automatico

"Thats a very very nice watch.. just depressing to see that going to be gut out for a franken..."

I agree 100%.

A vintage Longines with a V72 is a classic.

A Franken Daytona with a V72 is not.

Maybe find a lower class donor watch. I found a ratty Wakmann with a V72 for my 'someday soon, maybe never' Daytona project.

Here are the sizes of the screw needed:

screw head diameter 1.4mm (a fraction less will work)

screw head thickness .35mm

overall length 1.7mm

screw thread diameter .78mm

If you can not find a replacement, I can send one.

If you find one, run it in carefully to make sure the threads match. It is a common thread for screws this size.

"It seems one of the movement screws is too big."

"Does anybody know where to get a replacement?"

I will see what size screw it is. If I have one, I can send it to you...if not, I will send you the specs of the screw and maybe you can find one.

Give me a day or two.

"Haha come and live in Australia, touch wood we don't have jack-offs stopping rep/counterfeit items like that. Customs is far too concerned with drugs and plants to worry about reps."

I think US Customs is much like Aus Customs when it comes to replica watches...they snag a replica now and then to keep the swiss brand importers off their backs but in reality, I doubt they care.

French Customs...while 3 customs agents are hassling a tourist about his watch, is anyone 'watching' for the guy with a grenade under his hat?

The USA is far worse...while 5 TSA agents are body searching a 70 year old grandmother and turning her 10 month old grandson upside down and shaking him like a dustrag...10 shifty eyed potential terrorists walk by without a glance from TSA agents in order to be PC.

Absurdity is the basic rule of all governments.

"I've learned more with reps than I ever would have with gens..."

Me too...mostly about the DG 2813 and Seagull ST6 though.

Seriously, I learned on genuine watches but it seems to me that replicas are harder to work on.

If you can successfully work on higher grade replicas...you can fix just about anything. Take The Zigmeister for instance.

The knowledge base of RWG is probably 10x what the TZ, VRF, WUS etc knowledge base is.

It also seems like RWG newbys wise up quickly (if they are serious) while TZ, VRF, WUS etc newbys catch on slowly because the member base can not (or will not) answer their questions.

1. "I have searched everywhere looking for a tutorial on how to change to case tube. can someone direct me to one?"

There should be a thread about this on RWG if you search it out. If not, go to google etc and look for 'changing a rolex case tube'.

Some watches will have a 5.3mm case tube with a 6.0mm crown like modern genuine rolex watches. Others will have a regular 6.0mm case tube and regular 6.0mm crown like older models.

Threads in the case for a 5.3mm case tube = 2.5mm X .25mm

Threads in the case for a regular 6.0mm tube = 3.0mm X .35mm.

The outside diameter on a 6.0mm case tube where it screws into the crown is about 4.4mm.

The od on a 5.3mm case tube where it screws into the crown is about 4.0mm.

You must have special taps for the case...they are not easy to find and expen$ive compared to regular taps. Drill bit sizes needed to bore the case before threading are available on the internet. Look for 'drill bit size to tap size' etc.

Most of the time the original threads in the case are Ok after removing the case tube.

There are two types of case tubes other than the sizes...OLD and NEW style.

OLD = the inside diameter has to be broached to fit the crown post after installation.

NEW = no broaching.

Always specify NEW style unless you have broaches etc.

Tools are available to install old or new type case tubes but you can usually get by without them.

Note:

If you ever need to bore and thread a case for a 6.0mm tube that originally came with a 5.3mm tube...make sure there is enough metal under the gasket groove in the case to allow for the larger case tube. Sometimes going to a regular 6.0mm case tube from a 5.3mm tube will cut through the case into the gasket groove.

2. "Is the crown 6mm?"

Yes, 6.0mm is the outside diameter.

3. What size tap do I need? This will probably be answered in a tutorial.

Tap sizes are listed above. A 7.0mm modern submariner case tube has the same case tube threads as a regular 6.0mm case tube.

4. "Is there a crystal I can install to rid it of the etched coronet?"

If the case is made to oem spec, you can use a regular generic rolex crystal and gasket. If the case is not oem spec and it uses a flat side crystal, you can substitute a regular sapphire or mineral glass crystal of the correct size.

I made an Ex I out of parts on hand and it took a 29.5mm X 2.0mm straight side sapphire crystal (about $20). The crystal sizes are not all the same on replica Ex I watches so you will have to measure the crystal to make sure what size it is.

