Nebakanezzar Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Recently there seem to be a lot of “new” members that are having “shady” dealing with our most trusted and valued dealers. I hope everyone realizes that what is bad for our dealers is bad for all of us. Something needs to be done to help protect our dealers, and thereby ensure our hobby can continue. These “shady” dealing have seemed too strange and malicious to be accidental. The intent seems more to do harm to the dealer and his ability to do business than to get a nice rep. I am not normally a conspiracy theorist, but I think we need to look at the possibility purists and/or manufactures are coming to our forums with the intent to do whatever they can to disrupt our dealings. But irregardless of whether it is a directed effort or simply morons that are causing these problems…something needs to be done. I have a few Ideas on how to try and limit the recent damage. First, I think dealers need to make a change in how they do business. Bad business dealing with new members and recent crack down on shipping have lead to many problems and higher costs for our dealers. We have all scene TTK’s rant for raising prices to combat these recent problems. I propose dealers require new customers to jump through a few hoops in order to get a watch; And make these same new and unproven customers pay slightly higher prices for their first watch or two; And further make them pay for their first few purchases via western union or similar. Once they have proven to be valued customers, give them better pricing and access to simpler payment methods. This could be one way to help protect the dealers, and it will help keep good pricing for valued longtime members and customers. Next we need to look at the forums directly. It is now far too easy for the stupid and for the trouble makers to come to our forums and have access to our trusted dealers. I propose we close the door on our open forums. Now before everyone gets all huffy, I said close, not lock. These forums are a great resource to anyone wanting to get a good deal on a good rep - I am so glad I found them - and they should be available for everyone to enjoy. But let’s face it, this is an illegal activity. And as such, needs to be kept in the shadows. Like my idea for the dealers, I think we also need to somehow make new members jump through a few hoops before they can have full access to our forums. Maybe make a beginners forum, with limited access and require new members achieve a, reasonable, minimum post count before they can have full access. This could help to weed out the trouble makers and the stupid and could be another line of defense. My ideas may be too extreme, or they may be poorly thought out and not practical. Or they might be good and very insightful…but either way we, as a community, need to realize that - unfortunately - it is time for us to start protecting our asses and our dealer’s asses. Thanx for listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Ultimately, it is the dealer's decision but I think Neil has the right idea. Who in their right mind would take paypal from a first time buyer for the sale of an illegal item? As for the noobs who find the dealers through the forums I have no sympathy. Why? The neophytes wouldn't know about the dealer otherwise. If a noob doesn't trust the reviews by other members than we don't want them here anyhow. Finally, if there is a problem they should be bright enough to know they can publicly raise it on the forum. At the end of the day I don't think there is a way to police the membership effectively. The dealers have to make their own decisions and they should certainly have access to a bad buyers list either on the forum or amongst themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 As this is cross-posted, I'll poist my reply on RWI here as well: It's not our place to nanny the dealers too much. This is, essentially, their problem and they are working on a solution. The simplest solution is no paypal for noobs. Anything else is too much like pulling the ladder up after ourselves. "Sure, noobs are dangerous, but I'm not." The shady dealings are far too diverse to be an concerted effort and paranoia is going to give us a bigger stick with which to beat newbies for being new, and that's not a good thing. The dealers, the largest victims in this problem, are talking. They will work something out. And if they can't, they'll turn to us for help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 It's not our place to nanny the dealers too much. I second that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehtolcad Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 one thing that we surely cannot fix is the seemingly endless supply of stupidity out there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Can I ask if anyone has known any of the last 3 people to scam EL..........there's your problem. