automatico

"For the same reason that an original Warhol print costs multiple millions of dollars or a new Ferrari costs hundreds of thousands - brand recognition, supply  & demand."

Right you are. 

Otoh, if I robbed a bank and had $1M in an environmentally friendly paper bag, I would buy a Sport Hog to make the getaway because a Ferrari would probably break down, a Warhol is not water resistant, and a rolex is not fast enough (-4/+6).

Characters with a Warhol or Ferrari hanging on their wall will not return my calls for some reason.  

"You didn't take into account that the US$ has declined significantly in value relative to the Swiss Franc over the past 45+ years. Over that time the exchange rate has roughly gone from 4.0000 down to 1.0000 (parity). So the dollar is now worth 1/4 of what it was in 1970-72."

I only took into account what (today's vintage) rolex watches listed for in USD (in the USA) when new vs what a similar model retails for now.  I am probably one of the few on the forum who was working full time when the 5512/13, 1600, 1680, 1016, 1019, V72 Daytona etc were for sale new in stores...they cost a lot back then but I could afford one if I wanted it bad enough, but looking back I bought the wrong models. 

Otoh, all the new models cost too much today for me to take seriously.  After all, why should a common steel DJ with maybe $50 USD in materials and a few hours in production (one year...Ha!) sell for almost as much as a Harley D Sportster?  It's insanity...imho.  

" I think you miss something, even when adjusted for inflation, old rolexes were cheaper when new than new Rolex prices today."

True.  I use an online inflation calculator to compare yesterday's prices to today's prices.  I bought a new manual wind 6430 Speedking on a lizard strap in 1972 for $115 and allowing for inflation it should retail around $1000 today (actually $662) but if it was still made today the same watch (with sapphire crystal) would probably retail for $3000 to $4000.  A steel DJ was $300 to $350 back then so today they should be around $2000 to $3000 but they are over $6k.

 http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

https://www.minus4plus6.com/PriceEvolution.php

For what it's worth...

In my experience cheapo digital calipers are Ok for measuring cases, dials etc but may not be accurate enough to use for machining parts, fitting bezels, crystals, and other things that require precise measurements.  I own a couple sets of Harbor Freight calipers and they may or may not give the same reading on the same part over and over so I use Mitutoyo calipers for precision measurements.  I have a steel standard made to calibrate mechanical micrometers and the HF digicals will not give the same exact measurement of the block every time but the Mitutoyo calipers will.

"This guy, Charles Ginault, obviously would have great insight into a project such as this."

For sure he knows what he is doing.  I noticed an old WISECO piston sign on the wall of the machine shop so that moves him up a notch or two more. 

My garage/junk shop has a WISECO decal or two, Darrell Bassani header poster, DENCO H2 poster, Tony Nicosea (MC drag racer) magazine article, autographed pic of Evil Kinevil doing a wheelie on a Sportster (saw him at a car dealer promo), Chris Carr Kawasaki H2 poster, Lynyrd Skynyrd 'Street Survivors' poster, Bo O'Brochta (MC drag racer) business card from when I met him while he worked for Suzuki of Jacksonville.  I have a one four barrel (Carter AFB) aluminum intake manifold from a 409 Chevrolet for a door stop.    

WISECO = motorcycle gearhead.  

"Hate these catalogs."

Me too. They remind me that I bought a new DJ for about the same price a new V72 Daytona was in the same showcase.

VRM had a 1959 catalog for sale and it shows some bracelets of that era.  Since some of these bracelets may have not been exclusive to rolex maybe they can be found on other brands of vintage watches today.  The styles without hoods might be easier to find and they would be good for early explorer, AK etc projects.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/message/1471783110/FS-+Rare+1959+Rolex+Oyster+catalogue+featuring+6541%2C+6542%2C+5504+Explorer%2C+DD%2C+DJ+etc.+%26gt%3B%26gt%3B%26gt%3B

"Swiss is worth the money. Go with swiss, you'll be glad you did."