Something else...generic straight side sapphire crystals will usually have a shallow tapered top edge compared to a genuine or replica type rolex crystal.

On my Ex I project the shallow tapered area did not matter because there is very little crystal rising above the bezel ring. Submariners, GMT, Ex II etc have more crystal showing above the bezels and a regular sapphire crystal might not look right.

"The big question does the stem line up as the Real Rolex movement does; if that is the case no more low position crown and correct rehaut. meaning accurate Submariner and Seadweller."

If genuine dials and hands also fit, it will turn a lot of empty genuine cases and spare dials into running watches without much hassle.

I bet relax watch co jumps through their azz when they see this.

"Long time ago when I posted this review."

This review has been in my favorites since you posted it.

I still have 7 new swisseta F520117 (5 black, 2 Kermit)...all still in the plastic wrappers with bezel guards on them (none for sale at this time).

I just now compared a '21 jewel' F520117 'parts case' and it is exactly like the swisseta models with the 2.2mm reflector ring (rehaut). It came with a DG/CH 21 jewel movement and the same dial as swisseta models except for the dial foot location. They all have stepped oem style (but out of spec) crystals with 9mm offset magnifiers. The 90 degree cut from the angled reflector down to the crystal makes the reflector (rehaut) look smaller than it really is.

Btw...the closest case I have to the F520117 is an old River 'TWB' case from 6 or 8 years ago. It does not have any engraving at all on it but it is the only submariner style case I have that has a caseback that will interchange with the F520117 case. The River case has a straight side (no step) sapphire crystal, slightly taller reflector ring (rehaut), lug holes, and pointed crown guards (pointed CG?).

Something else...I just bought a DW 5513 case from Sly (smooth deal!) without a caseback and the F520117 caseback fits it. Nothing else I had would work out of 30+ cases with one exception, a River Exp II from the same era as the TWB submariner.

It is true that many replica GMT Masters are very close to genuine in appearance. I have a 40mm sapphire GMT II that is very close except for the wrong hand stack and I doubt many people will notice this flaw. A late model GMT II with an accurate bracelet will usually pass under the 'replica radar' with no trouble. Dials used to be a quick tell but now that dials are so good, it usually takes a close examination to spot many replicas. I showed a watch trader friend who wears a genuine GMT II my replica GMT II and he never noticed the incorrect hand stack. After looking at it for 5 minutes, I had to point it out. He figured it was a replica only because I was wearinig it...anyone else could get by with it easily.

Read By-Tor's review secton as he has a good eye and points out the flaws.

Sapphire crystal Exp II is also a good candidate, one reason being that few people are familiar with them.

Sapphire crystal 36mm DJ will usually pass under the 'replica radar' as long as the dial is high quality. People do not give a DJ a second glance.

The main problem with a modern submariner is that most people figure it is a replica no matter what so the latest and greatest 'best submariner' gets no more respect than a low buck noob.

A Venus 175 stem might work as that is what they made the ST19 from. Maybe someone will know.

The tudor 390 is a 12.5 ligne FEF (Fleurier Ebauche Factory) 380/390 base movement and is known to be an Ok base movement but with a troublesome autowind assembly (I do not know if this a/w assembly is exclusive to tudor or not). For this reason, autowind parts are very hard to find so if you buy a movement needing parts, it can be an expensive project.

Some 'rolexperts' claim the tudor 390 can use parts from a rolex 1030...I seriously doubt anything will interchange.

My guess is the cost of a Yuki etc 5513/1680 case/dial with rolex 1520/1575 would not be much more than a Yuki etc tudor case/dial with a tudor 390 needing a few parts.

Tudor projects with an Eta 24xx/28xx cost much less to put together.

I had a 390 autowind assembly in my watchjunk but have not seen it since I moved my shop in 1997.

"The question has some aspects, such as if you wait, how likely is it that the movement will need funadamental repair, and how likely is it that a simple service will solve the problem?"

One way to judge the condition of a movement is consistency...

Does it lose or gain close to the same amount every 3 or 4 days?

Is the running reserve about the same when worn daily?

Does it keep close to the same time running face down as face up or crown right and left overnight? Irregular running in one or more positions might be dry balance jewel(s), hairspring dragging etc.

