kenneth2 Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 i was wondering if any vintage guys could estimate the cost of buying a gen 6154 in todays market? also is it true that the pams of that era varied between the same model? like crown tube lengths thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 i was wondering if any vintage guys could estimate the cost of buying a gen 6154 in todays market? also is it true that the pams of that era varied between the same model? like crown tube lengths thanks definately more than 100K $ ... of course depending of the condition of the watch, movement, history etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmcsherry Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 The 6154 isn't exactly easy to come by. I think they made a total of 30 for the Egyptian Navy - I'd imagine anyone who has one and decides to sell it could simply name their price; it's not the sort of watch that you see coming up for sale too often! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 As others have said, a gen 6154 is rare indeed. When they do go for sale...either you know about it...or you don't. What I mean is, if they sell on the "open" market, they make the news. Others "may" have sold...but through the closed doors of the elite watch trading circuits to which we would not have access to, unless you regularly trade in these levels...and likely have $20M in war loot hidden in your basement. The last one I know of that got sold was sold late 2007 in Geneva for 2x it's estimate at $188,000 USD (221,500 CHF). You have to be careful on this one...as there is a PAM 6154 made in '53 and a Rolex dial 6154 made in '54. The really rare one is the Rolex dialed one...both with the same movement and case shape. The PAM one is a sandwich dial with similar case (possibly identical??), Rolex movement: The Rolex one has lume applied straight ont he dial, Rolex marking: From the auction listing: "The Ref. 6154 is identical in case and movement to the watches supplied by Rolex to Panerai, under the same reference number. The difference between the watch made by Rolex for Panerai and the present model is in the dial. The Rolex dial is a traditional single plate with luminous coated indexes, whereas the Panerai dial is a two-plate dial, the first plate being coated with luminous material and the second plate pierced through for the indexes and numerals. Rolex Ref. 6154 is mentioned in the combined reference booklet sent by Rolex to their various retailers and workshops in the 1950s. To our knowledge only 6 pieces were made of this model; this is the first one." This is from the valuation experts...SIX known pieces with the Rolex dial. With that many...the price is unpredictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VDBroucke Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 is the rarest vintage panerai with 30 or 31 pieces pricerange 130k+??? 30 or 31 pieces with rp dial brown and ca 6 pieces with oyster dial the case is a special design and smaller in tickness Toadtorrent have you more info`s??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Eastwood Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 is the rarest vintage panerai with 30 or 31 pieces pricerange 130k+??? 30 or 31 pieces with rp dial brown and ca 6 pieces with oyster dial the case is a special design and smaller in tickness Toadtorrent have you more info`s??? Yes, realy rare piece. The case is more thin, especialy the lugs, like on the most of today reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth2 Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 thanks for the answers not about to buy a gen, i was looking at rolli's rep and wondered what the real deal would cost also have seen some photos of what i think are gen 6154s and they looked like the crowns sat a little farther from the case than some rep crowns do i can tell the vintage arena is in a different league from the more modern stuff. looks like lots a opinions and gray areas since things happend so long ago and werent documented as well is an interesting aspect of the watch hobby for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 is the rarest vintage panerai with 30 or 31 pieces pricerange 130k+??? 30 or 31 pieces with rp dial brown and ca 6 pieces with oyster dial the case is a special design and smaller in tickness I only have what info I posted. I don't know if this places this watch in the category of most expensive Panerai or not...but it's up there for one of the more expensive vintage ones. Remember...new complications from UN, Breitling, Omega, JLC, VC, etc routinely hit $300,000 - $500,000 price tags. Throw in enough jewells, platinum and a tourbillon and you're automatically at $150,000. ...it's a big deal for a vintage watch to reach $30,000 as most were stainless steel and were either free or <$300...even though they might only be 30-60 years old. The most expensive Rolex ones are like the prototype non-HEV SD at around $200K, or the 6541 at $190K. Obviously I'm not talking about the historically significant ones like Lincoln's watch or whatever. The quote is from the Antiquorum listing and summary from their news release talking about all the records they broke. If they say that only 6 pieces of the Rolex 6154 are known...that's probably a pretty good estimate. These guys are pretty on top of the global collection scene as they want to sell these watches and want to keep tabs on who might have valuable collections they can represent. I don't know about the 30/31 pieces for the brown dial...that number I've seen mentioned in various posts on Paneristi, TZ, etc...but not from anybody of any authority or backed up with any references I would trust. Just because a watch is old...doesn't mean it is more valuable than something that is newer. AND there is no direct correlation between rarity and value either. USUALLY there is a relation...but just because something is rare doesn't necessarily mean it has more value than something that is less rare. The collectivity, and desirability of the item has to be factored in...and that rules all!! There'a an interesting article on vintage PAMs here: hxxp://panerai.watchprosite.com/?show=forumpost&fi=717&pi=2779481&ti=463631&s=0 It doesn't touch the 6154 at all...but talks about the differences in what you find pre/post V (i.e. 1936-1946 and post 1946). I haven't seen many listings for these watches. I saw another listing on a private site from 2005 and the guy was asking for about $130K...but there were no pics...so I'm not sure of condition, verification of dial, etc. I'm no PAM connoisseur...I just hang around a lot of general art experts and connoisseurs...so am used to researching trivial details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Eastwood Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 thanks for the answers not about to buy a gen, i was looking at rolli's rep and wondered what the real deal would cost also have seen some photos of what i think are gen 6154s and they looked like the crowns sat a little farther from the case than some rep crowns do i can tell the vintage arena is in a different league from the more modern stuff. looks like lots a opinions and gray areas since things happend so long ago and werent documented as well is an interesting aspect of the watch hobby for sure If it's the rep i think, the crown is too close to the case, the case have a double side screw bar, so bigs holes in each lugs. The big diffrence with gen is the thickness of the lugs, this lugs are the more thick i have see in rep, and maybe not enough curved. But you can mod it to a good size more thin lugs. If you are OK with the big holes in lugs and can accept it, this case can be a good starting point for a nice rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Because of the rarity of sales and what has happened in the last year economically all you can do is guess. But if the peak was $188k I would guess it has declined to $100-120k. That guess is based on 3646's which peaked somewhere north of $100k and the last one at auction not clearing the $80k reserve. The 203's (contemporary) which peaked at $150k are now readily available at right around $100k. On a smaller scale, Fiddy's which regularly cleared in the $26k now sell at $17k and 217's which peaked at around $22k have now sold as low as $14k. In fact three Fiddy's in the last 3 weeks have sold between $17 and $17.5. As the economy has gotten worse and people are forced to sell we now see a lot more "best offer" situations on rare watches on ebay and watches coming up at auction which you can get the results for. In truth, prices have never been more transparent for most watches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth2 Posted March 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 again thanks for the vintage info!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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