automatico

"The 14060 is smaller, thinner and lighter than a 16610."

"The 5512/5513 mid case is similar to a 14060 case."

Just now tried a DJ size sapphire crystal/gasket on a IG44 1680 genuine spec case...way too big as I knew it would be.  I did this only because a 16610 takes the same crystal as a DJ.

Next I tried a sapphire crystal and gasket for a 15200 OPD (286C) and it fits...a little bit loose, but not too loose.  Looks like the gasket may be thick enough to allow a 5512/13/1680 bezel to be pressed over it after making sure it will go (??).  I did not try it because this combo may need a custom bezel and I did not want to ruin a gasket.  So...a crystal/gasket combo for a no date sapphire Oys Perp/AK might fit...same as the 15200 crystal.  AK sapphire crystal p/n is 286 (28.6mm in diameter).  Someone could try this and see what's what...not me. 

One catch is the gasket is low so the crystal may not sit high enough to be very far above the bezel insert.  Another is if the bezel is too small and squeezes the gasket down far enough to chip the top edge of the crystal...the gasket is thin at the top.  Besides this, there would be no notches in the bezel action, it would be like a 5512/13/1680...and you still would need a 14060 dial to fit the 5512/13/1680 case.  

Q...will a crystal and gasket for a 14060 fit a 5512/13/1680 case?  A...No.  If they would fit it would make things too easy.

Catch 22:  The crystal for a 14060 is 295 (29.5mm diameter), same OD as a 295C DJ 16200 crystal but without the magnifier.  Sapphire no date explorers also use it. 

So...the 14060 may be smaller than a 16610 but the crystals are the same diameter...according to a parts book.

Edit:  as postd below by chefcook, the 14060 takes a 286 crystal.  The ST listing is incorrect.

"Doesn't Narikaa still sell his budget builds that are better than this one ?"

'REGMARINERS' are still for sale afaik and they look pretty good (to me anyway).

"Have you looked at Yuki watch recently?"

+1

I would also go with a Yuki dial like alligoat said...because they are affordable high quality dials.  Keep in mind you will need a dial made for a 34mm case because a regular 1016 dial will be too big.  I put a few 34mm AK/1002 case projects together with 15xx movements and Yuki dials but if you use an Eta movement the dial feet will need to be removed.  The 1002 and 5500 were all steel so I used black dials with white letters/markers and one AK was a 5501 with 14k bezel/crown so I used a black dial with goldtone letters and white markers.  They all had badly refinished dials so the aftmkt dials were an improvement imho...Purists will always disagree.

Dials can be reduced in OD but it is tricky because the paint tends to crack or flake off around the edges, besides gathering dust from sanding/grinding.  I made an aluminum disc to mount 15xx rolex dials on in order to grind them down in a lathe but it is touchy.  Eta dials are not quite as bad because you can mount the dial on an old Eta main plate and use it for a mount...still not easy though (saw this tip on the forum).  Also saw where one member bored holes in an Eta main plate to allow the rolex dial feet to pass through but this would require precision work.

So...the easiest way out is probably a Yuki 5500 Explorer dial made for a rolex 15xx with the dial feet removed.

"What was 50 USD worth back then?"

About $290.00

"In the early 70s I was making $5.25/hr and could still easily find 57 Chevies cheap and Ford T-Birds that needed some TLC for a Grand..."

Bought a dark metallic blue/white top 1955 Chevrolet ragtop in 1964 with 265, four barrel (Carter WCFB), and 'three on the tree' for $200. I made $1.25 an hour bagging groceries and borrowed the $$ from a local bank where a cousin was a loan officer. 

The Carter WCFB was a dud.  I called them 'Washout Carter Four Barrels' because when you stomped the gas, the car would jump ahead, the fuel would run up the back of the float bowl, the car would starve for gas (wash out), and fall on its nose.  Hot Rod guys put some sort of baffles in the float bowls.  Then the Carter AFB (Aluminum Four Barrel) started showing up.  They were Ok.  I called them Carter 'Awful F'n Big' four barrels.