If you can see the movement, does it have dirt specks or oil dots like the one in the picture? If yes...it probably needs service.

There are a lot of parts in a 7750 and they seem to have a higher than average failure rate (Asian models), plus they are a pain to work on so to avoid $urprise$, take this all into consideration when buying a watch with one in it.

I stay away from them because...

I do not need a chronograph (but they are cool).

I do not like to work on chronographs.

Any A7750 needing parts usually means you need a donor movement.

The ST19 beats the A7750 and a $35 Citizen OS20 or ISA 8161 beats them both (imho).

Summed up...

At my age, life is too short to screw with mechanical chronographs.

Time to 'fess up...if they came out with quartz chronographs that had running seconds and center timer hands that went tickie, tickie, tickie instead of whack! whack! whack!...would you still want a mechanical chronograph?

"1 more quicky - are the tiny sticky Dial pads the best thing to attach the dial to the movement?"

Sticky dial pads aka 'Dial Dots' are basically Ok for cheapo quartz watches and lost cause emergency repairs but not really suitable to use on watches with screw down crowns or watches with much room between the movement/movement spacer and case because Dial Dots allow sideways movement. When you screw a spring loaded crown down or pull the crown out to time setting position (when there is room for the dial or movement to move), the movement and/or dial may slide out of place and allow the hour wheel tube or hour hand hub to be pulled against the dial hole, stopping the watch...while scratching the outer edge of the dial.

Gluing the dial to the calendar spacer on Eta 2824/36/46 is usually the best method like JMB said. Sometimes you can glue 'platform' type dial feet to a dial and use them to hold the dial to the movement but you must have room for the small platform (washer) that attaches the dial foot to the dial and you have to use very strong cement of some sort. Superglue does not work very well because it is too brittle.

Something else about superglue is that it raises fingerprints and if there is a fingerprint on a dial etc and superglue vapor gets to it...the fingerprint becomes permanent, just like on CSI.

On watches with tight clearances between the dial, movement/movement spacer, and the case...you might get by Ok with dial dots as long as the watch uses movement/case clamps and screws that hold the movement securely in place. Dial Dots work in this situation only because there is not enough room for the dial/movement to slide around...providing there is enough tension from the case clamps/screws.

"Don't forget, the MBW 1680 sub dials are 26.2mm. A gen and regular aftermarket 1680 sub dial is 26.5mm. So you either have to trim the dial, or enlarge the MBW case, neither of which is an easy task as far as I can tell."

"Can rework the inside lip of the case so you can use a Gen Dial or is too difficult?"

Going from a 26.2mm dial to a 26.5mm dial would only take a case cut (actual metal removal) of a little bit more than .15mm (a .15mm cut equals .30mm bigger in diameter). Since the 'rehaut' would only be covering .15mm more of the dial, it might not show from the front. If it does show or is too close to the minute marks, it would be easy to cut .15mm away from the dial opening.

Depending on how much clearance was originally allowed for the 25.2mm dial in the MBW case, the cut to accept a 26.5mm dial may not be much at all.

On Eta 2824/36 movements with 9mm date offset overlays...you can install the date wheel with the overlay in place but you must be sure that the date index spring is in place before tightening the screws (one at approx 2:30 and one approx 8:30) that hold the calendar (plates) down.

The index spring will be out of sight and can easily get caught between the date wheel and mainplate. Also be sure the calendar wheel 'flipper arm' is out of the way of the teeth inside the date wheel.

Other than that, it is the same as with original parts.

"My only advice, is NOT to twist the stem slightly (as advice is sometimes given) when reinstalling."

I turn the stem so the square on the stem will slip through square hole in the winding pinion and not unseat it.

"Given my long history of screwing up keyless works by removing the stem in the wrong position - where should the crown be when I pull it out?"

From my experience (and screw-ups):

Seagull ST6 works best in setting position. When installing the stem it usually helps to push the detent button down a bit while inserting the stem.

DG, CH etc '21' jewel movements work best in winding position. No need to push the detent button.

Eta 2824/2836 etc seem to work better in setting position and it helps to push the detent button when inserting the stem.

1...Push the detent button.

2...Slowly turn the crown/stem while gently shoving the stem all the way into the movement.

3...Release the detent button and gently pull the stem out to setting position in order to align all the parts. Check to make sure winding, time, and date setting works Ok.