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerco Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name=Pugwash' date='Aug 5 2006, 10:24 PM' post='98291] As this is cross-posted, I'll poist my reply on RWI here as well: It's not our place to nanny the dealers too much. This is, essentially, their problem and they are working on a solution. The simplest solution is no paypal for noobs. Anything else is too much like pulling the ladder up after ourselves. "Sure, noobs are dangerous, but I'm not." The shady dealings are far too diverse to be an concerted effort and paranoia is going to give us a bigger stick with which to beat newbies for being new, and that's not a good thing. The dealers, the largest victims in this problem, are talking. They will work something out. And if they can't, they'll turn to us for help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stac Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 I like the idea of "no PayPal" for noobs We are lucky to have access to our valued dealers and the thought of assholes screwing these guys really gets my goat Just my 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted August 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 It's not our place to nanny the dealers too much. This is, essentially, their problem and they are working on a solution. The dealers, the largest victims in this problem, are talking. They will work something out. And if they can't, they'll turn to us for help. I 100% agree. But we also need to realize what is bad for our dealers, is bad for us. Because of this, and to a limited extent, their problem is/will be our problem. Only they can decide how and if they are going to alter their practices to combat this problem, but we can still come up with ideas to help them...aswell as do what we can from our end... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leitztozeiss Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 You know, a similar thought crossed my mind as I've read these dealer complaint threads . . . the occurences of unhappy buyers seem too clustered to me. But, I am one those paranoid conspiracy theorist types . . . really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocket754 Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Something needs to be done without a doubt. This SH** has to end. But what is really the best course of action? We all can [censored] and moan all day but what we need is a solution. We all know this and I am sure we all would want to be part of the solution. It's amazing how many paypal complaints are showing up now days. Dealers may have to resort to bank wire transfers.... FYI...anybody in the USA can start a free checking account at Washington Mutual and receive free outgoing wire transfers. Of course that leaves the buying with no recourse. You have to take some risks to play this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahfahfooey Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 You know, a similar thought crossed my mind as I've read these dealer complaint threads . . . the occurences of unhappy buyers seem too clustered to me. But, I am one those paranoid conspiracy theorist types . . . really. I am a nut-job conspiracy theorist, too. I believe that many conspiracies or "self-serving, secretive collusive efforts" (for those that despise the term "conspiracy") exist in all walks of life, but I don't think that this is one of them. There are far too many more effective ways to sabotage than what has ocurred, imo. Now, if something happened to the hosts and/or the servers of RWG and its sister sites, and if this happened repeatedly and for long periods of time, and if the reasons why were more than elusive - then I would really get suspicious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 This is not about noobs......it's about people who are either just plain mean or have no idea of the consequences of their action.....but it's mainly about the culture of compensation....."I got a bad deal...so I'm gonna make sure that I get my money back and the punk that gave me the bad deal is screwed"......! Noobs can be here for months without making a post.....can be some of the smartest members...but not outspoken....can be a member of TRC for some years and yet new here or at RWG...so things like post count etc etc....don't really mean anything.......I've implemented apolicy of asking someone I don't recognise for some 'history' on the boards....if they can't supply that....I don't offer Paypal.....! The real answer lies in finding an alternative to Paypal.....if we look at it's disadvantages...there are several. 1. Paypal obtain too much information over the selling / buying habits of it's customers 2. Paypal have too much control over the transaction. 3. Restricting access to funds can impact heavily on a seller's ability to continue trading....180 days your moneyy can be frozen for. 4. Paypal CANNOT guarantee that you as a buyer will be re-imbursed for a transaction......only your credit card company can guarantee that. 5. Paypal payments take time to reach the seller's bank account.....5-7 days.......when dealing with a member that time factor is not taken into consideration when expecting delivery of the goods......a buyer wants his fix sent immediately....that puts pressure on the dealer to provide at 5 days credit. As an alternative I think most dealers would prefer to use either a bank transfer or Western Union......let's look at the benefit / drawbacks. 