funkybuda Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Hey guys, I have only entered this wonderful world of Rep Watch in less then a week and was lucky enough to find this site on the first day. I am truly amazed and overwhelmed by the amount of information and knowledge that people are willing to share with one another here. What started me off was seeing a beautiful Pam 88 in some ads. Then for a short while, I spent more time researching for a rep Graham Swordfish, as some "review site" ranked it as 1 of the top 10 most accurate rep watches AND others are also saying that Pam reps are dime in a dozen nowadays. But in the end, I can't resist the subtle elegance of a Pam, it's bold yet not too flashy. I have also spent sometime lurking around this area, trying to find out all the information I need by exhausting the "search" button before I put up yet another noobi thread, bugging you guys. I did find a lots of answers/information as I go through different models, and here are some of the things I learned: 1. My first love, Pam 88, probably has two best out of box versions: cartel best version ( $428 from Josh ) and DavidSen. All has its pros and cons with most people saying DavidSen's is a bit closer to the gen out of box and also better bang for the buck. The biggest problems are the shades of the dial/sub dial, boldness of the small numbers, cyclops, placement of the "swiss made" at the bottom and CG. 2. Then I spotted a Pam 186 Arktos, loved it but again, it doesn't seem to have better reps then the Pam 88 I mentioned above. The best I've seen is from Josh for $288. So needless to say, it's definitely not even close to his "best version" as he charges them at the ridiculous price of $428:) Also, it's a limited edition of 500 units world wide, so even if I spot one on the street, I will automatically assume, just like many others should/would do, that it's a rep, not a gen, simply because of the extreme low probability of running into 1 in 500 of anything in this world:) 3. The Pam 212 also caught my eye, but again, there are just so many elements of the watch that even the most dedicated watch collector can easily miss, not to mention that the only reps I find from reputable collectors are all using mineral glass or synthetic sapphire, which are probably other ways of calling regular glass or even plastic:) Having gone through these, I started to think if my objective is to find a rep Pam that can be as close to the gen as possible, right out of the box, maybe I should look for some model that doesn't have that many "variables" where the details can easily be missed? For instance, I love Pam 88, but if the color of the dial/sub dial, or the mag at 3 o'clock, or even the fonts of the small numbers are some of the easy giveaways, I should find a model that doesn't have those elements to begin with. Make sense? Now, following that same logic, would you agree that a Pam 111 should be an in-production, AND not a limited edition model that's easier to rep as close to gen out of the box? Or maybe there are some other models ( I just can't believe how many Pam models there are over the years ) that are similar AND is known to have excellent out of box reps? Maybe a Pam 111 from DavidSen with the old rep case if he still has them is the best one to get? Thanks and hopefully I will get some suggestions from you guys. Cheers!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vootzilla Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 wow...pretty nice summary. U really did ur homework, funky!! I'd say the base dial ones would be a good start (the one without seconds hand) but again, it might not be ur style. Wait for the guy below... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siesta181 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 It all depends on what type of collector you are. you are either the buy and wear or the buy, mod to the max then wear type. The modding potential of PAMs are endless and thus my sugeestion is buy what you like. Now to your questions Now, following that same logic, would you agree that a Pam 111 should be an in-production, AND not a limited edition model that's easier to rep as close to gen out of the box? Yes the 111 is still in production. Should be easy to rep but the factories in CN can't be bothered to get it right. Or maybe there are some other models ( I just can't believe how many Pam models there are over the years ) that are similar AND is known to have excellent out of box reps? The PAM Ferrari Chrono 008 is the most accurate out of the box. Almost perfect. IMHO Maybe a Pam 111 from DavidSen with the old rep case if he still has them is the best one to get? I am not the authority here on PAM reps but I only buy parts from Davidsen. Not whole watches. Now you just need one more reply. Cheers mate siesta181 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 I agree with siesta, the Pam ferrari Is the out of the box choice If your looking for accuracy. It just might me my next Rep, then again Good luck and happy hunting Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkybuda Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 wow...pretty nice summary. U really did ur homework, funky!! I'd say the base dial ones would be a good start (the one without seconds hand) but again, it might not be ur style. Wait for the guy below... Yeah, I thought of 112 as well as it's even more basic. Of course I like a bit of variety and the fact that 111' second hand does not reside on a different sub dial makes me wanting to believe that it still has less of a chance to introduce irregularities. Again, this is all happening in a noobi's head, which doesn't know anything about the world of rep other then passing by some really plastic looking cheapos in Chinatown way back then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkybuda Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Thanks siesta and maxman!! Didn't look at the Ferrari line at all for a couple of reasons: 1. Never a big fan of Ferrari, and for some weird reason, not a huge fan of this kind of "fusion" products by two well known brands of any kind. I think this is the major reason I stayed away from this series. 