Q...Why push the detent button on ST6 and Eta but not DG/CH when installing the stem?

A...Because the slope on the Seagull and Eta stem collar is so short and steep that it sometimes pushes the detent/set lever out of place when inserting the stem. The DG/CH collar has a long, mild incline.

Eta 2824/2836 etc notes:

**Use a screwdriver to push the detent button because using a pointed tool can result in dislocating the set lever/set bridge alignment. If the stem pulls out when setting the watch...do not cram it back in because it will sometimes shove the set lever out of place.

**If you do push the set lever etc out of place...push the detent button in and install the stem and push it all the way in, pull it out to settinig position and see if everything works. If it does, you lucked up.

**If the set lever is shoved out of place...most of the time you can reset the set lever by removing the autowind assembly and mainspring bridge and moving the parts around with a screwdriver etc. If not you will have to remove the hands, dial, and calendar works as exolained below.

**If the detent button is pushed in too far...the hands, dial, and calendar works will have to come off...then remove the set bridge, line everything up, put the MS bridge on, install the stem, and see if everything works.

**After installing the calendar wheel...remove the hour wheel and turn the date flipper to where it rests just under the next tooth on the inside of the calendar wheel. This is so when the dial is installed, it will only take a few degrees of crown turning to flip the date so the hands can be installed at midnight.

**On older 2824 etc watches...the stem hole in the mainplate will sometimes wear (especially if the stem is in a bind), and the stem will sometimes pull out when setting the watch. The cheap fix is to swap the detent out with a new or like new part. If this does not work, try a new stem because the collar on the stem may be worn down or damaged. Be careful when holding a stem in a pin vise because if the pin vise is tight and you spin the stem while tightening the crown...it can shave a little metal off the collar and allow the stem/crown to pull out of the watch.

***There used to be oversize stems for older manual wind watches but I have never seen one for Eta automatics.

The best way to learn about the setting works is to buy an old Eta 2824/2836/46 etc, remove the balance and autowind assembly (they are just in the way), then take it apart and put it together about 25 times.

After you master the setting works...move on to the train wheels...autowind assembly...and last, the balance/balance jewels etc.

No kidding.

"Your crown looks too big (wide). You definitely need a gen for that watch."

"It is Gen, Monobloc 703/704. I have a non-Monoblock here that I will most likely swap out."

I measuerd seven slightly used (very little apparent wear) 24-703-0 monos and they all measure between 3.75mm and 3.85mm high across the cap skirt to the top of the cap right up against the crown tube. None are damaged and none appear to have been polished.

A new mono 24-703-0 right out of the pack measured 3.85mm.

Also measured a few 3 dot 'crimped' styles and they measured 3.7mm to 3.75mm.

Earlier 'no dot' crowns measured 3.6mm.

Someone else could measure a 704 crown and see what they get.

I have a few replica crowns and some look a bit tall so I measured a couple and they are 4.15mm high and will not screw down on a genuine case tube because the crown threads are too small.

Next, I looked on bernardwatch.com at submariner 16610 made ca 2005 (bernard number RLX4961) and the crown, probably a 24-703-0, looks a bit tall. Maybe it's the angle.

"I haven't, and won't use epoxy/JB Weld because I know that someday I will want to remove the insert to do something stupid to my watch again."

I don't blame you...I'm not looking forward to it.

I have used regular two part epoxy and removed the bezel insert later without a lot of trouble but JB Weld might be harder to deal with. I figure the insert will be ruined upon removal.

On this case the bezel is held on the case by a spring wire so I will have to remove the crown, crystal, all gaskets, movement etc and heat the bezel insert to get the JB Weld to turn loose. There is no plastic or rubber left after removing the crown, crown gaskets, crystal, and crystal gaskets on this particular case and there is no gasket between the case tube and case.

Crystal gaskets...this case has 2 crystal gaskets...one flat gasket on the bottom of the crystal seat to raise the crystal up a little and a regular 'I' type band gasket that the crystal presses into. Usually when a crystal needs to be raised up, a one piece 'L' type gasket is used.

On the regular two part epoxy insert removals, I used a small torch that has a Bic lighter in it. It makes a blue pin point flame and works fine on this type of project.

There is one similar to it on eBay, item number 170668364878

If I remove the insert later on, I will post how much trouble it was.

