automatico

"He hasnt replied a single email for weeks. DW/Steve owes a lot of people watches and parts."

I sent DW a note in December about a V72 case and got a quick reply but I chickened out after reading about them closing up.

Sad to say but "family/medical/emergency problems" on internet deals usually means the $$ went down a gopher hole.

It sure would be nice if someone in the USA would crank out precision made cases for a fair price. Without trademarks it is probably 100% legal.

But then we would need a 'trademark guy'.

For example, I saw that Star Time has unsigned '16610' type steel cases that accept genuine dials and 3135 mvt for $175 (without bezels) so they could not be that hard or expensive to make.

(Product No.RSCSS (3135) Stainless Steel Replacement Case for Rolex Sub Type 3135)

The crystal retainer ring is $39 and the rotating bezel is $69.95. Total for a basic case = $283.95.

Special parts like the Hub Evo screw may have to come from a donor watch. I have a black Hublot BB that I parked after a couple screws fell out (do not remember which ones), but if you want the empty case, send a mailing address by pm and I will shoot it at you.

I side with JMB and stick to rolex replicas because they are relatively easy to find parts for.

Loctite is good too.

What really makes me mad is the way genuine swiss watch brands are holding back parts and forcing watch owners to send watches to factory authorized repair depots for their Super Friendly $crew You $ervice. There is no way I will pay some sob watch company $1000 to fix what I can fix for $100 just because they will not sell me the parts.

Another sign of the times...thanks to the Geniuses in Charge of rwc, every genuine rolex I have left (except for a 1675) is probably worth more for parts than as a running watch.

Charter Member of the Frankens Forever Club.

I used a 2846 (17J) with a 2824 autowind assembly (to make it 25J) in a 1016 project with a 16220 case. The sweep second pinion needed to be shortened a little bit so the second hand would not sit too high above the M hand. The H and M hands were Ok with the H hand about the right distance above the dial.

I used a spacer from Stilty and everything fit fine and I cut a couple flat spots in the spacer so the case clamps would fit into the groove in the case.

I left the 5.3mm case tube in the case along with the original 6mm crown and used a GS PA 464-64C crystal with a bezel cut to fit. The lug holes were drilled out with a #55 bit and a 7836 folded oyster bracelet from Mary was fitted.

The bracelet worked fine but I put an older type clasp cap on it with the coronet at the leading edge (where the lift tab normally is) and I bent the center of the last link when I was flexing the bracelet back and forth trying to make it a little bit looser where the clasp cap snaps down between the clasp and first link.

It is fairly easy to put a dent in a center link of one of these bracelets, genuine or replica.

Follow up...

I spread the center of the last link apart on my cartel bracelet to see if I could install a connecting link and short center link like in the Yuki bracelet (my cartel bracelet is just like the one in the pictures above). The center link that I pried apart is the goofy looking hooded link that connects to the clasp with a press pin.

There is a pin at each end of the folded link but none in the center for a short center link like the Yuki model so there is no easy way to install a short link in the center of the cartel bracelet. An oem type connecting link can be installed but you would end up with the last link with a space in the center that would look real bad...like a boxer with two front teeth knocked out.

I put the center link back in the bracelet but spread it apart a little so there would be a little more room between the clasp cap and the bracelet link. This helps a little but not much. I thought about trying to drill a shallow hole in the inside center of the last link and trying to fit a pin (small springbar?) and short center link but decided not to try it.

So...it looks like this type of bracelet works best with a regular clasp.

On the good side...

The cartel bracelet has a much better set of connecting links at the end of the bracelet where it connects to the springbars.

"What size do we get? 20mmX1.5?"

Measure the od of the rivet tube and get one the same od and about 22mm long and grind it to fit...get 3 just to be on the safe side. Use the old rivet tube for a sample but still cut the new tube a hair longer, you can always grind it shorter it if needed. I use a 75mm x 25mm diamond type knife sharpener to trim tubes down a little at a time after rough cutting them with a cut-off disc in a Dremel tool.

If the rivet tube is cut too short/tight, the flip lock 'flipper' binds and will not flip...sometimes it binds against the clasp cap rivet head where it connects to the 'Z' blade. If no rivet at this location, the flipper may bind against spacer tabs made on the clasp blade or the clasp cap itself. Too loose and it slides to one side.