+1

Otoh if I had to choose an etaclone, Seagull would probably be the first choice.  The main problem with swissetas in replicas today is many are old movements in need of repair. 

I took an etaclone (unknown brand) apart and checked it over and it looked good but was dry of oil in some spots and flooded in others.  I bought it because it is a simple (non adjustable 24H) GMT type and I wanted the GMT parts for a project using a swisseta 2836...it uses the exact same parts that were used 10 or 15 years ago on swisseta GMT conversions.  I did not c/o the clone or stick it back together but put the etaclone balance complete in a swisseta 2836 and it took off and keeps time about as good as it did with the eta balance.  I changed it out as a unit, balance bridge and all so one side has the Chinese shock device and the other has the swiss device.  The balance staffs appear to be exactly the same and the running rate is very good in all positions.  I did c/o both balance jewels and the escape wheel/pallet stones.  The truth is I was surprised at how good it runs.

"Yeah but aren't there pretty good cases that can be modified into a pretty good 5513? I thought MBW cases and even the new cartels were pretty good except for the crown guards and some other finishing details. 1675 cases are all way to thick and that's something that's not easily fixed."

I say the best way (low $$) is to use what is available and forget about trying to have cases made.  If you are not versed in the ins and outs of case making, the learning curve may be very steep and expensive.  Case and case back threads are not easy at all to cut for example and someone who is a whiz at cnc machining/shaping a case may be lost when it comes to cutting threads.  Mirror polishing case sides and bevels on lugs are probably also not in the cnc machinist bailiwick.  These cases look simple but they are not.  A $50 replica submariner case may be the product of a $5 million operation that makes cases for swiss oem, mushroom brands, contract watches etc as well as replicas.  The steel replica submariner cases that were used in some $75 replicas that I have are stamped 'E. Gluck' inside the case and E. Gluck is a HUGE outfit.  Take my word for it.  Or not.

http://egluck.com/

Otoh, if someone wants 1000 cases, fly to Guangzhou and shop around for a connection to have them made...pay your $$...and take your chances.  I have a friend who used to have private brand watches made so I know what I am talking about.  More or less.

Imho what members should be looking for are:    1...An affordable case that is close to begin with.    2...Someone who can detail the case, drill lug holes, machine a proper case tube seat etc at a reasonable cost.    3...Someone who can engrave letters/numbers that are accurate to oem.

I hate to be a downer but above all...I am a realist.        Sorta.

"Inserts can fade for a number of reasons. Even the back side. It's not just from sun/UV exposure."

You are probably right, I never paid much attention until ratty insert prices went nuts and by then I had sold/gave away most of my old case parts.  Since the front and back of the insert for sale was the same color it looked fishy to me.  I just now looked in my rolexjunk and have another GMT 1675 bezel insert that has almost no blue left on it and the red is light pink...the watch was all original and made in 1968.  The underside is a lot darker than the front although not nearly as dark as the insert on the 1675 mentioned above that is faded quite a bit on the front side but not too much on the back.  I get a kick out of the insane prices on VRM for parts I gave away or threw away because no one wanted them a few years ago...wish I still had them.  I paid $325 for the 1968 model GMT and $825 for the mid 1970s model.  Times have changed.

Edit:  The 1675 mentioned in the first post was made in 1979, not mid 1970s.  Amnesia.

"Well it sold in 12 hours or so. Guess the buyer liked the bleach job."

I was all set to offer $40 plus postage. 

There is a sucker for every stick.  

I wonder why the underside is faded like the top?  I have a mid 1970s 1675 with the original faded bezel and it is a richer color on the back side.

Maybe the sun shined under this one.           $3000!! 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/message/1471402613/FS+PART-+Rolex+GMT+1675+Gorgeous+Fuchsia+Bezel+Insert

"I wonder if one could add a 36 mm date just dail inside this case."

The OQ uses the same size dial as a DJ. The sapphire crystal, crown, and a lot of other parts are the same as a DJ and the main plate is a modified 3035 plate.  The catch today is parts are insanely expensive and the movements are getting old causing $400+ circuit boards and motors to go $outh.  We call them 'rolex light bulbs' because you never know when they will go out.  I would rather have a 214 Spaceview for $200 or $300 and take my chances because A-tron hummers beat OQ tickers as far as Electro Classics are concerned.  Imho.   

