automatico

"There seem to be some mystery bezels sets that are quite reasonable on eBay; however, who's to tell they'll fit well over a gen crystal before one cracks it."

(I have probably posted this 10 times)

1...If you plan to do much crystal fitting, you will need a precision digital caliper, not a $12.99 cheapo, a good one...if you do not have one already. 

2...Measure the OD of the crystal after  it is pushed down on the case neck...write it down.  Measuring a loose crystal is usually not going to give an accurate measurement.

3...Measure the ID of the inner (crystal retaining) bezel...write it down.

4...The inner crystal retaining bezel needs to be around .1mm to .2 mm smaller than the crystal (measured on the watch). 

5...Use a heavy duty bezel press with metal dies if possible, plastic dies are usually too flimsy.  You will soon develop a 'feel' for proper fit.  Mine is an old Japan made 'BB' press from way back and now reproductions are available at 'affordable' prices.

Here are BB styles with tapered and straight wall dies and you can find these presses at reasonable prices if you look around.  The second listing has a much better price. 

http://www.jewelerssupplies.com/product12034.html   

http://collectionsmall.stores.yahoo.net/wacaprcrprwi.html

Here is a cheapo model that might  be Ok:  https://www.amazon.com/Watch-Crystal-Press-Watchmaker-Repair/dp/B000RB3HRU   The frame is probably made out of 'pot metal'.  BB type bases are made out of cast iron.

The general rule is cheapo tools = broken parts....but not always.

Imho...

Genuine crystals are over rated, especially on project watches.  I have used GS crystals for 40 years and never had any problems and their crystals for vintage no date submariners come in 4 or 5 sizes.  Sternkreuz are Ok too but sometimes not a precision fit.

Like I said many times before...when you find a crystal that fits...buy 3 of them.  Many no name 'internet' crystals are out of spec, sometimes from one batch to the next.

Many no name internet bezel kits are not too hot either.  The better sets come from Clark, watchman408 (on eBay) and ST in my experience.  Better = they fit.

The 'slo-mo' 18kbph 2451 Etas are fine movements.  I have one in a 20 year old BB project watch, c/o one time in 20 years, still runs like a top.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&ETA_2451

A First Class Job!  

I guess I'm a fake guy because I took a rolex 1570 made out of parts gathered from here and there plus c/o/put it together, stuck it in an MBK case with aftmkt bezel kit, dial, hands, case tube, crystal, one of Mary's folded bracelets...and cranked out a 'fake vintage' watch that will run for a many years.  I can't help being a little bit proud of it even if it is a 'fake' because I put it together, know it inside and out, and can fix it if it breaks. 

So...when some dildo with shiny shoes and a new submarooner starts bragging about how great and expensive his watch is and spouts 'fake watches are for fake people', I have to wonder if characters like that ever learn anything about life or just slide in and out, always being a dildo.  

"This one was $175 brand new."

...back when an RC and a Moon Pie was less than a quarter. 

"What I liked about the date wheel was the date 'ring' was easier to work with and lining it up using little tabs to secure it to the date wheel."

Speaking of 3804B date wheels...I have a few (no lug holes with hollow link/sel) 16710 GMT II and 16570 Exp II with 3804B movements and they all have proper modern style 'closed' rolex font numbers on the date wheels and the same offset as genuine...one piece dw without overlay.  I got them 5 or 6 years ago. 

Is this dw font and offset common on new 3804B replacement movements or only made for certain watches?

BTW...this was a strange batch of watches with sapphire crystals, brass movement spacers with case screws, hollow link high quality bracelets, steel case tubes and crowns, and fine looking dials/hands.  The 'wholesaler' they came from claimed the cases/bracelets were made for 'swiss' movements but the supply was cut off so they put 3804B in them...probably BS but they look very good.  I have a few of the same exact GMT cases/dials with swiss eta movements from 10+ years back but they have hollow mid link bracelets with hoods so maybe the story was true (more or less).  

"I have both the ETA2846 and the DG3804B, and both are running for years now.  I understand the desire for a gen Swiss movement, but the Chinese movement is just as accurate, and substantially less expensive in both the short and long run.  No need to service, just replace with a brand new movement for under $35."

