Are Mbws Really The Best Right Out Of The Box?

[Pugwash]

So it looks like the MBWs provide the best platform for genuine modifications but are not particularily accurate reps in and of themselves.

For Vintage Subs, MBW are the best starting point. For moderns, it's a different story.

[By-Tor]

@Sherrington:

Good points (and ideas).

But it's not just the SUBMARINER font that's wrong. The whole dial of the MBW red 1680 is basically a modern Sub dial where the SUBMARINER text has just been painted red, basically. ROLEX text is wrong, the coronet is wrong, and the markings below SUBMARINER are wrong as well (for the red 1680).

About the datewheel...you're correct. But like I said, you have to change virtually everything from the watch to make it close...which was the case in point here. We were talking about "out of box" models.

And I would like to see those perfect cg's you did. Never seen "perfect" cg's... or indistinguishable cg's on ANY rep Submariner. Never. The ones Palpatine did for me were the best I've seen...and they werent' exactly like the genuines, either.

Post a pic of yours, I'm really curious to see those.

Edited July 26, 2006 by By-Tor

[Sherrington]

@Sherrington:

Good points (and ideas).

But it's not just the SUBMARINER font that's wrong. The whole dial of the MBW red 1680 is basically a modern Sub dial where the SUBMARINER text has just been painted red, basically. ROLEX text is wrong, the coronet is wrong, and the markings below SUBMARINER are wrong as well (for the red 1680).

About the datewheel...you're correct. But like I said, you have to change virtually everything from the watch to make it close...which was the case in point here. We were talking about "out of box" models.

And I would like to see those perfect cg's you did. Never seen "perfect" cg's... or indistinguishable cg's on ANY rep Submariner. Never. The ones Palpatine did for me were the best I've seen...and they werent' exactly like the genuines, either.

Post a pic of yours, I'm really curious to see those.

I will do some decent photos of both my MBW's this weekend for you and post the same. In the meantime here are some CG's from 1680's. As you can see none of them are the same.

I will also include a photo of some dial variants as even these are not the same on all 1680's as Rolex had dials printed by various manufacturers.

Oh BTW forgot to mention I also fitted gen tubes and crowns and fitted gen springbars adding another $80 to the cost of the mods. So as you can see done for a fraction of your $1400-1900 if you have a go yourself.

[fahfahfooey]

This thread is such a great example of the value of the RWG community. It is so informative and enjoyable. I really appreciate the participation of so many knowledgeable members. There has been a broad spectrum of discussion regarding MBW's and WM pieces over time, but this discussion crystallizes much of it into one concise thread. Kudos!

p.s. I recently purchased the MBW red sub and sd and have not had time to begin mods yet. I now have a much better idea of which ones I will do.

[By-Tor]

I will do some decent photos of both my MBW's this weekend for you and post the same. In the meantime here are some CG's from 1680's. As you can see none of them are the same.

I will also include a photo of some dial variants as even these are not the same on all 1680's as Rolex had dials printed by various manufacturers.

Oh BTW forgot to mention I also fitted gen tubes and crowns and fitted gen springbars adding another $80 to the cost of the mods. So as you can see done for a fraction of your $1400-1900 if you have a go yourself.

Those cg's are the best I've seen. You did those yourself, wow!!! If only our modders could provide such quality...I'm impressed, I really am!

But they are not indistinguishable. That case will be spotted as fake. Post pic of the watch to TZ to all angles and the experts will spot it, there's absolutely no doubt about it. Same goes with the basic red 1680 dial. I know there is variation, but the default red MBW 1680 dial simply isn't like it should be. All markings are wrong... all. It's close enough, the cg's are close enough (after excellent modding), everything is close enough after changing virtually everything. But if you think it could go through "expert eyes" and pass...which, I believe, is the purpose of all this hardcore modification, you're wrong.

I'm not an expert but I could spot your dial, any day. You're probably correct that I over estimated the cost of a project like this (those were just wild estimations, just like I said). But how much is the genuine dial worth... that needs to be changed to achieve "perfection"? Those cg's that you did are the best that's humanly possible to do. The problem is the original shape of the cg's. They're curved from the halfway on reps (and way too thick from the bottom)...and genuines are much straighter and "spikier". The real cg's look like chops. You can just "see" the difference. I agree there are some minor differencies after years of polishing and buffing, but you still can't change an apple to an orange.

