Watch Winders and Movement Upkeep

[Guest HeWhoIsLikeGod]

Well I have a few questions for the all knowning members of the new RWG. First off I am looking for something to keep my watches in and am curious as to the benefits of keeping a watch on a winder as opposed to just in a case. Obviously it keeps you from having to reset your watch, but is it better for the movement? I am looking for a watch case to hold about 6 watches only four would need winders, before I buy I wanted to find out if I should get winders or just a display case, will the movement last longer or break sooner? Also I just purchased an IWC GST and it should be here any day now. This is my first 7750, what should I know about it, how to care for it etc, I have read about certain times you dont set the date, what time periods wouldn't you set the date on this rep does it matter which way the chronos are placed? How do you break in a 7750? Anyway, I know I could have dug up alot of these answers at the old RWG, but figured we should start asking basic questions so the answers are given and can then later be found with the seach function, so please share all you can on this subject, thanks.

[offshore]

Well I have a few questions for the all knowning members of the new RWG. First off I am looking for something to keep my watches in and am curious as to the benefits of keeping a watch on a winder as opposed to just in a case. Obviously it keeps you from having to reset your watch, but is it better for the movement? I am looking for a watch case to hold about 6 watches only four would need winders, before I buy I wanted to find out if I should get winders or just a display case, will the movement last longer or break sooner? Also I just purchased an IWC GST and it should be here any day now. This is my first 7750, what should I know about it, how to care for it etc, I have read about certain times you dont set the date, what time periods wouldn't you set the date on this rep does it matter which way the chronos are placed? How do you break in a 7750? Anyway, I know I could have dug up alot of these answers at the old RWG, but figured we should start asking basic questions so the answers are given and can then later be found with the seach function, so please share all you can on this subject, thanks.

Well HWILG- firstly- thought God had all the answers- or most anyway

However- to try and help you along-will answer what I can here.

It is advisable to keep your autos running - therefore a god winder ( sorry ) good winder, is a worthwhile investment. But please don't just trot off and buy any winder around- there are good- bad- and bloody awful.

So - research is the key- maybe some of the gen forums may be a good start- don't think there is much accumulated knowledge here just yet on this subject.

Second a storage case- Yes- from my point the bigger the better- I now have a 3 watch- 6- 9- 12 and a 24 watch boxes- as well as a watch storage roll for 12 for travelling. So you see the progression- only thought I'd need storage for a few- filled 'em- and away we went on the never ending storage roller coaster.

As far as the IWC is concerned- is the movement a gen 7750 or an Asian copy?- With this resolved- some of our real experts may be able to assist- I think I have the answers- but there are far smarter here than I.

BTW, it is still possible to scavenge around the old RWG - you may get some answers still.

However maybe a visit to some of the other fora- specifically TRC, ( where the true WIS hangout)

may also assist your quest.

Hope this helps..... and oh... I really have been a good boy this year......... Ah no - thats what I say to Santa

offshore

Oh! and welcome aboard.

[Ethan]

I have a six watch Steinhausen with the 'fuzzy logic' movement. It has a drawer underneath for 8 more. I love it.

I would beware of the REALLY cheap models on eBay; here you get what you pay for...

[Richard Tracy]

I take the opposite view of winders.

Winders are first and foremost, a convenience device.

As with any convenience, there is a price to pay, that price is a speed up to the

degradation of the lubricants, not to mention that many of our reps, even those

advertised as true ETA, are not manufactured or assembled to the exacting degrees

of genuines, thus may have slight grinding issues that will eventually destroy your movt.

Winders are good to keep your lubricants from coagulating, however, one good winding

per month will do the same.

So if you take the view that these are only inexpensive reps which can be replaced,

and convenience is your top priority, then by all means, get a winder, but if you want

to keep your pieces, then give them a little more time and personal care.

I feel that a semi large collection affords me the ability to make these reps last

by being able shift the use damage over many watches, so a winder kills that

advantage, it also puts a barrier between me and the toys I love to play with.

[TomBombadil]

I agree with Richard. Winders are mainly for convenience. They probably won't hurt your watch much, and probably won't really help much either as long as your movement is properly serviced.