2. I would have never guessed it if you two didn't tell me that the FER00008 is the closest rep out of box!! That is , if I follow that same logic of "less is better". Just seems that so many details can go wrong with that Chrono, but I will take your words for it. 3. I am also in love with the unique CG design of the Pam Luminors. Hehe, so I guess my questions should have been the same ones MINUS the entire Ferrari line:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg_r Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 It's very easy to get obsessed by small details. You mention that people will assume a 186 is a rep, but that's not true. Hardly anybody out there even knows what a Panerai is - and even fewer actually care about what you're wearing on your wrist There is no such thing as the perfect rep - all of them have their flaws. If you want the perfect Panerai, then it's time to buy a gen. However, the better reps out there are still excellent watches - my 'Ultimate' 111h is one of the best watches I've ever owned, rep or gen. Few people short of an AD or a member of one of these boards will be able to tell (or will care) whether or not it's the real thing, so yes, an 'ultimate' 111h as a good place to start - whether from Davidsen or another dealer. Here's mine: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Your not alone funky. It seems like most members perfer the traditional Pams with CG. I also purchased a 111, 250, 212 flyback. I have to admit that the flyback Is a awsome Rep as far as accuracy Is concerned. It also seems like you know a lot more than most new members, good for you Good luck and Im sure you will end up with something really nice. Mike (ps) mineral glass and synthetic sapphire are the same thing I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkybuda Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Very well said greg! And I agree almost 100%. I guess I am just trying to reassure myself and starting off on the right foot. Yeah, none of them is flawless, as beautiful as your 111h as shown in the picture, I am sure all the rest of gurus will probably jump on the distance between the 6 and "swiss made" as one of the obvious tells. Nevertheless, it's still a remarkable rep, and may I confirm that you got this from DavidSen? Thanks again man for the reply and the picture!! You guys rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkybuda Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Your not alone funky. It seems like most members perfer the traditional Pams with CG. I also purchased a 111, 250, 212 flyback. I have to admit that the flyback Is a awsome Rep as far as accuracy Is concerned. It also seems like you know a lot more than most new members, good for you Good luck and Im sure you will end up with something really nice. Mike (ps) mineral glass and synthetic sapphire are the same thing I think Oh man, I love Pam 212, but do you know any reputable place that I can get one with Sapphire Cystal w/ AR of this model? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siesta181 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Yup. I never liked the Ferrari series as well. Just not signature Panerai. My suggestion is get the PAM 001. Its a PAM 111 with a closed caseback thus reducing the visual error. Get it lumed and AR by chief and a V crownguard and you will fool 95% of the world population 99% of the time. And yes... the PAM addiction is horrible. I have a 029B, 111, 127, and 250. Welcome to a world of madness.... Cheers siesta181 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkybuda Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Hey Siesta, That 111 in your picture looks great!! Is it your own mod? If not, may I ask from which collector you got this? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Oh man, I love Pam 212, but do you know any reputable place that I can get one with Sapphire Cystal w/ AR of this model? Thanks! I really like my flyback, It's my best rep so far. Watcheden says there flyback has a sapphire crystal for $295.00. They offer a $20.00 discount but It will never go through for me, maybe you will have better luck. . good luck Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg_r Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Very well said greg! And I agree almost 100%. I guess I am just trying to reassure myself and starting off on the right foot. Yeah, none of them is flawless, as beautiful as your 111h as shown in the picture, I am sure all the rest of gurus will probably jump on the distance between the 6 and "swiss made" as one of the obvious tells. Nevertheless, it's still a remarkable rep, and may I confirm that you got this from DavidSen? Thanks again man for the reply and the picture!! You guys rock You really have been doing your research! Well done! Yes, the dial is flawed - the 'swiss made' spacing as you mention and the font used for the maker's name isn't quite there, but it's pretty close. No, this wasn't from Davidsen - it was one of Ruby's 'Ultimate' 111s - I bought it from her about a year ago. It comes down to the compromise you're willing to make - I love that watch. It's one of the best watches I've ever owned (and that includes various gens) and the minor imperfections aren't enough to bother me. You now have to decide whether they bother you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkybuda Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 "You now have to decide whether they bother you." ...see, that's a problem I didn't know I would have over a week ago when I started reading about the rep watches. I guess the saying of "ignorance is a blessing" can be true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltatahoe Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 fwiw, i'm pretty certain that a pam 212 with sapphire crystal doesn't exist. even the new "made with genuine as sample" version (which for this watch more than others i'm pretty sure is a load of crap) from josh's site (click here) says "synthetic sapphire", which we all know to be mineral crystal. although even the mineral crystal looks pretty stunning with a double AR coating (which also happens to dramatically increase its scratch resistance) hope this helps deltatahoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 fwiw, i'm pretty certain that a pam 212 with sapphire crystal doesn't exist. even the new "made with genuine as sample" version (which for this watch more than others i'm pretty sure is a load of crap) from josh's site (click here) says "synthetic sapphire", which we all know to be mineral crystal. although even the mineral crystal looks pretty stunning with a double AR coating (which also happens to dramatically increase its scratch resistance) hope this helps deltatahoe Wow thats a stunner I would have to agree about the crystal. I think all 212 reps come with the mineral. Before ording ask the dealer If they are 100% sure the crystal Is indeed saphire. Here's a little tip. I rubbed against the side of my garage while wearing my flyback. There was a scuff mark across the front of the crystal. Im sure you can imagine how I felt at the time. I had read somewere that rubbing compound can remove such marks If they were not to deep. I gave It ago and It worked beautifuly. The crystal that I thought I would have to replace Is now as good as new, just a little tip. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltatahoe Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I had read somewere that rubbing compound can remove such marks If they were not to deep. I gave It ago and It worked beautifuly. The crystal that I thought I would have to replace Is now as good as new, just a little tip. Mike could you post a description/picture of what "rubbing compound" you used (and a brief description of how you rubbed out the scratch)? thanks in advance deltatahoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkybuda Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 WatchEden claims they sell a sapphire one here: http://www.watcheden.com/panerai-pam-212-f...-16267-p-1.html I haven't emailed him to confirm whether it's a genuine or synthetic version. But really, we pretty much have to take their words for it right as there is no way of knowing just from the pictures? And yes, I will be interested in what those "rubbing compound" is, just in case in the future. Also, I've finally heard back from DSN but didn't know his price on the 111h is that high. His price on 88 is actually over 100 cheaper then the "best version" from Josh , but again, he doesn't seem to want to send any pictures before shipping. Is this the norm when you deal with a collector through emails? Please let me know if there is any common etiquette when discussing dealer experience in public here. Like in terms of pricing and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkay Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) says "synthetic sapphire", which we all know to be mineral crystal. If I can just say something here ... sapphire watch crystals are not dug up out of the ground, nor are there huge, perfect chunks of mined sapphire which are polished into watch crystals. Pure, clear MAN MADE sapphire is laboratory grown in lengths, in rod form up to 400mm in width, and cut to the required thickness. Watch crystals are not mined. Sapphire watch crystals are synthetic sapphire. They are desirable due to their hardness .. 9x harder than glass. Edited June 24, 2009 by Jkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltatahoe Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 If I can just say something here ... sapphire watch crystals are not dug up out of the ground, nor are there huge, perfect chunks of mined sapphire which are polished into watch crystals. i apologize for assuming people had some inkling of common sense my point was that in our dealer vernacular, synthetic sapphire = mineral crystal. i did hear that chuck norris has genuine mined sapphire in all his watches though deltatahoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Hey guys i just returned home from the dentest. Im going to check on the rubbing conpound and see If I can find that article Be back soon (ps) @ Deltatahoe Would you mind telling us where you got the strap for your 212. That thing looks amazing on your Pam, thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I used Maguires scrach x or you could use Maguires plas x. These two products are very mild, you dont want to use anything to strong. If you do use another product make sure It says " safe for all paints" It sure worked well for me. Sorry I could not find the orignal article. Mike (ps) @ Funkybuda, It looks like you got more then one reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted July 26, 2009 Report Share Posted July 26, 2009 It's very easy to get obsessed by small details. You mention that people will assume a 186 is a rep, but that's not true. Hardly anybody out there even knows what a Panerai is - and even fewer actually care about what you're wearing on your wrist I have to agree with you 100% Greg. This has also been my experence. Most people really dont give a about watches. The thing that really depresses me Is seeing people using there cell phones to tell them the time of day, pathetic Mike There is no such thing as the perfect rep - all of them have their flaws. If you want the perfect Panerai, then it's time to buy a gen. However, the better reps out there are still excellent watches - my 'Ultimate' 111h is one of the best watches I've ever owned, rep or gen. Few people short of an AD or a member of one of these boards will be able to tell (or will care) whether or not it's the real thing, so yes, an 'ultimate' 111h as a good place to start - whether from Davidsen or another dealer. Here's mine: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted July 26, 2009 Report Share Posted July 26, 2009 It's very easy to get obsessed by small details. You mention that people will assume a 186 is a rep, but that's not true. Hardly anybody out there even knows what a Panerai is - and even fewer actually care about what you're wearing on your wrist There is no such thing as the perfect rep - all of them have their flaws. If you want the perfect Panerai, then it's time to buy a gen. However, the better reps out there are still excellent watches - my 'Ultimate' 111h is one of the best watches I've ever owned, rep or gen. Few people short of an AD or a member of one of these boards will be able to tell (or will care) whether or not it's the real thing, so yes, an 'ultimate' 111h as a good place to start - whether from Davidsen or another dealer. Here's mine: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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