The 'flipper' pictured has cutouts for a rivet so if it has spacers you will also need a pair of matching spacers if one is missing. When there are no spacers, the 'flipper' usually butts against a tab made on the clasp blade. The 'flipper' may have to be drilled out to fit the new rivet tube, some do, some don't.

Install a rivet in one side of the rivet tube, install spacers (when used), then fit the tube to the clasp leaving just enough play so it will not bind. Press the other rivet in only after you are sure the rivet tube is the correct length.

It is better to press the rivet in the tube than to drive it in. Driving the rivets in will sometimes flatten the rivet head and can bend the rivet tube or cause it to swell. I use 'RoboGrip' parallel jaw pliers with the teeth removed...or you can pad the jaws with tape.

It is sad to see that a 'pro' watch/parts seller can not tell the difference.

Judging from the price, he sure is proud of it too.

FYI some prices...

I looked around and found some receipts where I bought three of these clasps a few years back (receipt was not dated), two marked for 18k/ss and one for steel...the AD charged me $51 each otd and I thought that was too much at the time.

Another receipt showed I paid $3865 otd for two new steel Zenith Daytonas in 1992. One in 1996 and one in 1997 cost me $5120 each from the same AD otd. Last one in 1998 was $5120 otd.

Paid $3315 for a 'like new' tutone 16523 Zenith Daytona w/bp in 1999...tutones were doa compared to steel. They still are. Paid $990 otd for a new leftover 5500 AK in 1994, $900 for 6694 otd.

'otd' = out the door

In 1997, new steel 5.3 and 6.0 crowns cost me $20, new gold 5.3 and 6.0 crowns were $35. New steel 7.0 were $35, gold $75.

Tropics $15.50, cyclops $17.50.

Balance complete w/hs $160.

Reverser $25.

set of 3 hands $23

set of 4 hands $ 30.50

Imho, it's all about pecking order...

Patek and A Lange owners look down on AP, Breguet and VC.

AP, Breguet, and VC owners look down on JLC, cartier, and rolex.

JLC and rolex owners look down on TAG/Heuer and omega.

...while snooty cartier owners look down on Maurice Lacroix and Raymond Weil.

TAG/H and omega owners look down on Seiko and Citizen (just a guess, who knows?).

...while Maurice L and Raymond W owners look down on Movado.

Movado owners look down on...well that's a hard one, Breguet maybe? After all, now it's just a $watch.

Seiko and Citizen owners look down on Fossil and Armitron.

Fossil and Armatron owners look down on...? Two dollar yard sale watches maybe?

Yard sale watch owners look own on...?

Got it! Down on the ground for a free! watch.

I remember when Seiko brought the snotty swiss brands to their knees in about 6 months with the Seiko Astron and what soon followed. Almost all of the swiss brands would be gone today if they had not decided to reinvent their obsolete, fragile, maintenence intensive mechanical malfunctions as 'handmade heirlooms', 'mechanical masterpieces' etc to a gullible, upwardly mobile clientele.

Out of all the names above, I probably have the most respect today for Timex, Seiko, and Citizen because they still offer fairly priced, no BS products and Seiko and Citizen sell parts.

No parts needed for Timex. Here's the fix...

I wore mechanical watches when that was all there was (except for A-trons and Ham Elecs) so I sorta have a soft spot for mechanical watches.

Now I usually wear a quartz watch. Today it's a steel Citizen RR Special.

"Rep case is way too thick to even look gen like. Its about 4 -5 mm thicker IIRC."

I used eta cases from 'Abay' 7 or 8 years ago and they were pretty close, a little thick maybe but not much with a genuine spec gasket and crystal. I have a few ST6D lady DJ cases that look like little double bacon cheeseburgers though.

I finally found the leftover tutone lady DJ projects from back then and the swisseta 2671 case is a hair over 10mm thick with the crystal that came in it while the ST6D lady DJ case is 12.2mm thick.

The swisseta case is threaded for a standard 5.3mm case tube (2.5mm x .25mm).

A new heavy center link SS/14k lady jubilee (made in Italy) is now $535 from where I got mine. Back when I bought the last one they were about $275. I paid $90 for the 'like new' (dealer take off) 18k lady DJ bezel...21.4mm id.

A gents SS/14K 20mm jubilee heavy center link bracelet is now $915! I paid less than half that much back when I was working on this stuff.

I put a few of these together and knowing what I know now, I would advise you to consider a ready-to-go steel replica with a swiss eta 2671 in it.

