801run Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Hi all, Think I made a mistake on one of my A7750 reps. When replacing the movement into the watch after doing some experimenting, I was having trouble reinserting the crown. I was very gentle, did not use any force, and finally it went into place. The crown was then able to be pulled out to time-set position as it should, but I couldn't set the time, seemed like something has gotten stuck and I did not try to force it. Worth to mention is that the crown was in the time-set position when I first removed it. I then read some posts here at the forum, discovered that the best position for the crown when being removed is the winding position, otherwise the keyless works can be harmed. I removed the crown once again, now from the winding position, and tried reinserting it. This time the result was better, I can now set the date and time as ordinary. However, I can not wind the watch manually. When I try to wind it manually, it seems as the watch actually is being wound, but the rotor also rotates! The whole manual winding process now seems to be attached to too many parts, making the rotor and everything around it work as when it is being wound by motion! The manual winding also takes more force to perform now, but I stopped as soon as I saw the rotor was rotating by the manual winding =) .. hope I have not ruined anything. So, before I remove the crown and try to reinsert it again, I was thinking maybe some of you guys (The Zigmeister perhaps?) had an idea of what could be causing this behaviour? Have this behaviour anything to do with the keyless works (I'm not familiar with the keyless works, if it is related to the winding or to something else..), have I destroyed anything or can I simply try to remove and reinsert the crown again? The movement works and is being wound by motion, and I normally do not wind the movement manually since I've read this can harm the movement, but still, it would be nice to have the manual winding in function. Really thankful for answer! Thanx! 801run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Thanks for that reply The Zigmeister, I had the same problem with mine, except I couldn't manually wind at all (possibly if I turned really hard, but then I was afraid to break something). Time and date could set properly, just no manual winding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Thanx for the reply The Zigmeister!! The strange thing is that I didn't actually do anything to the movement, except for removing the crown and then reinserting it that is. I was only going to remove the movement to be able to tighten a loose pusher from inside the case, only to find out that the movement couldn't be lifted out from the back, I had to remove the bezel and lift the movement and dial out from the top. I do not have a case back opener yet, so I just had to screw the movement back onto the stem for the moment .. then when reinserting the crown, this happened. Well, I guess I must have pushed something out of place when reinserting the crown then =( .. I will consider sending the movement for service. DemonSlayer: How did you resolve the problem? Thanx again guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 DemonSlayer: How did you resolve the problem? Its with a watchmaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted February 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Its with a watchmaker OK, thanx! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted February 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Your stem is inserted correctly, the rotor spinning has nothing to do with the keyless works, and everything to do with a sticking reversing wheel. Only fix is to clean/service the wheel (preferably the complete movement as all A7750's are not serviced correctly as delivered). If you leave it this way, there is risk of damage to the autowinding gears. RG Now my problems are even worse! =) I managed to get a case back knife today and decided to remove the movement and fix the pusher now when I was able to remove the bezel .. everything went fine, fixed the pushers with loctite and reassembled the watch. This time, when inserting the crown, I can't get it right at all! When the crown is inserted the whole way now, it will set the date when turned. If I try to pull the crown out, it will come loose from the movement and the movement stops, sort of as it is in set-time position. I can then reinsert the crown again and get the same effect, the movement will start running and if I turn the crown it will set the date. I guess I must have moved something out of place in there =) .. maybe it was not a good idea to remove the crown when the movement probably had the date gears engaged, the time was like 22 or so .. didn't think about that until afterwards. Now, I've been keen on disassembling a movement for some time now, so I guess this is my chance! I'm wondering if this problem might be fixable by disassembling the movement from behind, beginning with the rotor and so on, I will use the ETA7750 guide to disassemble, or would I need to completely disassemble the movement, starting from the top by removing the hands and the dial and then all steps according to the 7750 guide? It seems I can reach the reversing wheel without removing too many parts, which The Zigmeister thought was the problem I had the first time. Now, however, it's probably a lot more than the reversing wheel that is misbehaving Also, should I let the movement run out of power before starting to work on it? Maybe it can empty its power reserve uncontrollably if I start removing parts when it is still running, causing harm? Thankful for any help I can get here by anybody! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 It sounds like you knocked the clutch lever out of the groove in the clutch (a common problem). The only way to check or correct it is to remove the movement from the case & then remove the hands & dial. The clutch lever is part of the keyless works, which resides under the dial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 It sounds like you knocked the clutch lever out of the groove in the clutch (a common problem). The only way to check or correct it is to remove the movement from the case & then remove the hands & dial. The clutch lever is part of the keyless works, which resides under the dial. Thanx freddy! When stepping through the 7750 guide I gave the clutch lever a thought, it felt like that might very well be part of the problem. I will try it, just have to get me one of those hand removing tools first .. thats why I didn't want to remove the hands and dial if I didn't have to, feels like it might be hard without that tool. I'll just cross my fingers and hope I will work this out! .. maybe I should get my self a movement holder also, while at it =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 If you have 2 small flathead jewelers screwdrivers, you can remove the hands with them. Place a piece of plastic over the dial so the blades do not mar its face & then slide each blade underneath the hand from opposite sides (come in with 1 blade at 3 & the other at 9 o'clock) & parallel to the plane of the dial. Then slowly rotate each screwdriver blade in an opposite direction. As the blades move towards perpendicularity to the plane of the dial, they will slowly & gently prise off the hand. This is how watchmakers removed hands before the advent of hand-removers. However, reinstalling the hands are a bit more tricky if you do not have the appropriate tools. So you may be better off waiting until you have the correct tools, or ask a local watchmaker to r&r the hands for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 If you have 2 small flathead jewelers screwdrivers, you can remove the hands with them. Place a piece of plastic over the dial so the blades do not mar its face & then slide each blade underneath the hand from opposite sides (come in with 1 blade at 3 & the other at 9 o'clock) & parallel to the plane of the dial. Then slowly rotate each screwdriver blade in an opposite direction. As the blades move towards perpendicularity to the plane of the dial, they will slowly & gently prise off the hand. This is how watchmakers removed hands before the advent of hand-removers. However, reinstalling the hands are a bit more tricky if you do not have the appropriate tools. So you may be better off waiting until you have the correct tools, or ask a local watchmaker to r&r the hands for you. Thanx again freddy! Smart trick with the screwdrivers, will probably use that instead of the hand remover tool then, since the hand remover tool only removes the hands, it does not help you to put them back on anyway. I read somewhere here at the forum a trick with a piece of tape (maybe thats not the right word, scotch perhaps?), sticking the hands onto the tape, then holding the piece of tape between the thumb and forefinger and fitting the hand into place. Maybe you can get the hands on this way, but it seems hard to be able to apply any pressure to the hands this way, making them fit real tight. Found the Bergeon tool for fitting hands, but they seem so ridiculously expensive for such a simple tool. Maybe I give the tape a try .. I have a dial with attached movement from an old cheap rep laying around, I can try on that one first .. or, I do as you say, go to the watchmaker and let him attach them. I've bought sort of a toolbox with lots of small compartments in, like 60 or so, with lids .. thinking I will use this when disassembling the 7750, since there are so many parts (depenging on how much I need to disassemble it), then it will be easier reassembling it, just following the boxes backwards in turn =) .. also bought sort of a desk lamp, strong light, with built in magnifier glass wich I will use instead of a loupe .. a loupe is probably better, but I do not have good enough light anywhere anyway so I thought this might be an alternative. Also need a better tweezer, have good screwdrivers .. need movement holder. Will probably buy some stuff from Silix site (www.pandawill.com), he has a bunch of watch tools over there, pretty simple but really cheap! And free shipping .. don't really wanna cash out for Bergeon tools for just this single job, might buy better tools furhter on instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Just a quick question for you guys who have experience removing and reinserting movements. I've done it a few times now on different watches and only messed up one watch when reinserting the crown, the one mentioned above. When I reinsert the crown, I do it before I screw the movement onto the stem, I've never tried it the other way around since I reccon it is easier to get the crown in place when the movement allows to be moved a bit, but on the other hand, when you press the crown release button hard when inserting the crown without having the movement fixed onto the stem, the applied pressure might move the movement a bit (depending on how the case looks like) making it hard to get the crown in correctly. Any tips here, screw the movement onto the stem before or after reinserting the crown? Thanx guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Good luck with this. Not to be a pessimist, but expect to screw up your movement to the point of no repair. Working on a 7750 chrono movement is tough. Trying to fix one with a sticking reversing wheel requires either replacing the wheel if required (good luck finding the part) or cleaning it (hope you have an ultrasonic cleaner. Doing this without the proper tools and no experience with watches 9 times out of 10 results in disaster. There have been reports of people doing this successfully following the guides...but those cases are few. Remember to have fun with it and you'll be fine. Don't treat it as an exercise in needing to get the watch up and