Don't take this wrong way (or personally), I just post what I see and want to be objective. Your MBW is one of the best I've ever seen... and the cg's are superb, I admire your skills. But don't kid yourself, it's not indistinguishable among the real Rolex collectors. Even if you change everything and get away with the wrong cg shape you just can't get away with the dial. You say there's variation. I _know_ there's variation. Prove me wrong, show me a genuine red 1680 dial that looks like the MBW 1680 dial and I'll show you Elton John wearing spandex in a powerlifting contest.

[Sherrington]

Those cg's are the best I've seen. You did those yourself, wow!!! If only our modders could provide such quality...I'm impressed, I really am!

But they are not indistinguishable. That case will be spotted as fake. Post pic of the watch to TZ to all angles and the experts will spot it, there's absolutely no doubt about it. Same goes with the basic red 1680 dial. I know there is variation, but the default red MBW 1680 dial simply isn't like it should be. All markings are wrong... all. It's close enough, the cg's are close enough (after excellent modding), everything is close enough after changing virtually everything. But if you think it could go through "expert eyes" and pass...which, I believe, is the purpose of all this hardcore modification, you're wrong.

I'm not an expert but I could spot your dial, any day. You're probably correct that I over estimated the cost of a project like this (those were just wild estimations, just like I said). But how much is the genuine dial worth... that needs to be changed to achieve "perfection"? Those cg's that you did are the best that's humanly possible to do. The problem is the original shape of the cg's. They're curved from the halfway on reps (and way too thick from the bottom)...and genuines are much straighter and "spikier". The real cg's look like chops. You can just "see" the difference. I agree there are some minor differencies after years of polishing and buffing, but you still can't change an apple to an orange.

Don't take this wrong way (or personally), I just post what I see and want to be objective. Your MBW is one of the best I've ever seen... and the cg's are superb, I admire your skills. But don't kid yourself, it's not indistinguishable among the real Rolex collectors. Even if you change everything and get away with the wrong cg shape you just can't get away with the dial. You say there's variation. I _know_ there's variation. Prove me wrong, show me a genuine red 1680 dial that looks like the MBW 1680 dial and I'll show you Elton John wearing spandex in a powerlifting contest.

Well this just goes to prove you know absolutely NOTHING about vinatge Rolex's.

If you read my reply closely you will find that I said I have posted pictures of GENUINE 1680's with different CG shapes as some examples UNTIL I photograph my own MBW 1680 at the weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the pictures on my post are genuine 1680 red subs taken, mainly, from TZ vintage Rolex forum. They all have genuine dials as well by the way. So you see By-tor you can't even spot a GENUINE 1680 when you see it.

I suggest in future you stick to OMEGA'S

[crystalcranium]

Well this just goes to prove you know absolutely NOTHING about vinatge Rolex's.

If you read my reply closely you will find that I said I have posted pictures of GENUINE 1680's with different CG shapes as some examples UNTIL I photograph my own MBW 1680 at the weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the pictures on my post are genuine 1680 red subs taken, mainly, from TZ vintage Rolex forum. They all have genuine dials as well by the way. So you see By-tor you can't even spot a GENUINE 1680 when you see it.

I suggest in future you stick to OMEGA'S

Hey, let me add a little Emily Post manners lesson here smiley faced icons aside. How about "Perhaps you misread my earlier post etc......" as an introduction to your point? I'm sure By-Tor needs no one to defend him but his replies were curteous and professional. Let's not take a great discussion out to the playground please.

[Sherrington]

Hey, let me add a little Emily Post manners lesson here smiley faced icons aside. How about "Perhaps you misread my earlier post etc......" as an introduction to your point? I'm sure By-Tor needs no one to defend him but his replies were curteous and professional. Let's not take a great discussion out to the playground please.

He was still wrong!!

[By-Tor]

Well this just goes to prove you know absolutely NOTHING about vinatge Rolex's.

If you read my reply closely you will find that I said I have posted pictures of GENUINE 1680's with different CG shapes as some examples UNTIL I photograph my own MBW 1680 at the weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the pictures on my post are genuine 1680 red subs taken, mainly, from TZ vintage Rolex forum. They all have genuine dials as well by the way. So you see By-tor you can't even spot a GENUINE 1680 when you see it.

I suggest in future you stick to OMEGA'S

Well you got me on that. Pat yourself on the back now...10 points for you. I didn't call myself an expert, I just post what I see. Obviously I made a mistake this time and didn't look the small pic properly, so what?

