robj

Yes there are a load of 21j Chinese movements and the quality varies from rubbish to very good right now the dg2813 and 4813 seem to be an excellent alternative to the ETA or ETA clone

yes I agree they picked Gaungdong as an example it's only the members have put 2 and 2 together and made 5. I would think that very few if any rep factories actually makes the complete thing all use bought parts and assemble. I am in Gaungdong 2 or 3 times a month and I don't see the level of poverty that I see in Mumbai/Phnom Phen for example.

Usually what happens when something like this is highlighted is nothing! Every time the west get involved they tend to make the people who they are helping worst off. In almost all situations the people who are voicing an opinion are basing it on their moral values and are ignorant to the cultural norms of the society they are talking about. In India / China and in general the Asian world over population and economic situations allow this to go on it has been that way for a 1000 years long before America and Europe decided that their way of life was the only correct way. In many situations just closing the factories will not benefit anyone. On the contrary in situations like this it has been shown that the people in this situation have to turn to prostitution etc to live when there is no factory work to be had. The problem is far more wide spread than a few copy watches almost 90% of what consumers buy in the west is Asian in some part or another. I agree the Walmarts and Tesco's of this world do make a token effort to control this sort of thing but it's only smoke and mirrors occasionally they will stop buying from a supplier because of this sort of thing but don't be mislead this is nothing to do with the morals of it only to do with public opinion and promotion. If one is going to do anything about it it has to be a blanket effect boycott all Asian goods until they are proven to be made using only willing labour that is in a union,that is how impossible the situation is. Gz is the the center of watches in China but 90% of the factories are in remote locations not all in GZ in fact it is more likely the watches you are buying are only brought to GZ to sell. Because it's an illegal business they tend to steer clear of the highly industrialized areas and choose remote locations. The shoes/shirts you are wearing are more likely to be linked with child labour and slavery than copy watches . I am not saying for one moment that this is correct in the 21st century and I would like to see it as would anyone stopped but I think that one has to be realistic and realize that it's not going to happen at our level and only governments can cure the problem. Right now with the worlds economy is in such economic decline I don't see anyone making a stand about this. Copy items are an easy target to use as a vehicle of effect in journalism they would have you beleive that all copy goods sold are to promote organized crime/ Drug dealing and now lately the fashionable link is with terrorism! So why stop at child labour we are funding terrorism as well but thats ok because all the money we pay for oil is only being spent on humanitarian projects and the world governments have checked, none is used for any immoral or illegal activity it's only the money from copy copy items that is used for anything that is not legal

You forgot to add in your opinion! Everyone has crystal without AR why do you need to pay DSN premium prices? The ones I talk about are single AR coated and very original like

The major give away is the California above the 12 although I have read somewhere this can be removed without much difficulty if thats so then I would go for one it's such a rare watch that only egg heads would know it was a fake

You say that up until recently but I saw a railmaster Omega a couple of years ago with a fake 2836-2 movement and it was selling for $100 it had 2836-2 on base plate. Rolex are the ones that really need looking at there is 2 grades available right now both are described as swiss 1 is with copy ETA and the other with what is said to be original ETA movement they look identical! I have a feeling that this is going to be like the gold rush in the late 80's where people were breaking watches for the gold content even Rolex etc a huge amount of people decided to break their heirloom pocket watches to cash in and found that they were in fact pinchbeck and not gold at all even though they had for 50 years thought they were. It is only in recent times that the origins of the ETA movement has been challenged maybe it's been going on longer than we think!

I have never believed this swiss thing! Why would they copy every other detail and put an original movement costing 5 times more than the Chinese equivalent? I think what they have is a better finished Chinese movement. As a matter of interest I beleive the 2813/4813 is far more accurate and reliable and of late there have been some prettied up versions of it so paying for ETA is now almost a waste of money. Logically with the stamp on it should be original but you have to remember it says Rolex/Panerai Omega on the dial do you accept that as the truth?

These are really nice quality for the price it's a pity there is no PR indicator but I think there will be soon I see copies of PAM 235 about with a scroll indicator albeit faux . They make a great item to re case a 127 seems to be better finished than the normal 127 with less dial distortion I may well try it tomorrow!

there is standard sapphire single Ar around I bough 2 the other day they were about $80 each

Well "TJ" you have much stronger feelings about this than I! Particularly about the waterproofing thing etc, I would agree that people are generally mislead into thinking they are the only safe alternative but that is not their fault that is fueled by members and the fact they are trusted sellers. Ok some members will agree with everything as they think they need to ingratiate themselves in the hope of special deals etc. In anything like these forums you will always get people selective reading you only have to see the repetitive questions for that and if enough people keep saying this is the best way then they believe it. That said the majority of members are happy with sellers on here or at least don't say otherwise so what are people to think. The admin have vetted these vendors so from the point of view of the general population they don't need to do anything else, you have to remember that 90% of people need spoon feeding and it would seem from what I read are incapable of making a decision without full board approval even down to buying a band for their watch. This is life ! You will always get the people that choose to follow the crowd and have a quiet life and those that will search for something out of the the norm. What I personally think is that Admin should take a deposit from these vendors of say $5000/$10000 then they could offer the protection members think they can offer. Recently in my opinion there has been a lot of trusted sellers not playing the game or simply not performing if these people had $5000 at risk they would perform I promise you and in the event of total failing, Admin could do more than put pressure on them with emails/Phone calls etc as this would seem to be not enough to get them to perform of course Admin can ban or suspend them but I see that as an admission of defeat as no further sanctions are possible after that. and people are still in the same boat either waiting or accepting the fact that they are not getting it. I myself beleive that a certain level of security is afforded members by the system but I don't think it's only from Admin in particular but by members postings and reviews .