running again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) Good luck with this. Not to be a pessimist, but expect to screw up your movement to the point of no repair. Working on a 7750 chrono movement is tough. Trying to fix one with a sticking reversing wheel requires either replacing the wheel if required (good luck finding the part) or cleaning it (hope you have an ultrasonic cleaner. Doing this without the proper tools and no experience with watches 9 times out of 10 results in disaster. There have been reports of people doing this successfully following the guides...but those cases are few. Remember to have fun with it and you'll be fine. Don't treat it as an exercise in needing to get the watch up and running again. Hi Toad! Jup, I'm prepared. I'm thinking that if I'm not able to fix it, I will swap the movement with one from another 7750 watch that I don't like as much, and keep the MB rotor (the mvmt that is broken is for a MB Timewalker with see-through case and MB designed rotor). I realised yesterday when toying with another watch, I was inserting the mvmt stem screws with the small pieces underneath, that I do need a better tweezer. Mine simply does not cut it, I find myself using toothpicks instead of the tweezer whenever it is possible, my tweezer also seems to be a little magnetic making some pieces almost impossible to grab in a good way. I bought a great tool yesterday! A big bouncing ball =) It just struck me when playing with my daughters stuff that hmm, this might work for case backs! It works like the Ofrei case opener balls, except this one is much cheaper and can be bought in any children toy store! The friction is perfect, I've tried it on one daytona and one SFSO, the cases don't stand a chance, no problem =) It has to be pretty big though, like the Ofrei balls, tried a smaller one but it simply didn't grab onto a large enough area. As for the cleaning part, no, I do not have any chemicals or machines or anything. I'm thinking since this error was caused by me inserting the crown, I've probably moved some part of of place, and I will be able to move it back to its correct place (if I manage to do this that is) without cleaning it with anything special. I'm not trying to service the complete movement now, just fix the error. I mean the 7750 worked fine before the crown issue, and it certainly couldn't have been clean since it has never been serviced. Well, I'll keep you all posted in this thread about my progress! I'm planning on shooting a few shots while I'm at it, perhaps make a new thread. If I succeed with this, that is =) .. I'll be known as the home-made-tool-guy if you'd see any pics of my setup lol. Edited February 18, 2009 by 801run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 As for my keyless works/clutch lever problem, would you guys recommend having the crown inserted in the movement when attempting this repair, or to attempt it when the crown has been removed from the mvmt? Thanx and regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Well, I'll keep you all posted in this thread about my progress! I'm planning on shooting a few shots while I'm at it, perhaps make a new thread. If I succeed with this, that is =) .. I'll be known as the home-made-tool-guy if you'd see any pics of my setup lol. Make macro shots every step of the way...it will help immensely when you wonder where a particular piece is supposed to go and what direction is up or down when you can zoom in on the parts. Non-magnetic tweezers are a must. I learned that lesson pretty quickly. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 @801run, If you don't have this- https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DesktopDefault.as...=3&tabid=28 you may find some useful DL here. As Toad says- good luck. Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 @801run, If you don't have this- https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DesktopDefault.as...=3&tabid=28 you may find some useful DL here. As Toad says- good luck. Offshore Thanx for the link Offshore! When checking the documentation at that link I see that there is quite a lot that differs between the 7753 and the 7750 (it is a 7753 I have). I was under the impression that they were very similar, but hopefully I will be able to use the 7750-flash-guide anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 When checking the documentation at that link I see that there is quite a lot that differs between the 7753 and the 7750 (it is a 7753 I have). I was under the impression that they were very similar, but hopefully I will be able to use the 7750-flash-guide anyway. If you REALLY have a 7753 movement...don't touch it and get it to a proper watchmaker. That movement on the super lucky deal end goes for $450 unserviced...and closer to $1000 and is very rare. You likely have an A7750 with a tricompax mod on it. I don't have time to provide the link for it...but there is a post showing photos of this. Look for posts using Search with combinations of the following keywords Breitling Montbrillant Legende tricompax subdial a7750 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 If you REALLY have a 7753 movement...don't touch it and get it to a proper watchmaker. That movement on the super lucky deal end goes for $450 unserviced...and closer to $1000 and is very rare. You likely have an A7750 with a tricompax mod on it. I don't have time to provide the link for it...but there is a post showing photos of this. Look for posts using Search with combinations of the following keywords Breitling Montbrillant Legende tricompax subdial a7750 Hi Toad! Thanx! Will search and check whether it is the tricompax. I mean, it is an asian movement, wouldn't all of them use the tricompax then? Or are you saying that there are "real" asian 7753's, and you can get that much money for them?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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