If you had a complete OQ case, dial and bracelet...a $25 Eta 955.xxx etc, would be an improvement over an OQ movement (considering the $$) because of the ever present light bulb problem with an OQ.

"If your watch guy doesn't know that it's an eta or an eta clone, you probably ought to get a better watch guy!"

Maybe.  Watch guys who work 'in the trenches' (fools like me for example) are far more likely to see an etaclone than a traditional old school watch mechanic.  My 'watch guy' friend works on vintage RR grade PW, Vacheron, AP, LeCoultre, Longines, Omega, Gruen, rolex etc (rolex only if you are a friend or relative) and has never seen an etaclone but I told him about them.  I doubt he has seen an eta 28xx for years except maybe in a Tooter, Mido Commander etc.  (I threw in Mido Commander because I have one)   

Many high line repair guys have probably never seen an etaclone, A7750 or Asian 21 jewel.  

Lucky them.  

I do not know anything about DSSD replicas but the older 1665/5514 type watches I got waaay back had working HEV made to oem specs that sealed up, but they leaked everywhere else without a gaskets-crystal-case tube-crown tune-up.  Bought a genuine HEV set and compared it to the replica and they were identical.  Have a replica 16600 SD and it has a 'dead end' HEV with no hole inside the case so there is no way it can leak...at the valve anyway.  Otoh, some have a hole drilled all the way through the case but the valve is just a plug pressed into the case from the outside.  They usually do not leak...usually.  You can always take the movement/dial out of the watch and take it diving to see what happens.

I always test my 'valuable' WR watches without the mvt/dial a couple times because I have had a few crystals blow out of the case because of leaks when the pressure was released on my souped up Bergeon 5555-98.  'Souped up' = a Schrader valve where the release valve used to be so I can pressurize the dome using an air tank.  It will easily stand 100 psi, maybe more but I do not go above 100.  100 psi = somewhere around 7atm iirc 

"Since it's illegal to create 1:1 replicas technically..."

The patents are long dead on vintage rolex 5512/13, 1680 etc so making one that is 100% accurate to genuine is perfectly legal as long as it is not signed/trademarked.  That is how ST and others get by with selling submariner and DJ cases.  Otoh, super accurate trademarked cases are...expen$ive!...as we all know.

The things that are hard to get right for non CNC shops would be the inner/outer bezel fit, proper flutes on the bezel, threads on the case and case back, lug hole location, inner machining for the movement to fit correctly, and case back stamping and engraving...stamping and engraving the rolex logo being the only thing that is illegal.  My guess is many 'specialists' buy what is fairly close on the open market with stampings and then make it very close.

I have a thread cutting device with automatic feed on my miniature lathe and with the proper cutter bit, case and case back threads can be precisely cut.  It is nerve wracking but entirely possible.  My guess is the case and case back threads in non CNC shops are done with a device similar to what I have if they do not buy parts already threaded.

With a bit of practice, most of us could turn a case that is 'pretty close' into one that is 'very, very close' provided the stampings and engravings are good to begin or we have someone who can do the engraving.  Case back stampings would be the hardest of all and it needs to be done before the case back is finish machined/polished.

One reason I bought a few DW cases is that for the price, they have pretty good case back stamping and I use them on MBK cases.  There was a catch (always is) and it turned out DW cases came with two different case/case back thread sizes no matter if supposed to be a 5513 or 1680 case and the case back thread sizes are random.  Besides that, all DW cases are 1680 spec even if signed 5513.  One size is oem/MBK spec and the other is a bit bigger.  MBK cases are laser etched and look pretty bad compared to a stamped case back so DW case backs spiff them up a little.

"I think Phong's 16610 is true 1:1 but his vintage stuff is probably a rep of a rep of a rep that he "hand-finishes" using pictures (not actual side by side gen)."