Why?

1...Because it avoids all the hassle of fitting an eta into a genuine case and if you use a genuine dial on an eta in a genuine case, you will have to stick the dial on the 2671 with glue etc, find hands, movement spacer, case clamps etc.

2...Sad but true but it probably does not really matter if the case/dial is genuine or not mainly because no one can tell much difference anyway on a small watch.

3...The lady model watch is so small that common 'replica defects' like the date window/magnifier being off .5mm from genuine etc is usually not that important. If the magnifier is centered over the date properly, all is well. Another thing is that on a small lady size dial, the printing is not bold enough to show flaws in the application like on a full size watch.

4...The big catch today is to really get a 'swiss' eta for your $$ and not a sorry clone of some sort.

I would look for a good case,dial, and bracelet combo and go from there. When the watch arrives, it is always a good idea to replace the springbars with high quality stainless steel springbars, check the caseback gasket, and put Loctite on the bracelet screws before turning it loose. If you are inclined, it is also a good idea to remove the hands and dial so you can cement the markers to the dial so they will not fall off. It is embarassing when markers fall off a 'gift watch'.

I almost forgot Gift Watch Rule #1...

Most women do not really like automatic watches.

A quartz cartier is usually a good bet.

I have three genuine TAG Heuer quartz (Eta 955.xxx) watches...one WK1120, one WK1111, and one WK1112. The WK1120 was made in 1998, the other two in the early to mid 2000's. I have $60 in the 1120, $150 in the 1111, and $200 in the 1112. The 1112 was nib when I got it, the 1111 was slightly used, and the 1120 was about 90% and had a short bracelet.

I wear the WK1120 when I need a watch I can count on...no 'mechjunk' that may or may not be running when I need it.

mechjunk = any mechanical watch, genuine or replica

Hundreds of quartz watches will work just as good or better than a TAG Heuer 1120, 1111, 1112. I just like them and got good deals in them.

I know G Shock etc are more rugged. I just can not get used to wearing a plastic watch that looks like it fell out of an alien's azz on liftoff.

My favorite 'mechjunk' watches...gold cased USA made Elgin and Hamilton. Too fragile (for me) to wear though.

"I have a proper bezel removal tool and it still messed up two noobmariner bezels."

The trick is not to use a bezel remover of any sort. Noob bezels are held on the case by a spring wire and there is simply not enough room between the bezel and case for the spring wire to pass by when prying the bezel off.

On F520117 'noob' cases you can remove the bezel (if you feel like taking a chance) by:

1...Remove the movement.

2...Remove the crystal and gasket.

3...Remove the bezel insert by prying it out a little at a time being careful not to bend it

4...Insert a 50mm+/- long by .005 to .007 thick strip of feeler gauge between the bezel spring and bezel using a high power magnifier and bright light to see what is going on between the bezel and case as you slip the gauge strip between the two. There is not much room so make sure to get the strip pushed in far enough so that the bezel spring is pushed out against the bezel about half the way around the bezel.

5...Gently pry the bezel up mid way between the strip with your fingers or a blade while pushing all the slack to the side with the gauge strip in it.

If the bezel does not come off easily, it will bend or chip the case.

No guarantee that this will work the first time but this is one way to do it.

The feeler gauge will cut fingers like a knife. The 50mm length is an estimate but it needs to go about half way around the bezel.

As always...practice on someone else's watch.

Can I look myself in the mirror when I am wearing a genuine watch?

Yes...but I feel like I've been screwed.

Can I look myself in the mirror when I am wearing a replica watch?

Yes...but I close one eye.

"The U shaped spring under the keyless works cover can travel several yards in any direction at near the speed of light. I used a piece of tape to hold it when reinstalling. That tamed the beast a bit."

I have lost parts to these things that I will never see again.

If this is the U shaped spring that puts tension on the calendar index pawl located under the 'key hole' shaped slot in the cover plate over the calendar works etc...it goes in through the slot after the plate is installed.

During disassembly...after removing the cover plate, take the U spring out first thing before it goes into orbit and note if one side of the spring is longer than the other.