I started buying 'Swiss' eta powered replicas 20+ years ago and back then the ones I got all had new swiss made etas in them, mostly 17 jewel 2846. I found them in an ad in USA Today and you called an 800 number and left a message for 'Jay' etc to call you. 'Jay' called back in 30 minutes or less, took the order, and the watches arrived COD in a few days. I still have a couple and they still run.

Fast forward to the WLD, River, Abay/WO Mart etc days of RWCC and TRC replica collector forums(late 1990's/early 2000's) and you still got new etas as advertised, sometimes as low as $159 delivered. This was the norm (except for prices!) up until around 2005/2007 or so when Swatch cracked the whip on China watch factories who did contract work for swiss brands and used genuine swiss etas...the swiss etas were leaking out under the doors and winding up in replicas and Swatch wanted it stopped.

They announced they were cutting production and started getting very particular about who got the movements.

Enter the 'etaclone'...

Today we have Asian and swiss (Sellita) 'etaclones', and genuine swiss eta movements. When you buy a 'swiss eta' replica watch, it may have a genuine movement but it also might be a 'take out' from a NOS or used watch and they come in every condition from new and clean to worn out and dirty.

Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes not...you just have to take a chance. Many times the watches are 'drop shipped' from a location not related to the seller and the seller does not know what is really shipped out. Sometimes you hit it lucky and get exactly what you paid for although imho the chance of this is getting slimmer by the month as supplies or new and used etas in the replica market are rapidly drying up.

I always got what I ordered up until about 2007 when I got an Asian etaclone after paying for a genuine eta. Since then, I do not buy much and if I do buy something, I choose the etaclone because they are cheaper than 'genuine eta' and you can always swap the etaclone out with a genuine eta if the etaclone bites the weenie.

So...If I could be dead sure I was getting a clean genuine eta, I would pay extra for one. If I was in doubt, I would go for an etaclone and be on the lookout for a genuine eta movement.

I have stuck bezel inserts in bezels with all kinds of glue including the ever swelling Gorilla Glue. First time I ever used anything like GG was in the late 1970's when I bought some urethane glue. Next day the parts I had glued together were STUCK all right...but they were about 2mm apart.

So...I stay away from GG on bez inserts. What I use is mostly 2 part epoxy. I tried RTV (silicone) and it is Ok but I just do not like it...the 'boogers' are a pain to remove.

Tried 'waterproof' two part epoxy on a couple inserts but the 'waterproof' claim means little as regular epoxy seems to hold up Ok under (now and then) wet situations. I'm more worried about the case filling up with water anyway.

Yesterday, I stuck a bez insert in a watch using the (motorcycle) trail rider's best friend...JB Weld because it was all I had. I put a thin layer of JBW on the bezel after cleaning the bezel and bottom of the insert with acetone on a Q-tip. I mounted the insert and double checked to make sure it lined up Ok at 12 with the clicks. Then I put the case on a cup in a BB crystal press with another cup on top with a layer of wax paper between the insert and the press cup in case some JBW leaked out (there is a notch in the cup to clear the pearl).

Last, I tied the press lever down with a few stiff rubber bands to provide pressure overnight.

For what it's worth, it turned out just fine.

When using 2 part epoxy, I stick a couple toothpicks etc together with the excess so I can check hardness after a few hours to make sure it sets up correctly. JBW sets up harder than a $10 hooker's heart.

Free short story:

Motorcycle trail rider's around here carry 3 emergency tools...duct tape, contact cleaner/brake cleaner, and JB Weld.

After busting a case or side cover on a sharp rock:

1...lean it over so the oil runs away from the damaged area

2...spray it down with CC/BC

3...spread JBJ around the damaged area

4...eat a sandwich and take a nap while it dries

Contact cleaner/brake cleaner is also good in emergencys for cleaning dirt out of gouges in your arm etc and duct tape is good for coverinig up the gash...or makinig splints for broken arms, legs etc.

A couple guys I know were riding around a deserted coal mine a few years ago and one turned a flip and landed in a pile of rocks. After he got back up he said he was Ok except his hand was hurting real bad. When he pulled his gloves off...his left little finger was missing. It got between the end of the handlebar and the rocks.

They shook the finger out of the glove and put it in a little bitty cooler they had strapped on one bike and taped the end of the severed finger up with duct tape to slow the bleeding and took off to load their MCs up and go to the hospital.