And frankly, I seriously don't care how big of a Rolex expert you (or any others) think I am (if you look at my previous post I never claimed to be one). But it doesn't break my fragile little ego if someone "insults my watch", either. I just want to help members to look these watches objectively.

Now... what if you come down from your high horse, stop acting like a child and attempting to take this discussion into personal level... and show me a proper (decent sized, unlike the previous ones) picture of a genuine dial that looks like the red 1680 MBW dial... (The one that looks like modern Rolex 16610 dial with red colored SUBMARINER font). That was the original question which you avoided. I'm not saying such dial doesn't exist, I just said that I have never seen one.

This thread's purpose is to serve the members, not my massaging my ego or my "expertise" (or lack of) in Rolex. That has nothing to do with this whole discussion.

[Guest overboosted]

not only was he (By-Tor) wrong but he was being a tad bit snobbish.

[crystalcranium]

Here we go....

"My girl friend is prettier than your girl friend fat boy....."

"Wanna make somethin' out of it???"

"Yeah, you and what army????...."

[By-Tor]

not only was he (By-Tor) wrong but he was being a tad bit snobbish.

If it turned out like that... sorry. That wasn't my intention. Whether I'm right or wrong doesn't matter, I'd just like to get the facts straight, that's all.

And I have a feeling this discussion is going off on a wrong track. Let's forget the egos now and try not to make it personal. Crystalcranium asked a good question and this could be potentially informatial, good thread. Let's not ruin it.

Edited July 27, 2006 by By-Tor

[Guest overboosted]

agreed, you both know loads more than I and 99% of the rest of us.

PS I just ordered my first MBW (1680 from George),,,,,,well second if you count the "MBW" LV Sub I got from Luckyy. Not too sure about that one.

[crystalcranium]

If it turned out like that... sorry. That wasn't my intention. Whether I'm right or wrong doesn't matter, I'd just like to get the facts straight, that's all.

And I have a feeling this discussion is going off on a wrong track. Let's forget the egos now and try not to make it personal. Crystalcranium asked a good question and this could be potentially informatial, good thread. Let's not ruin it.

Here here Now there's a grown up. Anyone else care to step up to the plate????

[By-Tor]

Thanks guys...back to the original issue:

Talk is cheap so I composed 4 different pictures comparing "out of box" MBW RedSub to the genuine...and then a modded version. Let me know what you think...and can you give me your honest opinion whether the MBW 1680 is extremely accurate compared to genuine or not (despite the case dimensions of course). Let's just forget the emotions and look at them objectively.

Here's the first comparison. The 600ft-200m are reversed on the gen here (weird). Notice the bright red SUBMARINER text which is small and narrow. Also notice the coronet and ROLEX printing...and completely different shape of the crown guards:

Second comparison. Notice the different shape of crown guards. I agree, there's variation but they're again like small "chops":

Third comparison.

Fourth comparison. This is the only one I have managed to find that has almost similar coronet with the rep. It's the closest I've seen...and the only one I've seen. Which makes me think of a redial or just newer watch model. Everything else applies, though... including the small SUBMARINER print & cg's.

Fifth comparison. Here's my Palped 1680 (that I used to own). Probably the most convincing replica watch I've owned (cheers Tommy, you're a genius!!!). The aging job was superb, just awesome. The watch was wonderful, no argument against that. I didn't exchange the crown and datewheel (and it's true that many old watches have white datewheels). But again, look at the dial and modified crown guards: immediately spottable. The guards start to "curve" downwards on the rep almost straight from the case. So I rest my case: how can you modify them properly if the shape is wrong to begin with?

Edited July 27, 2006 by By-Tor

[ubiquitous]

Good pics. And yes, rep will always be a rep. But it sure is fun to try to emulate! And, at the end of the day, that's what it's about for me...

[Pugwash]

The 600ft-200m are reversed on the gen here (weird).

This is commonplace.

[By-Tor]

Check the pics again. There were some probs with the Imagedump.

@Ubi: Yes, rep is a rep (except your Daytona). And MBW's are amazing reps. But I believe many newbies have unrealistic exceptations about them. Do you think the rep factory used the standard 16610 dial with the 1680 rep, and just painted the SUBMARINER red? Based on the pics I've seen of the MBW 16610 it looks like they use the same case as well.

Are there better redials available...or do you have to go with a gen dial (if they're even available)?

