post above.

[migiandone]

Hi,

I do not know much about 'perfect' clones, since I am new to wathes world,

I want to testify about seriousness of Andrew, soemtime reps come doa, or

gone lost in shipment, or come with some problems, Andrew always take care

of this problems, only few other dealers I'd done business act same.

The new sub can be 'perfect' or almost 'perfect' gurus can say, for sure

the work Andrew claim on it are true. My 2 cents.

Regards,

Mig/

[Craytonic]

Andrew, I respect you very much and think you are a good, honest businessman.

I have a question that is bugging me though. If it is so hard to change the mfg process and the 1st run is not profitable; then why are there runs of 50 watches or so with custom casebacks, dials, etc (RWI watch, RWGI watch). The manufactures must know these watches will only be made once and in small numbers; so it seems these sorts of changes can be made for little finiancial cost - given they can be done for a 50 watch run?

Since we are talking thousand watch runs, it seems if it can be done for 50 and still be profitable, changes could be made to the thousand sub rep runs and still be very, very profitable?

Doesn't have anything to do with you or your watch, I was just hoping you could clarify how things work a little since I am very curious.

[trustywatchguy]

Craytonic,

Thanks for the good question again..

In the replica industry, there are many rules of the game. First to address your question.

Remember the RWG I watch which was something that look like a RailMaster Omega. Here is the answer:

In the replica industry, if there exist a manufacturer with existing case mould, you can custom 50 pieces, 100 pieces, 200 pieces and need not do a minimum (MOQ) of 500-1000 pieces. That is ONLY IF there is existing case available. The factory can do for you CUSTOM Dial, CaseBack, Buckle.. these are easy jobs.

The major most difficult part is always the CASE. So if it already exists, the race is already half-over.

If you ask them to do up a watch which has a completely NEW CASE, then we are talking about the entire manufacturing process which requires MOQ

Thanks

Andrew

[Craytonic]

Ok that makes sense. Thank you very much!

[ubiquitous]

The major most difficult part is always the CASE. So if it already exists, the race is already half-over.

Hmmmm... So, if I understand correctly, what you're saying then is that it's absolutely possible to commission some limited edition 'FOLEX' Goobermariner watches?