+1

I usually give Asian '21 jewel' movements a low rating but have a 'GMT' with a DG 3804B that I wear now and then and it has been reliable for 5 or 6 years.  As long as the movement is in good condition, I remove the hands/dial etc and clean and oil the balance jewels, oil the pallet stones/escape wheel teeth, and anything else I can get to.  This is a half azz fix but they seem to be fine after this little bit of attention.  The calendar works/date QS parts can be a pain though.

The watch looks super fine!

Using the Exp II case solves the wide crown cut-out problem.

Hand stack problems...

I had a genuine late 1980s Red & Blue R427xxx 16750 (cal 3075) in 1991 with printed markers/acrylic crystal and making up a replica like it might also be a good project, the reason being it has the correct 24H, 12H, M, Sec hand stack and thicker case much like a submariner...the 3075 has a QS date but the 24H hand is geared to the 12H hand like a 1675.  For this reason a later model thick replica case could be used along with a swiss or Asian eta 2836 with the Asian 24 hour conversion to make a '16750'...this would solve the thin case/slow beat movement 1675 hassles.  One main catch would be the OPD dial because it looks like all (most?) of the genuine 16750 matte dials with printed markers had OP dials (not OPD above center like most of the 1675 replica dials made for eta 28xx) that could be used on this project...or you could always go with a Yuki 1675 (27.3mm) dial to make it look better.

I looked at my 'nos' swisseta fast beat/OPD dial '1675' from about 10 years back and it has a slightly smaller crown cut-out than a submariner but uses a 6mm crown instead of 5.3mm...might also be an Exp II case to start with. 

NOS replicas...it that a 'collector category' or a curse?  

Rolex Caliber  3075

Introduced  1981

Power Reserve  42 Hours

Jewels  27

Fixed 24 Hour GMT Hand

"Some of the best money I ever spent was to get the best stereo microscope I could afford, A very good stereo microscope is worth ever penny ! and the next best money was for upgraded "super wide field" eye pieces !"

I have a Japan made scope very similar to yours and it is a dark gray 1960s/1970s Bulova Accutron SM-1 model.  About 25 Years ago a local jeweler went from watches in general to quartz only and I bought everything they had pertaining to Accutrons and mechanical watches, including the scope.  I got about 50 Accutrons in the deal (most not running) but they are all gone now.

Here are pictures of a scope like mine:

 http://www.relic-watches.com/watch-80257-Bulova-Accutron-Stereo-Microscope

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/7169574

The way I see stuff like this...

Say it is genuine and someone pays $100k for it (remembering this watch is probably only worth this much $$ to maybe 25 very strange people in the world).  I sure would hate to get caught with one when they go cold.  Or maybe the guy who buys one of these things 'buys the farm' soon after the purchase and his dopehead son/daughter/nephew/third exwife finds it and sells it to the nearest pawn shop for $500.  Maybe the guy just loses it down a drain.  It's still a lo$$.

If the watch is a replica...$2000 will knock it in the head if the movement is genuine, but it will probably not be worth any less for a long time so if you were to put one together it would not be too much of a gamble imho.

Things like this are 'generational collector items' and when all the 'investors' go broke, lose interest, wise up, or go RIP, this stuff may not worth much.  We are also seeing this now with 'supercars' that I could have purchased in like new condition for a few thousand $$ 'back in the day'.  I did not pay much for them back then and am not (fill in the blank) enough to buy one at today's prices.  I have friends with restored or low mileage 1960s/1970s supercars and the cars soon become a full time job just keeping them from rotting away...rubber hoses/tires/upholstery dry out and crack, engines develop leaks, gasoline goes dead and sets up in carbs/fuel lines (so the owner runs the car every now and then to prevent gasoline damage and the short run time causes condensation that rusts holes in the $3000 exhaust system), 'pop top' batteries leak acid on shiny stuff under the hood, brake fluid turns into pond scum, rubber axle, crank etc seals dry out, exterior paint dulls, plastic dashboard parts/steering wheel rims etc crack...and when you finally get up enough nerve to take one of these trophies out for a Sunday drive, some Idiot with no insurance runs over it while texting his best friend Bob. 