I admit it...I might have been a Gear Head.

Everyone knows this by now...

Keep in mind a genuine crystal may not fit a replica watch because the case neck and crystal retaining bezel have to be the same spec as oem.  For this reason I usually go with aftmkt crystals on project watches...but this in itself can be a minefield of problems as everyone knows.

On fitting crystals:  When you find a combination that works...measure the case neck, crystal OD (after it has been pushed down on the case neck), and the crystal retainer bezel ID with a precision digital caliper and write them all down for reference.  If the crystal is a snug fit on the case neck it only takes about .1mm, .2mm or so difference between the crystal OD and bezel ID to make it tight.  A correctly fitting crystal should turn on the case neck with some resistance but not fall off.  If the crystal is a tight fit over the case neck it may crack.  If a crystal is loose on the case neck, it will be hard to determine if the crystal OD will work with the bezel ID without pressing the bezel down over it to see how it goes.  The crystal retaining bezel should slip down over the crystal skirt without chattering or popping when pressing it on...if it chatters or pops, look for cracks in the crystal skirt between the case neck and bezel with a 10x loupe to be sure it is Ok.  If the bezel can be pressed down over the crystal by hand, it is too loose and may work above water but the whole shebang can be knocked off fairly easily.  Whole shebang = both bezels and crystal, sometimes including a hand or two.

No glue.        Except in an emergency.

"While the C+I bracelets are probably not as desirable as the Swiss made bracelets, like everything else Vintage Rolex, they are not cheap. I have seen recently 20mm C+I bracelets in good condition selling for over 2000.00 USD. the 19mm bracelets are not as expensive, but ones in really nice shape are selling for 700-800 USD !!"

Good find!

Times sure have changed.  I remember in 1972 when 19 and 20mm C&I bracelets were $59 new at a rolex AD about 20 miles away and when I bought a new watch from them they gave me one free.  Another AD in our home town had similar bracelets with a coronet of a sort on the clasp but not signed rolex and they were $29.  I still have one somewhere (stretchy type), that I wore it on a 1603 DJ.  Iirc the stretchy models were a few bucks more.  They were hair pullers though, after wearing one for a week your arm would be slick as a high school Cheerleader's leg.     (Is it against the law now to say that?)

Here is one like it:   http://picclick.com/Vintage-Very-Rare-Rolex-Oyster-Style-Cromwell-Rivet-222300324810.html

"i wouldn't say they're the best. the links are too thin and polished, the clasp is from a 93250 stamped 93150, and the end link connector does not accept gen bars with out mods and needed the dremel mod to look more correct like two pieces"

True.

Another pretty good bracelet came on some 'noobmariners'.  Many had thick links with hollow mid links and good screws.  The main faults are:  1...they are SEL  2...have a half link  3...have wrong clasp marking/dive extension  4...marked 93250.  The SEL part is fairly easy to fix if you can pull the SEL links apart and substitute a proper last link to be used with hoods, same for the half link.  Find a good dive extension and clasp and away you go.  Not easy at all as I have done it a time or two and you also need a bunch of 'repjunk' to complete the project...clasp 'Z' blades, dive extensions, links etc.  The Z blades need to be changed not only because of the 93250 stamping but because most had tabs bent over the hinge pin in the Z bar where vintage bracelets had the pin pressed in.  It's a lot of trouble but maybe one possible fix...of a sort.

The last mid link that connects to the spring bar...you can use a solid link if necessary and just drill it out to 2mm.  They are solid but this will usually not be noticed and they will also keep the bracelet from folding under like can happen with some hollow links. 

"But alas, 93150 MBWs are no longer available!"

Along with the watches (afaik).  Sure would like to know who, when, and where the cases really came from.  If it was the guy 'Paul' got them from (from the guy's wife), the guy must have had a pretty good setup in order to make them. 