As for the 7750, the one that comes in the IWC is the higher quiality asian copy if I am not mistaken. My advice is just to minimize use of the chronos and don't set the date between 10pm and 2am. It should hold up fine with normal use.

Hope that helps!

[Ethan]

Good points, Richard, but I think it depends on the quality of your reps and whether you go in for pre-use service from Joe or The Zigmeister before they go on the winder.

If you take your reps direct from the vendor, and slap them on the winder, then yes, I would agree with you. Add to that an Asian 7750, and again, I would agree that you are increasing your risk of failure in the movement. But if you, upon receipt of your new rep from the dealer, immediately send it off to be disassembled, cleaned, and serviced, then I do not agree that you are accelerating the demise of your watch by then placing it on a winder.

The winder that I have does not continually cycle around; it has pre-set programs that emulate normal daily wear. Normal daily wear will not destroy your rep.

In addition, some reps have gen movements in them to begin with; take the 196 Daylight with the Swiss 7753. The winder wouldn't damage the gen, and it isn't going to damage the rep.

As I mentioned in my initial reply, this is not an area to skimp. Buy a good winder with intermittent programming, add the cost of initial service to your rep purchases, and you will be fine.

[robertk]

I've got several steinhausen 4 watch winders. Over the last year I've rotated my growing collection on them (every couple of weeks). Too date, no problems. Whether they are asian or swiss 7750 or not. I keep rotating them so that they are on a winder at least 4-5 days a month (assuming they don't get worn). Most of these I've owned at least 10-16 months. No problems with movements at all and they keep good time. My watchsmith recommended this. His feelings were if you don't wear them at least once a month, you will eventually have problems.

He specializes in antique and rare watches and i trust his advice.

[Richard Tracy]

Well since these are reps.. I don't think it matters as much, however know this,

some top flight gen watch dealers advise that winders will cause a 15% increase

in the time you will have to return for service.

[Ethan]

That's an interesting stat, Richard; have not heard that before. Have you ever owned a winder? If so, which model? Have you personally ever had first-hand negative experience with a winder? I'm just wondering if your "opposite view of winders" stems from a specific experience that caused you to switch back to a static case.

The Zigmeister? Joe? Any thoughts on this from the 'pros'?

[Richard Tracy]

That's an interesting stat, Richard; have not heard that before. Have you ever owned a winder? If so, which model? Have you personally ever had first-hand negative experience with a winder? I'm just wondering if your "opposite view of winders" stems from a specific experience that caused you to switch back to a static case.

The Zigmeister? Joe? Any thoughts on this from the 'pros'?

This is a very old subject Ethan, that has been rehashed many times before including posts

from The Zigmeister.

You will have to do your own homework for dig his opinions up, I already know what he thinks.

Have I owned winders,... No, neither have I driven my car through automated car washes yet

still understand that it's better by hand.

My opinion is plain common sense, as River say's 'Don't treat Replica like Genuine'

[Watchwatcher]

my 2cents worth.

i think that in time you will find that you favor 3-5 watches for regular wear. you may wear the others only occasionally. In my case, i keep the 5 i wear most on my quad winder (1on the wrist of course). the thing you have to keep in mind with these reps, is that when you keep manually resetting them (if they are not on a winder) you put a fair amount of stress on the watch unscrewing the crown and resetting time, date, other complications. even the threading on a screw down crown can wear out fairly quickly if you're not careful. I also find it is convenient to just slip a watch off my wrist and pick one off the winder without having to mess around with it -- the level of convenience may differ for you depending on your habits.

Good luck, let us know what you end up with -- i bot a cheapo quad on ebay with fuzzy cw/ccw and picked up a $5 timer at radio shack to stagger operating time a bit. seems to work, atlhough the winder is loud and very cheaply made.

Edited March 20, 2006 by Watchwatcher

[Richard Tracy]

Addressing the issues of hand setting, I agree if one has only a few pieces, not careful

or dexterious, or knowing the time periods never to hand set your date, then problems could result.

Personally out of 40 plus automatic pieces over a 10 plus year period have never had a problem aside

from a stem that came all the way out a few times on a Tag rep I once owned, which I was able both

times to pop back in place,..also since passed onto the kids, which still runs fine post one year.

I stress however that my larger collection made it possible for little handling, so if you have only a

small collection, and are unsure how good you are with your hands, a winder may be your best bet,

if you are sure that your movements are proper in material, lubrication and adjustment.