"...I wouldn't hate on the DG3804B movement. It's really not 'cheap', but instead inexpensive. It is as accurate and dependable as the converted ETA 2836-2 we get, 'Swiss' or Asian. The DG3804B has two advantages over the Swiss/Asian ETA. It is designed to be a genuine GMT movement from the ground up, not a conversion. In 3 - 5 years when a service is needed you just buy a new DG for $25usd versus an ETA service for at least $75usd from a very friendly watchmaker. To get a genuine ETA GMT designed from the ground up, the ETA 2893-2, you'll need to spend over $250usd with no real clear advantage in accuracy or durability."

I agee.

From what I have seen, DG3804B are pretty good movements and with 21600 bph, they are good for vintage gmt/expII projects. I have said before that I do not like to work on DG/NN Miyota clone movements but if they are clean and properly oiled, they will run for years. I think most of the trouble experienced with these movements is caused by being dirty and/or dry.

I did not have much trouble with the older DG models that had a non-adjustable 24 hour hand either. I still have a couple from an internet dealer who called himself 'Cal' about 10 years back and they still run fine too. 'Cal' had a guy named 'Benny' in the USA and you sent the $$ to 'Benny' and in a few weeks the watch would arrive from China.

Iirc, Sub, GMT and ExII were $100 and DJ were $55. All the DJ had Seagull ST16 movements signed 'Pusan Co. Korea...18 Jewels'.

!!!

You would think he could put a little $$ in with it to make up for the shortage.

If this don't beat all:

"Dear automatico,

Unfortunately your registration at RepGeek.com did not meet our membership requirements.

Therefore your registration was deleted.

Sorry,

RepGeek.com"

...maybe I just ain't low class enough.

"Would You Buy a Gen?"

rolex...

'Unworn' from gray market...maybe, but only if I had it pre sold for a profit.

Used rolex to use for parts to fix another watch...yes if the price was right.

Used for resale...yes, if it was cheap enough.

New from AD...never.

Other brands with 'inhouse' movements...

Not unless they sell parts. Your $2000 'bargain' can soon go DOA with no parts or into a $3000 watch after 'factory' service.

Who sells common parts? (crystals, crowns, movement parts)

I can think of three...

Citizen

Seiko

Omega, but getting worse by the day.

I am sure there are others and there are always a few gray market parts available. TAG and rolex crowns and case tubes for example.

Try to find a new 'fish crown' for an IWC or a gold crown for a Patek.

"Is it possible to reattach the dial feet on a genuine dial without damaging the dial front (I guess they would have to be soldered in place again) in the process?"

Someone with a laser jewelry welder might be able to do it but they would need to practice on an old dial first.

I had a 14k watch case with the insides of the lugs worn where someone used a Speidel Twist-O-Flex bracelet and a friend laser welded/filled the lugs back to original condition with the plastic crystal still in the case. It did not even melt the crystal cement.

The guy is not just average though, he is a real pro.

I had a dial foot soldering machine years ago and it was basically a small AC powered DC transformer that you connected to the dial and dial foot using a tiny piece of solder to join them together. In theory it would heat the immediate area quickly and the solder would melt and join the two parts together without burning the dial paint.

You ground the dial with one wire from the machine and clamp the dial foot in a flexible holder (with an 'alligator' clip on the end) and put the dial foot in contact with the dial. You push the button to turn the machine on and it was supposed to solder the parts together in a second or two. I never had much luck with it.

Shor International Corp in Madison NJ has a top of the line model on their website.

Soft solder melts around 1100 degrees F.

Hard solder melts between 1100 and 1600 degrees F.

There is also 'TIX' brand soft solder that melts at 275 degrees F. Their motto is 'The hardest soft solder in the world' (4300 psi). I never tried it on a dial foot.

I have a cartel bracelet like in the pictures and had plans to put a fliplock clasp on it but it would be a lot of hassle because of the goofy one piece link on the end of the bracelet. It also looks like the 8.9mm center link on the hinge end of the cartel bracelet may be a little short making it too close to the outer links to accept a fliplock clasp cap with the two 'claws' that come down between the outer links and clasp blade where the hinge rivet is located.

Cartel bracelets are good for regular watches without fliplocks (older 1016, DJ, 1675 etc) and will take 2mm springbars if you spread the end links out a little bit.

Cartel bracelets will also work with many different hoods where the Yuki model will not but the Yuki bracelet will adapt to a fliplock clasp easily.

When you wear a mechanical watch...you also need a quartz watch to tell what time it really is.

"In most cases, cases are sold because the movement was parted out for use in a franken."

True.

Some movements are used for parts or replacement in a higher value genuine rolex.