1. Western Union is quick......and secure.....all that's required is the sender's name and address.....receiver's name and address and an MTCN number......! Benefit....dealer is paid instantly.....buyer can have goods shipped the same day. Drawback.....buyer has no recourse to money sent.......! Benefit....dealing with established dealers who have shown their willingness to accomodate their customer and settle contentious issues.....reduces the need for chargebacks and establishes a dialogue between buyer and seller to provide customer's requirement. The other aspect of this is that if a dealer is going to cut and run with YOUR money.....it won't make a blind bit of difference whether you use Paypal or not....credit card aside.....! All of the above applies to WU and BT. So remember the old maxim....."Pick your watch...pick your dealer'..and..."never send more than you can comfortably afford to lose"....it's good advice....! Your established dealers are here to help you....not to crucify you.......it should be a 2 way street.......a win-win situation all round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerco Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Neil, If you don't live in the US of A, do you know what WU & moneybookers charge for let's say: europe ? Gerco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chad Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Devil's advocate.... Seems like though we are making an environment that we cannot complain about dealers if we need to. I have had some issues in my order history I have not said anything about it because I know I would get flamed and the posting would end up being 20 posts after mine saying...... "XXXXXX, you are the best. I love you and want to have your babies and that guy is crazy and you have the best watches in the universe." That is dangerous I think. I know what people are saying about noobs though.....my first watch order i was scared and it was shady compared to a "regular" ebay purchase or internet order....a tracking number that did not work, a dealer that after the order kinda disappered....a paypal to a random person i did not know....sometimes the 1st time is a little tough and requires a leap of faith.... Neil, If you don't live in the US of A, do you know what WU & moneybookers charge for let's say: europe ? Gerco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 I have always agreed with Neil on this issue. It has nothing to do with being a noob on the forum. It is moving forward cautiously with first time buyers irrespective of where they come from and knowing about repeat offenders. I do hope the dealers are keeping a shared blacklist though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerco Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Devil's advocate.... Seems like though we are making an environment that we cannot complain about dealers if we need to. I have had some issues in my order history I have not said anything about it because I know I would get flamed and the posting would end up being 20 posts after mine saying...... "XXXXXX, you are the best. I love you and want to have your babies and that guy is crazy and you have the best watches in the universe." That is dangerous I think. I know what people are saying about noobs though.....my first watch order i was scared and it was shady compared to a "regular" ebay purchase or internet order....a tracking number that did not work, a dealer that after the order kinda disappered....a paypal to a random person i did not know....sometimes the 1st time is a little tough and requires a leap of faith.... Chad, i have had the same experience with my first buy. And I too had some difficulties, but they were solved by the dealer. Dealers don't need to be pampered, but if you have a complaint: take up communications and if that doesn't help don't start shouting,swearing & namegiving....just ask help on the forum and give it some time. and ofcourse : do before buying your research and buy only from 5 * dealers. Gerco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 If you don't live in the US of A, do you know what WU & moneybookers charge for let's say: europe ? Monkeybonkers charges Zero euros for a transfer from your bank. Payment method: Fee Processing time Bank transfer free 2-5 days Credit Card 2.50 % Please verify Cheque 0.50 EUR 10 days It takes 2-5 days to pre-load the cash. Credit card, once verified (which as you can see, I've not finished) is quicker, but has a 2.5% charge. Monkeybonkers is basically the single best option for Euro-spenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerco Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Monkeybonkers charges Zero euros for a transfer from your bank. Payment method: Fee Processing time Bank transfer free 2-5 days Credit Card 2.50 % Please verify Cheque 0.50 EUR 10 days It takes 2-5 days to pre-load the cash. Credit card, once verified (which as you can see, I've not finished) is quicker, but has a 2.5% charge. Monkeybonkers is basically the single best option for Euro-spenders. Thanks Puggy, man, you're fast !!! Gerco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighDef Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 @ Niel, I think the question in this thread that need some answer, is why is this happening. What can we do to prevent this from happening in the future and can also be benificial to both parties. Have we really look hard what is causing these problems that will make a seasoned member resort to PP complain knowing very well that it will only hurt everybody? Archibald just got his problem settled with Trusty after almost a year, Luckky has dropped a few, Neil has so much problem regarding communication to buyers after money has been sent, to name a few, and so as selfish members not knowing the impact of thier actions Most of us can probably feel comfy not knowing what will happen to our money after a few weeks or months without any answer to your comunication to a dealer, but not all of us feel that way. IMO these are the reasons why a member will do such a barbaros act. I think the only dealer here that I have not heard any complain from anybody at all (except the new ones) is Narikka. Have we ever proven that a member made a PP complaint and some other problems just for the reason to hurt the dealer? Niel sugesstion on a different mode of payment