Hope all the opinions here helps you.

[Ethan]

This is a very old subject Ethan, that has been rehashed many times before including posts

from The Zigmeister.

You will have to do your own homework for dig his opinions up, I already know what he thinks.

Have I owned winders,... No, neither have I driven my car through automated car washes yet

still understand that it's better by hand.

My opinion is plain common sense, as River say's 'Don't treat Replica like Genuine'

Please don't take this personally, Richard; I'm just trying to get some accurate information for our new friend. I was simply interested in whether your information was based on actual fact, or just a speculative opinion. Challenging opinions on the board is a fact of life here; again, nothing personal.

I have done my homework, and I bought a winder based on the information I collected. Joe just PM'd me, and here's his two-cents:

"i like winders , i think keeping your timepiece wound would keep the timing running smoother and more accurately , than one that stops and goes, as far as wear and tear i dont think either or is a realy big proven fact, i do think if your watch sits the oil dries up faster".

So, it seems you have some differing views on this subject, HeWhoIsLikeGod. Robertk, Watchwatcher, rbj69 (Joe), and I all have winders and have not had any problems with them. Offshore may or may not have a winder, but is in favour. TomBombadil sees them more as a convenience, and Richard Tracy's opinion is that they are actually harmful in the long run. I hope this has at least provided some information. Keep us posted on what decision you make.

Best of luck.

[Guest HeWhoIsLikeGod]

my 2cents worth.

i think that in time you will find that you favor 3-5 watches for regular wear. you may wear the others only occasionally. In my case, i keep the 5 i wear most on my quad winder (1on the wrist of course). the thing you have to keep in mind with these reps, is that when you keep manually resetting them (if they are not on a winder) you put a fair amount of stress on the watch unscrewing the crown and resetting time, date, other complications. even the threading on a screw down crown can wear out fairly quickly if you're not careful. I also find it is convenient to just slip a watch off my wrist and pick one off the winder without having to mess around with it -- the level of convenience may differ for you depending on your habits.

Good luck, let us know what you end up with -- i bot a cheapo quad on ebay with fuzzy cw/ccw and picked up a $5 timer at radio shack to stagger operating time a bit. seems to work, atlhough the winder is loud and very cheaply made.

I agree that I will finda few I like and wear hopefully this is it , because I don't think I need more than 5 or 6. Here is the list tell me what you think:

Rolex Explorer I

IWC GST SS Black

Piaget Upstream White w/ leather and ss band

DW 6263 white face black chronos

PAM 111h

this is all i have so far, do you see a trend, I tend to go for only the most accurate reps. The biggest case/ winder I would want is 10 but would like some storage in it too. I am not asking anyone to research boxes, etc for me as I am busy doing that right now, but if you know of any good boxes or winders with room for 5 to 10 watches lmk. while I feel my collection is pretty well complete and diverse enough for me, i know i will fall in love with more. Thanks for all the opinions so far.

Edited March 20, 2006 by HeWhoIsLikeGod

[Watchwatcher]

nice collection. of the 2 or 3 dozen watches i own, the two best in terms of accuracy are the mbw 1680 and FM Conq 2893. I think if the first rep i had bot was the1680, i probably would have stopped there -- no, maybe not. but anyhow, i also wear my pam 027A, rg pam 158 and seiko OM. i've got a lot of nice ones that rarely see the light of day, but it is nice to dig them out every once in a while.

[Richard Tracy]

Please don't take this personally, Richard; I'm just trying to get some accurate information for our new friend. I was simply interested in whether your information was based on actual fact, or just a speculative opinion. Challenging opinions on the board is a fact of life here; again, nothing personal.

I have done my homework, and I bought a winder based on the information I collected. Joe just PM'd me, and here's his two-cents:

"i like winders , i think keeping your timepiece wound would keep the timing running smoother and more accurately , than one that stops and goes, as far as wear and tear i dont think either or is a realy big proven fact, i do think if your watch sits the oil dries up faster".

I don't take it personal Ethan, as a matter of fact I relish intelligent discussion.

I just get a bit weary of the 'Who the heck are you ?' attitude from people that

are not familar with my duration on these boards, which is substantial.