I am neither justifying or defending anyone! I am just making a point that the cartel thing is all hype and in reality they have no more pull with the factories than the man on the moon! price fixing lies etc are an altogether different thing and something I have not made and have no comment on. I only used Josh as an example to outline just how small a fish they are in the big sea but did fell a need to qualify my statement about wrong watches being sent. If they have the item and buyers want it what is the crime in getting as much as they can for it? They are not a philanthropic concern but a commercial enterprise. It's not like they are selling life saving drugs and holding sick people to ransom they are selling fake watches that the buyer has the choice to buy or not. Free enterprise has to work for everyone if the other sellers can't source the watch then they can't sell it if they can source the watch and want to reduce their profit then they are also free to do that, by the same token if the cartel as you choose to call them have an item that is not for sale with another seller they must be allowed to set the price as they wish. The option is still with the buyer to buy or not regardless of price or who has it for sale.

Well let me try to clarify it for you. What they actually asked the the policeman was do you think this is a significant seizer. To which he replied we believe this to be only a small operation and distribution center for the bigger factory manufacturing these fake watches. Now that is not verbatim but pretty close to what was said.

Yes but what difference does that make? the Asian with 21 jewel asian have the same dial configuration

I really think this Cartel thing is overplayed! If you ever go to GZ as I am sure OP will tell you and see how many watch dealers and watches there are you would realize it would be almost impossible for 1/2 or 10 dealers to have any influence with the factories and any say in design. Everything the likes of Josh or Andrew have for sale is available else where. I would imagine Josh and Andrew do no more than work for a Chinese wholesaler and may well have exclusivity with him but as far as factories go etc I doubt very much they know even where they are! This is a huge business and the amount of watches produced every month runs into millions if Josh and Andrew were selling 500 watches each a week it would make little or no difference to the bigger picture. I saw a thing on TV the other day while I was in Hong Kong they busted a factory making Hublot they showed pictures of the stock room there must have been 10000 there and it went on to say they were only intermediaries so Goodness knows how many they would have found if the factory had been raided. So if you think beyond the hype and the "We have bought a genuine to copy" of Josh and Andrew etc you would realize that they account for a very very small % of the sales from a factory. I also believe that they hold little or no stock and dropship in the main. I have dealt with Josh a lot to be honest and can only say good things about him but I have had my share of wrong watches sent etc I would add that on every occasion there has been a mistake it has been sorted out immediately and without any drama. My point was that if they were not dropshipping and had the right item physically in stock this would be less likely to happen

I'd love to hear about all the non-complicated reps that use 7750, 'cause that's news to me. panerai 104/88/89/ 229 all the submursibles there are loads with no complication or a GMT function that could use 2813/4813/2824/2836 but use 7750

Could be for the date maybe a 4813 or indeed ETA 2824/36 would need the date wrongly positioned. can't think of any other reason to use the 7750 it's not as if it's the greatest movement on earth!

Watchmark I am fed up of hearing that "He is new and learning" He is not new! He has to my knowledge been doing this for 2 years He is the same person as Seikomark/Markzhie on ioffer and all the other auction boards only difference is he says he is based in SG on these boards. Incidentally his account seikomark was suspended by ioffer I don't know why could be any number of reasons not only for complaints from customers. So please stop making excuses he is new and learning

Why are you taking the bezel off? just unscrew the back locate and remove the movement retaining holders and slacken the winder stem it will come straight out. The best tool to remove the backs on any of the Panerai is a sticky ball about $10 and no chance of marking the case. Removing the movement will take no more than 10 minutes. If you remove the bezel you will need a special die to replace it the normal bezel press dies are too shallow and you will crack the glass guaranteed!

I have tried to buy from DHgate loads of time but in the end the seller changes the story before I have actually paid there was one last week "Daylight Chrono ETA 7753" the picture was of 7753 watch When I asked if chrono functioned as stopwatch I was told no on this model the movement was Japanese and the 7753 only referred to the stock number!

What was the significance of going to the post office at the same time? The fact you were doing it contemporaneously offered no security other than you were getting a package! God knows what would have been in the package.This sounds like a classic sting by telling you he was told it was too cheap you didn't think for a moment it could be a fake or worse still didn't exist. Better left alone I would think in any event and count yourself lucky the guy got greedy

These are around saw one on ioffer a couple of weeks ago think it was $750 seller had loads of feedback as well.

This can happen from time to time what if 4-5 people had ordered it though chances are they would have to wait. It's impossible for a dealer anywhere other than Asia to have ready stock available in any great quantity. Apart from the enormous financial investment there is also the fact that they are illegal!

1 they don't have the selection available to them this is also true of EU dealers 2 they invariably have to order items from China and this is time consuming the only befit is that they see the watch before you get it 3 they are generally more expensive than the Asian dealers having taken the risk of customs and qc'd the watch but if you are willing to pay the premium for them taking the risk they are a good choice

If it's not ready why use it it's only causing you and the buyers problems.