Edited July 27, 2006 by By-Tor

[ubiquitous]

Well... I think the dials used for the MBW's are very specific to the watch. For one... The dial sizes are very different between a proper 1680 rep (i.e. an MBW), and a modern 16610; the 16610 requires a larger dial. Second... MBW uses those Singer signed dials, which are not present on the 16610's. So... I don't believe it is a case of one dial being used for both... But, for what it is, the MBW dials are quite nice. Especially the white SD dials. VERY accurate for a rep dial...

[By-Tor]

So you think that white version of the SD is the best base watch to achieve closest possible result? I think I agree, I don't think I could spot your white Dweller as a rep. But then again, I'm still not an expert.

[Linder]

What are the noticable differences between the white letter and DR or is the white letter better since it will be under less scrutinity than the DRSD?

[ubiquitous]

Well... The 1680, as you pointed out, isn't quite right (but I've seen redials that look similar). The DRSD dial is a combination of MKIV and MKV dials, so still not quite right. The white SD, however, is about right, and the closest in appearance with regards to font, alignment, etc. The Rail Dial, is of course, excluded as there are some major differences with the genuine white font dial (there is no rep dial of the Rail).

Also... Something else that MBW owners know... The dial feet for these are cut off, and the dial itself is glued to the spacer ring, as STOCK from MBW. If you look at the back of the dial, the location of the dial feet are in the position for use with a genuine Rolex cal 1575.

[TJGladeRaider]

I have read this whole thread carefully and thoroughly, as I am very interested in the MBWs, and have one on my wrist at the moment. All I can say is,

"By-Tor, you're making me crazy!"

I mean that in the nicest possible way of course.

I study those pictures, and if I turn down all noise in the background, dim all the lights, and squint really hard, I begin to think I see what you see, and when I go back and forth til my head hurts, I really can see what you're talking about - especially since I can study my MBW with a magnifier.

Yes indeed, enlightenment finally pierces the veil of my ignorance, and I get a glimmer of pure, pristine, truth. This MBW is not perfect, and I consider making the call to cancel my order for the three more I have on their way. I mean, after all, mortgaging the house for three more flawed watches is not the act of a rational man - but with all the trouble I had sourcing them, I decided to think about it over lunch.

This afternoon, I look at my MBW again, with all the flaws you clarified for me, and the damn thing looks perfect again, so I go back to your pictorial, kick the noisy munchkins out to go play in the street, dim the ambient lights, and squint til I once again see that my MBW has flaws. Jesus, my head hurts.

Screw it . . . I'm not going to cancel my order, and I'm not going to strain my poor tired brain into any more headaches. When my MBWs arrive, if there is any remaining recollection that create dissatisfaction in my mind, I'll ship them off to Randy or Tommy to fix.

Bill

[ubiquitous]

If you have to look that hard to see the flaws.... Well, then you may consider that you're not the only one who has to strain your eyes to see these imperfections. The only time when they're really apparent is when you've got them posted as images, in larger than usual resolution. Then, they become the subject of scrutiny.

[crystalcranium]

Well... The 1680, as you pointed out, isn't quite right (but I've seen redials that look similar). The DRSD dial is a combination of MKIV and MKV dials, so still not quite right. The white SD, however, is about right, and the closest in appearance with regards to font, alignment, etc. The Rail Dial, is of course, excluded as there are some major differences with the genuine white font dial (there is no rep dial of the Rail).

Also... Something else that MBW owners know... The dial feet for these are cut off, and the dial itself is glued to the spacer ring, as STOCK from MBW. If you look at the back of the dial, the location of the dial feet are in the position for use with a genuine Rolex cal 1575.

Well, let me reiterate my question. From what you are describing, the modifications difficulty curve is pretty steep on a MBW dispite its' reputation. With quite an investment of time and resourses, you can get a great replica that will fool just about everyone except a genuine vintage owner. What about those of us who have a $250 "best modern" version???? Isn't that so much closer to perfect than a vintage MBW out of the box? Wouldn't some tweeking of the crown guards, a new case tube and genuine crown, an OEM bezel filed to fit put this one in the same catagory of accuracy????? There are "best moderns" out there that are so close out of the box, why can't they be put through just a few of the "reconstructive" paces the MBWs have to go through to achieve 99% status? Who is going to know my CN sapphire crystal with a 2.5X cyclops isn't an OEM aftermarket replacement?????