They probably are.

"I think you are probably overestimating the value of a properly made, blank 'Rolex' case..."

I have always believed a $1200 case is just a $10 case that was pretty close to oem to begin with that has been detailed.   Fixed it.  

"Other than the dimensions, the only difference between the case used for a cheap Silex Sub & 1 of Phong's or MQ's cases is the money these aftermarket parts sellers charge."

Agree.

"like Bobandshawn says with modern technology it shouldn't be difficult to scan a good gen case and turn out copies all day long."

I agree and it sounds good but 'highoeyazmuhudee' gave it a shot and iirc it was not easy at all.  The case makers always seem to get close but not exactly what you want (by accident or by design) forcing a V1, V2, V3 and on and on.  New cartel, MBK, or Yuki is probably the route to go until someone starts cranking out exact cases for $199.  DW had '1680' cases that would accept genuine movements and dials for $199 or so but they were not real close to oem on the outside and the crystal neck was just a hair too small.  They were made to a fairly high standard but they were just out of spec.

"I really don't understand this whole dilemma. I was a machinist for over twenty years (from before CNC was the norm). Every dimension today is programmed into the computer - I just can't understand how there can be this much "hit or miss" variation."

This is something I have always wondered about too. Ten or twelve years ago a guy who travelled around the southern USA selling replicas always had maybe 100 cheapo stainless steel 16610 type submariners and they were all exactly the same. Not true to oem maybe, but they all were exactly alike in every detail, every time he showed up. This proves it can be done and done cheaply...his watches were $50 or so each and a bit less in quantity. I still have maybe 10 submariners and 30 or 40 DJ left from back then that I keep for projects with Raffles Time sterile dials etc. The submariner cases have lug holes and the DJ have 'no hole' cases similar to what JMB offers but made for Eta 2836 instead of 2824 and come with DG 28xx, Seagull ST6D, and ST16 (no case clamp grooves though).

Fast forward to 2016...why not take a genuine example of a 5513, program the measurements into a CNC setup and crank cases out for a few bucks each? If they are very close to genuine to start with there would be very little detail work. I have always believed a $1200 case is just a $100 case that was pretty close to oem to begin with that has been detailed.

If a $1200 case still has to be detailed after it is purchased, why not just buy a Yuki case to begin with and detail it...or a $200 cartel watch? From what I have seen, the 'unfixable' tells are the case back stamping and engraving between the lugs anyway, not the basic contour of the case. I am perfectly happy with Yuki cases. Heck, I even like DW cases...wearing a DW '1680' right now with 1570, Yuki dial etc. Put it on because the date was right. I'll see how long I can stand to wear it (automatics are a real hassle compared to an Accutron II).  

"Nice thanks rick! Been checking out clarks ebay site, cant seem to find bezel assembly..."

Try this:

eBay item number:   122054870644

"As others have said, Phong is a hit-or-miss affair."

Imho most of the characters we have to deal with in this goofball hobby are this way.  DW for instance.  In my experience Yuki seems to be the most consistent and reliable, not the highest grade maybe, but dependable.  Otoh, I have a Phong 1655 case from 4 or 5 years ago that is first class but that is the only Phong case I ever had. 

In general, if someone wants something done right...they have to learn to do it themselves, dbane bevels for instance.  I say this because anyone who wants extraordinary work should not expect it from someone who turns out good work one time and shoddy work the next.  Frankenstein builders must also come to terms with the fact that they can not make a genuine watch using replica parts...case, dial, and bracelet come to mind, not to mention clone movements.  The watch may appear to be genuine but it is not, and in reality it really makes little difference until it is put up for sale.  Otoh again, I have noticed many posters on the 'Serious Collector' forums (VRF etc) are getting more suspicious every week and are not as sure as they used to be in knowing if their precious vintage watch is 100% genuine or maybe only 90% genuine because the lines are rapidly getting blurred by higher quality replica and generic parts.

edit 8-6:  "So this man ask $$$ for random bad cases..."