If it is p/n RMOSS-BC89, this link goes between the clasp and bracelet at the flip lock end.

"Star time sells connector pieces that might help."

If it is p/n  RMOSS-BC104  it is the wrong part, it goes between the dive extension and bracelet.  You might be able to grind it down to work because the thinner part is the same width as a mid link.  Here is the catch...the wide end is made for a 1.0mm press pin.

"...$139 with a swiss eta and it even had a working HE valve. The bracelet was hollow link and pretty nice - had the clasp with the Rolex crown on the side like this one."

A genuine example cost a little bit more but flyin' down the road with your arm out the window...they look exactly the same to me.        I got robbed!  I paid $159!                      

eBay item number:  221920434323

I had a few oyster type no name bracelets with end links like I needed so I used them.  They were the right size, about 8.7mm wide and 6.5mm long.  The tops are gently rounded and the undersides are made like a 'figure 8'.  If the bottom side is not made like an 8 to keep it in place, it can turn and lock the bracelet against the hoods. 

"It's strange that the neck size of the cartel case is so near gen.  But their bezel is so off and loose that they have to glue the insert.  My guess is that they make the midcase but purchase the bezel from someone?"

I know what you mean.  Genuine case necks are 28.2mm as are my MBK/Yuki/IG44 and cartel cases from 'Paul' (Abay) but some others are off.  DW is 28.1 to 28.15 making oem spec crystals and bezels too loose.  GS has 3 or 4 different T19 crystals and you can swap them around and sometimes get a good fit.

"Or....... It's faster and easier to fit the bezel parts if they are too big."

They might do this so they can slam them together by hand without a press...who knows?  My guess is they buy parts from various sources and do not care if they fit properly as long as they do not fall apart.  One run of 5513/1680 from Abay had the right size 28.2mm case neck with a 'short skirt' crystal glued to the case neck and they pushed a 'spring wire' type rotating bezel down over the crystal and the spring wire caught in the space below the crystal skirt and held the rotating bezel on...for a while.  I have about 10 like this from around 2005.  Other than the goofy bezels and the case back gasket groove cut in the case, they are pretty good.  For some reason they mounted the case back gaskets in the case like a vintage SD instead of the case back.

"First of all, the extension system inside the clasp is horrible.  What is a remedy? did anyone try to simply take it out and connect the bracelet straight to the clasp?"

My Frankenstein 5512/13/1680 project watches are made to mimic late 1960s/early 1970s models and I use folded oyster 7836 bracelets from 'Mary'...should be 9315 but that is all they had.  For the clasp, I use older model clasp caps with 8 holes in a row without a dive extension with notches crimped at the end to keep the inks under the clasp cap (like some genuines).  Later models did not come with folded bracelets so this is not an option with them.  I have seen quite a few older genuine submariners over the years with the dive extensions removed.  If you do not need them, they are just in the way.

"Secondly that end middle link which attaches to the end links, has this line cut don't know why, but it is a tell and it is annoying as it should not be there.  What is your remedy for this?" 

I change the mid links that connect to the spring bars at the watch to a hollow rounded type and do away with the 'figure 8' links that came on the bracelets...and go with WSO 580 hoods.   

"A gen bracelet is nice but nearly 800 dollars or more."

When you blow that much on a bracelet, it takes a lot of the fun out of owning a replica in the first place...imho.  Besides that, you see lots of replica bracelets/bracelet parts on older genuine watches so replica bracelets/parts abound in the real world.  We seem to worry more about genuine bracelets that the average watch guy...average, not an All Original! All Genuine! rolexnut.

I use #55 (1.3mm) because replica bracelets are usually out of spec and need the extra wiggle room.  Putting a slight bevel on the inside of each lug hole also helps guide the spring bar.  No bevels on the outside of the lugs.  Not ever.  Putting a couple layers of masking tape over the lug holes before drilling may keep shavings from scratching the lugs.  Poke a hole in the tape to make it easier to center the drill.  When a drill bit stops cutting, change the bit, do not force it. 