I have purchased quite a few cases in the past 20+ years and they ranged from nos to junk and the biggest problem in vintage cases seems to be case corrosion.

Look between the lugs and on the back side of the case for black pits or specks that will not scratch off with a stiff brush or toothpick...this is a sign of light to heavy corrosion and it can be bad enough to eat all the way through the case but still not appear to be very bad on the outside.

Check the case and caseback where the gasket seals them together and look closely for corrosion and check gasket grooves closely for pits. This can kill a case and the trouble is that it does not show from the outside.

If possible, remove the bezel and crystal and look closely at the top of the case where it was covered by the bezel. There can be some heavy corrosion hiding under a bezel. Look for nicks on the case neck where the crystal or crystal gasket mounts, usually caused by careless bezel removal. A significant nick here can cause a leak that can not be easily fixed.

Lay the case on a level surface and see how much it rocks on the lugs. A little bit is Ok but a lot is not. Had a 16014 that was bent about 4mm on one lug. It was bad enough that the case was bent so much that the caseback seized on the case...junk!

Look for thin lugs from damage repair or careless polishing. Had an acrylic quick set GMT 16750 that looked like it had a peg leg on the 5 o'clock side.

Look for worn or out of round springbar holes in the lugs.

Check damage to cases between the lugs caused by loose fitting hoods. There is not much that can be done about this but if the reference and serial numbers are gone, the case is not worth as much.

Measure between the lugs and make sure the lugs are not bent. I had a genuine 6538 that was 19mm on one end and 20mm on the other. It had lived a hard life.

Make sure the caseback and case threads are good. If possible, wash the case and caseback in hot soapy water, dry it, and see if the caseback screws on and off easily and evenly without gaskets. If it chatters or binds, lube it lightly with silicon etc and try again. If it still chatters or binds, look closely for thread damage or bent case/caseback.

On sporty cases...see if the crown guards are even and pretty close to the right size.

etc, etc...

There is a LOT of junk out there and watch shows, eBay etc are dumping grounds for ratty cases that look good on the outside. Be suspicious at watch shows, trade shows etc if the caseback is screwed down real tight on an empty case so you can not examine it.

I bought a 1603 from a seller in HK and it looked 90% on the outside but was rotted out inside around the gasket area...it is now residing in my trophy case of lost causes. Got a 16220 that was the same way but got a refund. I've seen a whole lot of 16000 type cases that were rotted out. Never saw a rotted out 1550 or 15505 case but I am sure they are out there.

Seen a lot of rotted out submariners, some of them not that old.

Stainless? Maybe.

Corrosion resistant? Sorta.

Rot out proof? No.

I bought an aft/mkt rotating bezel for a genuine 1675 from Star Time Supply a couple years ago and the genuine bezel insert snapped in and the bezel fit the case fine. No way to know if today's STS bezels are exactly the same or not though.

Description:

Fits rolex GMT with acrylic crystal. No ratchet teeth. 36.02mm bottom side, 37.59mm top side. Bezel includes an insert. Iirc it fits 1675 and quick set acrylic GMT.

part number RGBSS

about $70

The big catch for vintage sub/gmt is finding an aft/mkt (affordable!) genspec crystal retaining ring. Someone needs to gear up and make a hundred. They would sell in a flash for around $25 or $30 each.

I can make them but I'm way too slow...like a tomcat eating a tow chain.

I do not know why the 'masked bubblegummer' showed up on the post but the numbers are 24-600-8 and 24-603-8.

Maybe it's double secret encoded info known only to rwc.

All 1600 etc and 16000 etc steel cases use a standard 6.0mm case tube, either the early type that had to be broached after installation (24-6000) or the modern type that does not have to be broached (24-6020).

Go with the modern type.

1600 etc and 16000 etc steel cases use a standard 6.0mm crown, p/n 24-600-0 for steel (yg 24-600-

16200 etc steel cases use modern no broach 5.3mm case tubes p/n 24-5320

16200 etc steel cases use a 6.0mm crown that fits on a 5.3mm case tube p/n 24-603-0 for steel (yg 24-603-

Iirc, it's from memory.

"That's my DW 1680. High moded to accept Gen Crystal. , Lugholes for Gen springbars. And a lot of Domenico's work."

Good looking watch!

They are well made and if a genspec crystal was a direct fit, it would make things a whole lot easier.