Not saying that you came on such...

Think about this, Mechanical Watches have been around since the mid 1700's

from which there are many still in running condition from all decades,.....and Winders.. ?

2nd, these are gears pushing gears,. metal to metal, thus with any type of mechanical

device, they have an in use life duration, that depends upon the material, the way that material

is aligned and constructed, and the lubrication used, which there are many types.

I would bet that Joe or The Zigmeister has seen the metal shavings and bits mixed in the old

lubrication in watches that they have repaired.

It's common sense, no degree required.

The more use, the quicker that life is used, and faster on materials that are not the

most expensive, or well constructed.

Now keeping in mind these are reps... and most don't have the famous 7753, are you

sure you still want to say that winders are beneficial ?

As to the coagulating lubricant on sitting watches, that factor is non void with just one

full winding per month.

I have heard these facts on care, plus the 15% rule, which in my opinion is low, many times

over the years from watch experts, while I hear the opposite from winder sellers.

Who would you believe ? And in the face of mechanical logic, is there really any sound

reason to augue for winders outside of convenience, the material of some crown stems,

the fact that some are not good with their hands, or last but not least,...

a need to justify a substantial purchase that one has already made ?

I say no.

Lastly,

Having a winder or two for a few months or years does little in proof that you

are not shortening the life of your replicas, even if they last five years,.. they

could most probably last much longer without that constant wear, as long at

they are given some occasional personal attention.

In my own opinion of course...

[Ethan]

As I said, just looking for detailed information.

Can we agree to disagree?

[JJFlash]

This topic has been discussed so many, many times.

The bottom line is it probably doesn't make much difference in terms of movement longevity either way.

We have members that adamently believe that winders prolong the movements life.

We have members that adamently believe that winders shorten the movements life.

I don't think there is much of a measurable difference either way.

However, if you had only one watch that you wore, (and many people outside this forum do), that watch woud be constantly wound and on your wrist every day. Constantly running and running, as they are designed to do. You would never wear it only one day a month, and then let it rest the other 29 days hoping to prolong its life. A watch winder minics a watch on your wrist. The watch mechanically has no idea whether it is on the winder or on your wrist! Though it probably has less mechanical stress being gently rotated on a winder versus day to day wrist trauma. Damn that was hard hit - look - deep scratch on the bezel that time!

My only other comment would be about the crown tubes. Though our replicas are dramatically improving over the past two years, we still have crummy crown tubes. Often hard to thread, easy to cross thread. Me thinks crown tubes are still a significant weakness in our watches. The less you have to mess with them, the better.

Edited March 21, 2006 by JJFlash

[Ethan]

Well said, JJ.

[Richard Tracy]

Oh Ethan, you love a party line don't you ?

Besides the fact that this subject is tired, which I mentioned earlier..

and the crown stems, also mentioned earlier,

{which I have yet to have any problems with, after Year upon Years.}

I do want to reply to JJ's quote;

"The watch mechanically has no idea whether it is on the winder or on your wrist."

Below is an article one of many such that I found regarding winders.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Experts suggest that if you choose to purchase a watch winder to choose one with care. Since automatic watches are designed to store energy based on human body movement, watch winders should be created to mimic those movements as closely as possible. Carefully crafted and designed watch winders perform fixed number of directions and types of movement. Poorly crafted watch winders may not have as smooth or delicate movements thereby causing unnecessary damage to the delicate workings of your treasured timepiece.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thing is, most people don't know this when they go for their watch winder purchase,

but the bottom line is that these specially designed winders are very expensive,

so if there is no benefit besides convenience, just admit that you are paying out

the ying yang, basically because you are lazy. and we will agree to call it a day....

[SF_Mike]

Good luck, let us know what you end up with -- i bot a cheapo quad on ebay with fuzzy cw/ccw and picked up a $5 timer at radio shack to stagger operating time a bit. seems to work, atlhough the winder is loud and very cheaply made.

Great idea... I was planning to get a cheapo quad off ebay, but was worried about the noise because it would be in my bedroom at night. The timer idea is great... only let it run during the day. I like it.