This is why they make replica watches and brand new 'pay by the month' supercars.   

"28.5?  This last batch of cases I have might take one of these.  When I first started modding these cases the "dial seat" was about 28.25mm and a gen movement probably wouldn't fit.  The later cases (past year maybe?) have a dial seat of a little over 29mm so the gen movement might fit.  I really don't know as I've never had a gen movement to play with..."

I tried a no date 1570 in a last edition JMB case and the movement goes in with plenty of room to spare.  A genuine spec 27.9mm OD x .4mm thick 1016 dial will need to be carefully centered and solidly mounted in the 27.3mm JMB dial window so the spacer will have to be precision made.

You could make a dummy movement out of aluminum to use for fitting and making spacers etc.

1570 no date   http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Rolex_1570   Same as 1520/1530/1560/1570.

1575 date   http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Rolex_1575   Same as all 'time and date' 15xx movements.

From the Ranfft rolex 1570/75 charts:

"Do = 28.5mm"  is for 'Diameter overall' at 28.5mm.  "Dm = 28.2mm"  is for 'Diameter minimum' at 28.2mm.  The main plate has a step down from the back side of the movement for about half the thickness of the main plate that is 28.2mm.  This step will have no effect on our projects so 28.5mm is what we need.

"What is the OD of the 1570?"

Exactly 28.5mm.

"I just "installed" a new Yuki rivet on a recent build and the endlinks were very flimsy and didn't fit..."

 Never had a Yuki rivet, have a couple genuine rivet oysters and they do not fit either.  They just flop around, chewing serial and reference numbers away. 

"Would I be better off just buying a JMB V2 case set?  These didn't exist to my knowledge when I had this one put together back in 2012."

Probably be Ok as long as the 1570 will work in the JMB case and my guess is it should.  I do not have a 15xx no date movement handy so I can not try one to see if it will fit the JMB case.  I stuck a '1016' together a few years ago with a genuine 162xx case and 1570 and everything went together Ok but the case appeared to be a bit thick compared to a genuine case.  The JMB V2 case looks better so I got one for another '1016' project but never finished it.  

A 1575 date movement is about .5mm thicker than a no date movement and this can cause the stem to be too far toward the back in some cases.  A no date rolex 15xx will fit in a 16200 case and a 15xx date movement will work in a 16000 case.

Got two '7836' from Mary today.  Great service and fast delivery...still $55 each plus shipping.

On the Yuki website the current 3135 clone price is $380 and that is really not too bad if you are comparing it to a genuine 3135 for a project that is not going to be 100% genuine.  The two main catches with clone movements are always the same...questionable reliability and no parts.  Because of this you might need two movements, one to use in the project watch plus one for parts, and that bumps it up to $760 ($760 = 5 or 6 used swiss Etas).  If some genuine 3135 parts will work that is good but it will not take long to eat a few hundred $$ when buying genuine parts. 

For instance...I have 2 or 3 'like new' 162xx cases from 20+ years ago when there was a cottage industry making replica solid 18K Prez and DJ with genuine movements and the leftover cases were being sold at watch shows (high gold prices soon killed this little 'industry').  If I wanted to make up a steel 'DJ' with genuine case, dial, hands, crown etc I could go with a Yuki 3135 clone, but I would not do that.  I would go with a replica 162xx case/bezel/dial/sapphire crystal with genuine crown, genspec tube, and swiss Eta.  Why?  Because I figure the swiss Eta would be more reliable than a Yuki 3135 clone (with cheaper parts) and the replica 162xx case would be close to as good as genuine with high grade gaskets/bezel/crystal.  Guesstimate:  complete genuine case + Yuki 3135 + genuine dial + genuine crown + Eta DJ type hands/gaskets = around $1000 (no bracelet).  Same watch with complete replica case and swiss Eta = around $450 and still have the genuine case (a 162xx case in fine condition same as mine will go for $500+ because so many have rotted out by now and RWC probably wants $2k for one (plus their mandatory $1000 tune-up).