will surley fix problems regarding problematic members and PP complaints, but will it fix the problems of the members regarding thier dealers. It should be a two way street. I think there is no answer to this problem that can benifit both parties. This is the internet. Everybody is friggin free to do what ever they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce79 Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 100 post minimum to view dealers section Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chad Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 would you have wanted to wait 100 posts before getting your first watch?... come on 100 post minimum to view dealers section Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alextor Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Devil's advocate.... Seems like though we are making an environment that we cannot complain about dealers if we need to. I have had some issues in my order history I have not said anything about it because I know I would get flamed and the posting would end up being 20 posts after mine saying...... "XXXXXX, you are the best. I love you and want to have your babies and that guy is crazy and you have the best watches in the universe." That is dangerous I think. I know what people are saying about noobs though.....my first watch order i was scared and it was shady compared to a "regular" ebay purchase or internet order....a tracking number that did not work, a dealer that after the order kinda disappered....a paypal to a random person i did not know....sometimes the 1st time is a little tough and requires a leap of faith.... As far as the first purchase goes...I looked carefully at the reviews in advance...and chose the dealer AND watch at the same time. You can get scammed on Ebay too. I think this forum provides a protected environment; I'd compare it to the myriad of scam sites that look beautiful on the web with triple AAAAAA grade 1 Swiss made reps that at best, are the ones that some of the dealers at RWG sell...only for a fraction of the price ($188 for a TW Sub vs $800 at bestswiss?) It may be a leap of faith...but everything considered, not a big one. The other 'must do' for me was to read the Replica Watch Report book (downloadable on their page)...This will avert unreasonable expectations...(perfect 99.9& watches that only can be spotted by opening the back case etc). When you pay over $400 the expectations are different -and rightfully so- but a rep is a rep... The RWR will give you a detailed view of what to look for in different models and is a fun read also... I agree with you that sometimes the Dealer Review area is a "fan club" of the dealers...and posting a bad review will draw fire and criticism...but it also has to do on 'how the issue is being posted'... In my personal experience, one marginal piece in 10 I bought so far is an OK ratio. I have not posted a bad review, becasue there were no merits...it was partly my fault (I thought I was getting another movm't) but partly an issue with a horrible and misaligned date. After sending the watch back and realising I was wrong on the movm't issue, I offered to buy another item as a gesture of good will...but privately. We all make mistakes... Thoreau said that the only thing that kept us from going to war was manners...([censored]! he was right!!! ) Paypal IS a luxury...just as we choose dealers they'll choose customers in the future. Noobs should be educated, but some are beyond hope. The two most common elements in the Universe? Hydrogen and stupidity! Cheers Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted August 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Devil's advocate.... Seems like though we are making an environment that we cannot complain about dealers if we need to. I have had some issues in my order history I have not said anything about it because I know I would get flamed and the posting would end up being 20 posts after mine saying...... "XXXXXX, you are the best. I love you and want to have your babies and that guy is crazy and you have the best watches in the universe." That is dangerous I think. I know what people are saying about noobs though.....my first watch order i was scared and it was shady compared to a "regular" ebay purchase or internet order....a tracking number that did not work, a dealer that after the order kinda disappered....a paypal to a random person i did not know....sometimes the 1st time is a little tough and requires a leap of faith.... I disagree. I had a issue with an order I got from Eddie. I made a post in the old RWG, laying out the problem...basicaly I was just asking if I was expecting too much. The concensus was, I had a legit complaint...and Eddie never took care of it for me. But there was a member on the board that had a few extra parts that he sent me for free...problem solved, no need to bring in PP. I think people need to manage their expectations. If you feel you have been wronged, post your problem and get advice, if you have a legit complaint, it will get handled...they always seem too... going to PP is a last resort, and as Neil pointed out, if the persons goal was to scam you, going to PP wont help anyway, he/she will be long gone with your cash... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted August 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Paypal IS a luxury...just as we choose dealers they'll choose customers in the future. they already do, take Maria (MBW) for example... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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