[JJFlash]

Below is an article one of many such that I found regarding winders.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Experts suggest that if you choose to purchase a watch winder to choose one with care. Since automatic watches are designed to store energy based on human body movement, watch winders should be created to mimic those movements as closely as possible. Carefully crafted and designed watch winders perform fixed number of directions and types of movement. Poorly crafted watch winders may not have as smooth or delicate movements thereby causing unnecessary damage to the delicate workings of your treasured timepiece.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this is a totally absurd statement and illogical.

My ETA 2836-2 is designed to be fully wound at 650 revolutions per day either clockwise or counterclockwise.

If it sits in my watch winder at 650 revolutions per day it is perfectly wound.

On my wrist, and I am no couch potato, it vastly exceeds 650 revolutions per day easily.

On top of that it suffers the daily iimpacts of bumping door jams, colliding with the desk, clashing on the chair, and many other traumatic forces.

I would say the watch is much safer in the winder than on the wrist.

I have never broken a watch in a winder, however I have broken several on the wrist.

If you believe a watch winder that does not have a "smooth or delicate movements thereby causing unnecessary damage to the delicate workings of your treasured timepiece", then you would never, ever risk wearing that timepiece on your wrist because it would most certainly be instantly destroyed.

This reads like propaganda from one of those highly expensive watch winder companys.

---"The only good watch winder is a $2000 watch winder"--- rubbish.

The only watch winder that I believe that can do damage, is one that runs constantly.

The clutch mechanism would be constantly slipping causing premature wear.

If you buy a watch winder, buy one that matches the requirements of the movement.

http://www.orbita.at/pages_us/database_us.htm

[Richard Tracy]

I think this is a totally absurd statement and illogical.

My ETA 2836-2 is designed to be fully wound at 650 revolutions per day either clockwise or counterclockwise.

If it sits in my watch winder at 650 revolutions per day it is perfectly wound.

On my wrist, and I am no couch potato, it vastly exceeds 650 revolutions per day easily.

On top of that it suffers the daily iimpacts of bumping door jams, colliding with the desk, clashing on the chair, and many other traumatic forces.

I would say the watch is much safer in the winder than on the wrist.

I have never broken a watch in a winder, however I have broken several on the wrist.

If you believe a watch winder that does not have a "smooth or delicate movements thereby causing unnecessary damage to the delicate workings of your treasured timepiece", then you would never, ever risk wearing that timepiece on your wrist because it would most certainly be instantly destroyed.

This reads like propaganda from one of those highly expensive watch winder companys.

---"The only good watch winder is a $2000 watch winder"--- rubbish.

The only watch winder that I believe that can do damage, is one that runs constantly.

The clutch mechanism would be constantly slipping causing premature wear.

If you buy a watch winder, buy one that matches the requirements of the movement.

http://www.orbita.at/pages_us/database_us.htm

Whoa Nelly.. you don't mince words do you ?

Let's keep it friendly,..

Weather you agree or not, read experts from TimeZone regarding the

necessity of winders, and possible damage resulting from.

http://www.timezone.com/library/wwatchfaq/...668591017665598

See 2.3 What is a watch winder, and do I need one ?

As to the question of sales hype here is information from an honest Watch winder dealer...

some of what agrees with your views..

http://www.watchcases.com/automaticwat.html

though some of it does not...

I personally have fallen into the purist stage, I will only own mechanicals, never a quartz,

I will not own a faux function watch and will never own a watch winder, preferring to handle

the winding and setting of my watches by mine own hand.

Those are my views,.. so be ready for me to come into certain posts and comment..

and I hope you, and others on the other side of those fences can read my views without anger,..

that is what we are here for ... Right ?

[JJFlash]

No animosity intended to you at all Richard.

Nothing but respect for intelligent discussion with you!

Time Zone sums it all up best:

"Last word - winders are not a necessity, they are a convenience. You should decide whether they are worth it based on whether you feel inconvenienced resetting your automatics occasionally, and whether they are worth it to you as a luxury item."

I don't personally feel that a good watch winders is dangerous to our watches, as previously described.

I do believe there is confusion about the physics involved here, as I have clumsily tried to point out.

Have enjoyed the point / counterpoint debate with you.

Let me buy you a beer.

[Ethan]

Oh Ethan, you love a party line don't you ?

just admit that you are paying out

the ying yang, basically because you are lazy. and we will agree to call it a day....

Well, that's friendly.