My guess is the Yuki type 3135 clones are about $200 each from the factory...not bad but you may have to buy 50 or 100.  Here are the catches:  1...How to assure safe delivery...or assure delivery at all?  2...They will probably send some defective movements/customer returns mixed in with the order.  3...What about parts?  (parts = SOS, there ain't none)  I learned the hard way about defective watches, store returns etc mixed in with new watch/movement orders from being associated with a watch store for nine years...if a customer returns a doa $20 fashion watch and you send it back for credit, do not be surprised when it comes back to you (still doa) in the next order.  How could I tell?  I marked them with a carbide graver before sending them back.  Many cheapo fashion watches have a 10% or higher failure rate...'failure rate' = run for 6 months.  China clone movements are probably about the same.

If you see a new 16mm steel rolex strap buckle with a genuine appearing green and white rolex NYC envelope at a much lower price than usual...it is probably NOT genuine.  They were $10 ($10USD each!) at a watch show a couple weeks ago.  The paper envelopes have the rolex coronet at the top on the back side along with:  'Rolex Watch USA Inc.' over 'Genuine Materials' and under that is  T/104/79.  The front has:  MODEL  in the top left corner, and down under that is has  QUANTITY:  and at the bottom is  ROLEX  with  SWISS MADE  under it.  In other words the envelope will pass for genuine and the buckle probably will too.  The back side of the buckle has the common mistake of ACIERINOX spelled as one word...other than that they are very high quality.  They came in a small plastic bag with a staple through the bag and envelope with the buckle loose between the envelope and bag. 

You can find similar buckles on eBay minus the envelope for $11:  eBay item number:  131995847895

"Nope. 14060 uses a 286 crystal."

Ok, thanks.  I never worked on one...all my stuff is vintage.  I got this info from ST:    RP29-295-2(M) - 2.70mm, for Sub - No Date Case No: 14060  For Higher Crystal Clearance: RP29‑295‑T(M)
Gasket Depth: 3.00mm

Looks to me if any watch keeps accurate time, it could not be a 'fake' watch because a 'fake' watch would have to always show the wrong time.  

Question...if you take a genuine rolex 16610 and stamp 'Dickwatch' on the dial...is it still a genuine rolex, or is it just another Dickwatch?

"I'm curious what everyone thinks about the near future of laser cutting your own parts to DIY movement replicas."

Raw plates would not be too hard to make but precision cutting all the jewel holes and various grooves, stands etc that are needed would be a challenge, not counting mounting all the jewels at the proper depth etc.  What I always thought would be a pretty good idea was a conventional movement (Eta 28xx etc with a low cost parts supply) precision modified to accept rolex spec dials/hands/dw. 

Off subject...otoh, how about a quartz 'smooth sweep' movement like the Bulova Precisionist/Accutron II that would accept rolex dials/hands/dw for modern fast beat styles?  Imagine a '16610' that was extremely rugged (no broken balance staffs/auto rotor axles/jewels etc), keeps time within 10 or 15 sec/month, always ready to wear, only needs a 2016 battery every 18 months to keep it running, and never needs the famous rolex $1200 'screw-u-tune-up'.  That would be hard to beat imho.  Btw, I bet if the rolex OQ looked like a regular DJ (instead of a fake Royal Oak), and had a high grade smooth sweep movement...it would still be in production and out selling a large percentage of their expensive little mechanical headache$.

...or what if RWC offered a retrofit high grade smooth sweep OQ movement to replace mechanical movements in submariners, DJ, GMT etc for the same price as their famou$ mechwatch tune up?  Before long they would be everywhere.  Most people today do not really like all the mechwatch hassles...myself included.   

"I just gave up on this one. For now I have parts worth £4000 pounds according to today prices, and in the end after all efforts and years of collecting parts I would have franken 1680 for price of gen."

I know what you mean.  A '1655' project with Phong case/dial and rolex 1575 converted to 1575GMT sunk my boat.  I got a good deal on the slightly used case/dial and first class movement but the GMT parts chase lasted a couple years and cost way too much $$.  I quit at $3k USD.