"For replacing the loose as hell cartel bezel, you can buy a Swiss made bezel and retaining ring combo on eBay.   I think it's the same as Clark's because you have to polish it."

Clark, watchman408 on eBay and ST are all the same.  I have had much better luck with these bezel kits than MBK, various cartel etc. 

watchman408 has one now, item number  122299989474  $79.00 free delivery

"Hmmm this whole 904L debate is getting old..."

+1

"Rolex has it's own foundry works and makes it's own 904L to it's own formula..."

The Hodinkee article says :  "Rolex owns its own foundry, where it creates its very own formulas for three different kinds of gold, and a proprietary steel compound – 904L."  Key words = 'where it creates its own formulas'

"Rolex most likely does not have its own foundry and likely buys in ingots." 

Some of their ads used to brag about them getting the steel from Sweden.  I can not see a dainty, sissified, snobby, PC little watch company with a big, ugly, dirty, noisy steel foundry out back.  Melting and mixing gold is one thing...steel is another.  After all, their entire yearly production uses less steel than a truck load of lawnmowers.  

'Famous 904L' is everywhere, I bought some scrap seamless 904L steam pipe to make bezels out of for a few bucks a couple years ago.

 "There are excellently replicated newer complete subs with complicated rehaut engravings but no one in China makes a decent older style oyster bracelet anymore? How do they not care about the demand which means money?"

That is a very good question!  After all, they took the time to copy the complicated modern glidelock 'hacksaw' clasp and that could not have been easy.

I have worn replicas doing some rough outside work and they have done Ok.  They all take a beating cosmetically with nicks, scratches, crystal and bezel damage etc.  Seems like the Asian 21 jewel models are the toughest mechanicals with swiss eta coming in second.  As for genuine rolex...broken balance staffs, a few broken rotor jewels, and a few tangled hairsprings, but that was when I was younger and more active.  In my experience the 3035 was the most fragile of the automatics but never wore a 1030 in rough conditions.  Parts were easy to get back then so a little internal damage did not matter very much like it does today. 

"I wonder if anyone knows where I could source a hollow midlink oyster with removable end links?"

They are hard to find because most replica bracelets have solid mid links and anyone who gets a hollow mid link bracelet tends to hang on to it.  Like I said in another post, the best 93150 I have came on an MBK 1680 but not all MBK watches had them.  Many of the F520117 16610 'Noobmariners' had very good hollow link bracelets but they were SEL type and had a half link next to the clasp and 93260 stamped on the last link.  It would be a hassle to convert one to an old style bracelet.  Read where some of the newer cartel 5513 etc had pretty good hollow 93150 bracelets but you have to buy the whole watch to get one and by the time you get one, they might have changed suppliers and the bracelets could be different.

 "Wonder if there are any other options for hollow midlink TT jubilee bracelets between the $75 riyi gold filled versions I see on eBay....and the $850 ST heavy link version that is passable?"

I would like to say yes but high gold prices have made them expensive.  That and the 'vintage rolex gold rush'. 

"Its phong im refering to. Did not find any 24-700-0 crown in blister but some other crowns were in blister and looked pretty much like the one i got. I agree with you that something seems off with the one i got in blister packing."

Ok, I had no idea they were doing this.  I have used a few TC crowns on projects but they came in TC marked packages.

Edit:  I just looked at Phong's crowns for sale and it states they are 'quality made', '316L steel' etc so they are replicas for sure...but they are not pictured in oem packaging.  It is a different ballgame if claimed to be genuine and offered in oem packaging when someone buys one in good faith.

"This made me curious and after comparing a few pictures of the blister box i found that a well known guy for replicating vintage parts sells rep crowns in blisterbox on his website that looks really close to the one i got."