Iirc it grew back but does not work very well.

Once again, duct tape saved the day although no JB Weld was needed.

"I know this is an old thread, but what size dials are being used in those 5514s?"

I have one of these watches from Paul/Wo-Mart (ca 2004/5)...the dial is 26.5mm and (get this!) the dial seat in the case is 29.2mm outside diameter.

What saves the day is that the dial opening in the case is only 25.9mm. The dial is a lot smaller than the outer diameter of the dial seat but since the opening is only 25.9mm, it all works Ok thanks to the brass movement spacer that holds the movement centered in the case.

So...this particular case will accept a dial from 26.5mm to 28.5mm+/-. If you use a larger dial with the markers close to the outside, they may be partially hidden by the wide dial seat.

The dial seat inner diameter would be easy to cut out to work with a larger dial but this will reduce the width of the reflector/rehaut as seen from the front of the watch.

This line of watches from Paul/Wo-Mart did not have crystal retaining bezels...the crystal was cemented to the case with a space between the crystal and the top of the case. The rotating bezel has a spring wire in it and the spring wire fits in the space between the crystal and the top of the case, thereby allowing the bezel to turn.

Now we pay $500+ for basically the same (empty!) case with a better bezel assembly.

"A few years ago, it was pretty cost effective to just build a DJ frankenstein using a genuine case and dial with an ETA inside; the total cost was not much more than some of the old TW Best reps. But the cost for gen case kits has gone up. Still doable, just more expensive..."

For sure!

About 5 or 7 years ago I bought a few tutone DJ with ST6 movements and the cases would take genuine DJ 16200 crystal gaskets and crystals. Maybe you can find a similar case.

I installed gen spec crystal gaskets, sapphire crystals, and case tubes from Star Time on a couple along with a used genuine crowns and they did not leak at 100 psi (6 or 7 atm in my water tester)...Bergeon 5555/98 with a Shrader valve on the cap so I can put air in it from a small air tank.

These cases are 'no hole' cases (sapphire crystal models) and I ruined one trying to drill the lug holes out but a 135 acrylic crystal will also fit. I put a couple together with the ST6 replica dials and eta movements and they looked just like a genuine case except they do not have any numbers on the case between the lugs (one had 'fuk u watch co' stamped in the caseback showing they had a sense of humor). The ST6 had 9mm offset dials and date wheels so I cemented the dial to the eta 2836 calendar spacer and the ST6 date wheel to the eta calendar.

They also make good sapphire explorer cases if you can find a dial...and no date wheels etc to worry with.

It seems to be a test to see how high retail prices can go before buyer resistance causes a loss in revenue...if they can make $1billion profit with a production of 950,000 pieces, making the same profit while selling 800,000 pieces would be much better.

Otoh, maybe they are trying to move upmarket by raising prices every few months, thereby weeding out low class price hagglers (like me).

For what it's worth...they weeded me out 13 years ago. I have not set foot in a rolex AD since May 1998.

Since later model used rolex watches tend to rise with retail prices, modern watches in the used market will keep going up as long as retail prices rise. The 16610 may rise ahead of other models because they are no longer in production and still in demand.

I guess if I wanted a late model DJ, sub, XI, XII, GMT etc, I would keep my eyes open for a motivated seller who needs $$ and does not read watch forums on the internet (TZ, WN etc 'for sale' prices have always been quite a bit higher than what I would pay). The last modern rolex I bought was a 'like new' (I don't like that term) 14010M AK for $1200 a year or so back.

It really was 'like new'...except the idiot who owned it used pliers on the crown.

I doubt Germany is the same as the USA though...in the USA many rolex owners will sell their watch for half what it is worth if they need fast $$. To catch this type of seller, you might place a WTB ad in the local paper and meet prospective sellers at your bank. If you like the watch, make an offer...if they say "Ok", draw the $$ out of the bank and pay them.

I bought a few watches this way and it is safer than meeting a stranger at a potentially unsafe location...a stranger who knows you are carrying enough $$ to buy a rolex watch.

"Do you want that old style clasp with the dentation at the end?

Then a gen clasp is the only possible choice and it is worth it!"

I agree genuine is the way to fly but 'Paul' supplied them on some of his vintage submariners when he was 'Abay' 5 or 7 years ago if you can locate one. Some came with the coronet stamped sideways on the clasp.