"I see entire ladies date bracelets even with gold midlinks for the cost of a worn out 93150 clasp!   Stupidly annoying."

I hear you.        Lady rolex stuff goes cheap compared to gents stuff.

I have posted this a few times before but here is what my first MBK 5513 cost to put together a few years ago:

About $1300:
$300 for case
$102 for Yuki dial
$25 for TC tube and crown
$12.13 for ST hands
$650 for rolex 1520 mvt
$20 for mainspring etc
$0 for c/o
$85 for replica 358 hoods and put together a folded oyster from 'Mary' with '8 hole in a row' old style clasp cap
$12 for GS crystal
$68 for ST bezel kit (fit better than MBK bez with the GS crystal that was used)
$25 misc...spring bars, gaskets, case screws etc

Same watch with a Yuki case would be about $400 more than with an MBK case.

Had to use a 1575 date center wheel/cp and calendar spacer on the 1520 because the MBK 5513 case is made to 1680 spec, not 5513 spec. Extra cost is included with movement.
The center sweep sec pivot is the same on 1520 and 1575, the 1575 second hand has a longer tube.

Because 1520/60/70 movements and cases have gone up along with some other parts, the next one (5512) that was finished last year was probably $500 more.

An earlier '1680' project (before the MBK 5513) with DW case, 1575 and original dial cost about $300 more than the MBK 5513 even though the DW case was less at about $200 but the movement/original dial cost more than the 1520 with Yuki dial.  From my experience 5512/13 seem to cost the least and another advantage is they do not have a date to fool with along with date mag problems.  On the '1680' I left the DW bezel kit and crystal on the watch because the date magnifier was in the correct position and had 'Big Eye' magnification like genuine.

"...I'm doing my own super budget 5513 build using a super cheap 16610 style case off FleaBay on RWI."

You will need a 5512/5513 type case made to oem specs in order to go to genuine type parts.  Making a 5513 out of a 16610 would be quite a leap as some replica 16610 cases have an 'I' or 'L' type crystal gasket seated in the top of the case with a glass or sapphire crystal pressed down into the gasket unlike oem.  The genuine 16610 has a setup similar to a 1680 but uses a plastic crystal gasket over the outside of the case neck with the sapphire crystal seated in the top edge of the gasket.  The inner bezel presses down over the gasket and holds the gasket and crystal to the case.  Same principle as a 1680 but with different parts and different specs.

Rolex 5513 case neck diameter is 28.2mm.   Rolex 16610 case neck diameter is about 29.5mm so oem parts are not a match.  A better alternative might be a cartel 5513 with a 21 jewel Asian movement.

Blindpirat:  "I gave up on my 1680 build based on MBK case (too many things to redo in this one) + phong caseback other parts are gen."

I have done a few MBK projects and there is not an easy fix that I know of for laser etched MBK case backs other than replacing them because oem lettering is done by stamping, not engraving.  What you replace them with can make a big difference in $$ though.  Phong case backs are expensive so I use case backs from the old DW submariners from 5 or 6 years back because the stamped lettering is pretty good and you can put the MBK case back on the DW case and still have a case set.  The catch is the DW case backs came in two sizes, one oem spec in OD and thread size and one not.  As for MBK case band letters and numbers, I have a friend who can do very good work with an old Hermes engraver but he has stalled out for now.

Having owned various cartel, DW, MBK, Yuki, IG44, and Phong cases, I will say the MBK cases are extremely well made even if they are in need of some modification, but they may soon be a thing of the past when the remaining supply is out of circulation.  Hopefully an affordable replacement will show up.  Affordable  being the key word. 

"Am I the only one that notices a lot of mercedes hands used on builds are often skinny, and too long?"

Here is why my projects have non-gen-spec hands:

I saved a few sets of genuine hands over the years and they have been stored in the same place, forgotten for 20 years.  Then hand prices started shooting up on VRF and eBay so I took notice.  Meanwhile I got into Frankenstein 5513, 1680 etc, some with genuine movements.  So why not use the old take-off hands on them?  Because the hands are now worth 20% of what some of my F-steins are worth so I am using ST, Yuki etc hands.  I'll sell the genuine hands someday.