Post the address of this guy if you do not mind.  I would like to see how close they are because most of my vintage parts are in green and white packaging...all genuine as it came from rwc.  Makes me wonder how much of this stuff is on eBay. 

I looked at a few used genuine 7mm crowns and they are crimped like the one in interaktiv's picture.

The crown pic you just posted in the package does not look too hot imho.  Is the base metal yellow tinted or silver tinted?  Yellow = brass = fake.  Silver = nickel silver, probably Ok but the cap looks bad.

"But is the 75 dollar complete bracelet Chinese I assume?"

It must be because the Italy made jubilees are specified as such.

"Why don't they sell a complete Italian made stainless submariner bracelet I wonder."

They used to but the 20mm Italy made oyster type bracelets must not be available now.  I still have one from a few years ago but it has solid mid links...it was about $99 iirc.

What is amazing to me is how close they are in appearance and the huge price difference for what you get.

If they are this close and the owner does not plan on wearing it in water...what is the real world advantage of owning the genuine article?  Downsides to the replica:  movement may not be reliable if it is an etaclone or genuine 'dirty swiss eta' (no experience with the various 3135 clones) - may have any of the other common replica ailments (we all know what they are).  The genuine watch has notable downsides imho:  expensive! - very high service and parts prices! - big lo$$ if dropped on concrete, lost, or stolen - you need to be careful when wearing it because it cost so much - you feel like you should wear it even after you get tired of it because it cost so much - everyone thinks it is a replica anyway.  

Discounting the pride of ownership that comes with the genuine watch...I see the replica as a winner and the genuine as a $$ loser if simply taken as two watches that look almost exactly alike (this being a replica forum after all).  If they both were $500 I would take the genuine watch of course.      

"Does anyone know what movement this is?"

Looks like a standard Seagull ST16 with a rlx type rotor and red top on the 'magic lever' wheel.  When clean and oiled they are rugged and hard to beat.  I have a couple made in their South Korea factory that seem to be a few steps above what comes in the average replicas we see.  The South Korea models are easy to spot because they have a finer overall finish and 'PUSAN CO SOUTH KOREA' stamped above '18 JEWELS UNADJUSTED AUTOMATIC' on the rotor.  My guess is yours has a spacer mounted outside of the main plate with 3035/3135 dial foot holes in it because the rotor OD is almost the same size as the movement OD on an unaltered movement.

"Many people lost their accounts due to profiteering."

We had an 'official' parts account in the early 2000s.  We did not order much because we did not need much.

They cancelled the account after one year because we "did not buy enough material to justify an official parts account".

One year later it was reopened for no reason.  We bought some crowns, crystals, hands etc (placed an order every 2 or 3 months) so we would not be accused of not buying enough material.

They closed the account again after one year because we "bought too much material compared to year before last" , and were 'selling parts 'out the back door'.  I still have almost all of the parts today.

One year later they opened the parts account again.

We made one small order shortly after being reinstated and along with the parts was a notice that they had closed the account "permanently"  (no reason).  We heard they closed most of the independent accounts in the USA around this time (2006/2007).

Frankensteins forever.  

Need to be very careful broaching the splines out after installation because if you remove just a hair too much metal the tube can be too thin and may twist off in the case when the crown is screwed down a bit too tight or break off from a hit.  Use a tapered cutting broach and remove a very small amount at a time until the crown tube just passes through without binding.  As soon at it goes through...stop cutting.  Drill bits in a pin vise will work only if you have a set with very small steps between sizes and start out with one that just barely removes any metal.  The final cut must be made with a bit that is the same diameter as the crown tube.  If your first cut is with a drill bit that is the same size as the crown tube it can start cutting at an angle and ruin the tube.  This is why a broach works best...they are self centering.  Most of these tubes are nickel silver and pretty soft so they are easy to cut.

If you get a watch repair guy to do this, make sure they know what they are doing.  Some will say  "I have done hundreds of them"  but have never seen one before and do not even have any broaches.