Anyone could see those shotgun barrel lug holes from 2 feet away.  When someone worries about one of their projects with a $200 case not being as close to genuine in appearance as they would like...just remember $1200+ cases can turn out to be like this one.

"Also, the lughole locations can be somewhat inconsistent."

I find this in replica cases from many sources.  I have to resort to curved spring bars, reshaped hood tops, inner tubes being removed etc...it's all hit or miss.  That's why I bore lug holes to 1.3mm...so curved spring bars will not be in a bind.

"maybe this is the way they come from vietnam, where I suspect his factory is."

Probably.  I wonder if this is where Yuki cases come from? 

I'm pretty sure DW cases came from J C Whitney.   

"Just finished my 5500 (1965, gen) with Explorer dial."

Looks good! I made one out of a ref 1002 (1-64, cal 1560), Yuki dial, ST hands.  Hardest thing to find was a crystal with rounded top edge.  Used a bezel from a JMB tooter case, exact fit.

I always liked retro styles over modern styles and this Oris scores a hit imho...not enough that I would buy one but maybe enough to encourage me to dig out an old dive watch of a similar style and wear it a day or two.  Maybe a 1960\1970 Wittnauer like this:  

https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/watches/wrist-watches/wittnauer-stainless-steel-geneva-divers-model-wristwatch/id-j_1578563/  

I have a pair just alike, one slow set and one quick set.  (The Wittnauer in the link is $1850...I paid $1USD or the slow set and $30USD for the quick set in the early 1990s)

"...I've rarely come across a metal banded sports watch that can compete with my fetish for vintage Rolex until now."

I like rolex 5512/13 and 1680 styles along with Zodiac Sea Wolf, vintage Bulova, Aquadive etc but the Sea Wolf has a snap back and I never liked that.  Have an old Hamilton two crown 'compressor' but the trit hands and markers are getting fuzzy so I do not wear it.  Bought a semi-retro Bulova Accutron II 'Snorkle' 96B210 a few weeks ago and really like it.  It's a hair over 43mm across the middle, 47mm lug tip to tip, 13.5mm thick, and 22mm between the lugs.

Nice!  Always liked that model.  Also like the name 'SuperOcean'.

"I blame eBay for the inflation of Rolex parts."

Yeah eBay is partly to blame but RWC is the main culprit no doubt. I also blame VRF for some of the inflated vintage parts prices because it is basically just a 'gentleman's' rolex parts mart' but they will skin you alive (in a gentlemanly manner) if you do not shop around. For later stuff (3035/3135 era), eBay and VRF are close to the same looks to me. All the 'bargains' I have snagged in the past couple years came from eBay. For example, a nos complete 1570 autowind assembly for $305.00 rotor and all (saw one 'like new' on VRF for a 1520 at over $500), a 1530 aw bridge in fine condition for $22.50, super nice no corrosion 5500AK case for $118.00, rolex 1570 balance complete for $153.00, nos 1665 complete helium valve assembly for $48, and a few other odds and cods.  Oh yeah...and a new with B/P Invicta (!!) steel 'Pro Diver' swiss Eta 7750 chronograph ref. 12182 for $316, less than a new movement. Hee Haw!  What the heck am I going to do with it? I sure ain't gonna wear it 'cause it is too big...and it has a huge white strap. White!

https://www.invictawatch.com/watches/detail/12182-invicta-pro-diver-men-47mm-stainless-steel-blue-stainless-steel-blue-dial-7750-automatic

1520 aw assembly:   http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/message/1470237490/FS-+Cal.1520+Auto-Wind+Module%2C+Complete%2C+Near+Mint

"If you talk to the 'right' people, you can get parts at reasonable prices."

Yep and I do not know the right people any longer except misiekped and he helped me out a time or two.

As for Eta, they may have to soften their NPFU stance in order to get rid of excess inventory.  All the swiss watch companies show teeth, guts, and nuts during good times but when the bottom falls out of sales they cry like little babies. 

I cry crocodile tears for them. Not!  They can drown in their own Moebius as far as I am concerned.