I ordered quite a few sets of hands when we had a parts account and iirc starting around 2005 or 2006 Luminova hands started showing up and the packages had 'LUMI' stamped on them.  I got two sets of 1019 hands and they are LUMI but at the same time a couple sets of 1675 hands were not marked so they may be tritium.  There is a set or two of submariner hands that are tritium for sure, one being a set that I put on a 14010 AK with a silver dial so I could actually see what time it was instead of just guessing.  I removed them before I sold it thank goodness.

LUMI or tritium?  I bought a little 'Smart Lab Smart Counter' Geiger counter that works with a smart phone but never got around to using it.  I ordered a GMC 300E mini Geiger Counter and will wait until it arrives to check the hands.

GMC 300  eBay item number:  162369833073

Smart Lab  eBay item number:  191473650729

"Now, when you say Clark's is better than Yuki, is that only for gen. fitting hands or only for Yuki ETA hands vs. gen, etc.?  In other words, if you have an ETA movement, is there a choice?"

Looks are one thing and fairly easy to make a choice but fitting the hands to the movement is another story.  I end up broaching at least half of the hands I get no matter who they come from.  As for Eta hands, you usually need to go with the best set you can find made for a tudor.  They still may need to be broached though.

Anyone in the market for quartz TAG Heuer 'time and date' watches and looking at replicas might also take a look at genuine watches for sale on TZ, eBay etc because many are not much $$ more than a replica now.  One example is an 85% to 90% reference number  995 706K  on TZ for $230USD (1-21-17).  It is a classic design and well worth the money.  Other models that can be found at bargain prices are the various TAG Heuer 2000 models.  I have paid as little as $40 for them needing a little bit of TLC.  They are quality everyday knock-around watches with a smaller profile than some of the current 'wrist burgers'.

http://www.calibre11.com/tag-heuer-2000-series/

"I am having trouble deciding between all gold and two toned."

An all goldtone watch will usually be plated and the gold will quickly wear away on sharp edges and bracelet links.

"I plan to wear this watch everyday for work and so what I am looking for is something that obviously looks great and works well, but that will be durable."

Two tone will hold up better.

"There are a couple of guys rocking two tone Rolex builds with solid gold mid links, bezel and crown. Genuine dial, hands and crystal."

I put a few sapphire 36mm DJs together with genuine dials, solid gold bezels/mid links/crown/swiss etas etc and they are as rugged and 'handsome' as genuine.  High gold prices have made them go from around $700 or $800 to $1500+ though.  I bought a nice tutone 15053 with 22 link jubilee for $1200 a while back so a genuine watch can be a better deal if you shop around.  Submariners are a different animal though.  One big problem is there are not many (any?) aftmkt gold parts for the newer ceramic bezel submariners...bezels, SEL bracelets and glidelock clasps are going to be very expensive.  Otoh DJ project watches are quite a bit cheaper than 16613 type submariners because DJ dials, bezels and bracelets are easier to find and cheaper to buy.  ST has 18k submariner bezels for around $400 and a ss/14k bracelet is close to $800 (it is hard to tell 14k from 18k if the 14k color is made to match 18k). 

So...a 16613 project could still be 'affordable'...maybe $2500 with a good case and swiss Eta but that is still a lot of $$.  You might look at it this way...if you wore it for 10 years with one $150 movement/gasket service figured in, you are looking at maybe $125 a year (only a little bit over $10 a month!) assuming the watch will sell for close to $1500 at the end of the run.  That is not bad at all.  In 10 years you would probably go through 3 plated $428 watches or two $938 'wrapped' watches that would be worth virtually nothing at the end of the run.  

"I was wondering if it is possible to convert my franken 16030 to a 16220?"

If the 16030 case is genuine...best bet is to do as alligoat said and go with a sapphire conversion.  Sapphire 162xx cases have taller bezels though.  They are made a little bit taller so they will reach up far enough to clamp the gasket tightly against the crystal.  Case necks are the same OD.