automatico

If it is the same one as on eBay...$120 + $20 shipping is a lot for a $12 bezel and a nickel's worth of bleach.

Otoh the same guy has one of these inserts in an aftmkt bezel kit for 'only' $350 + $20.

Bargains of the week.  imho     

The 1570/5 date wheel is held in place by the date index spring aka 'date jumper' and the jewels/metal discs around the inside edge of the date wheel spacer.  It is so simple that one look will be enough to see how it fits...much easier to r/r than an ETA 28xx.

http://watchguy.co.uk/service-rolex-1601-calibre-1570/

In the first picture showing the date side of the movement with the date at 22...the 'date jumper' is at 4 on the date wheel.  You have to look close to see it.  The 'date jumper' supplies enough tension to the date wheel to keep it in place under the two metal discs at 1 and 10 in the picture.  The small round disc on the end of the 'date jumper' has a screwdriver slot in it to turn the disc one way or the other to center the date number in the date window.

'Gold wrapped' is a new term for what used to be commonly called 'gold filled' and can be from a few microns to 100 microns (or more) thick while some products labeled 'gold wrapped' are just heavy gold plated.  Most 'gold filled' products are gold covered on both sides of the base metal where a lot of 'gold wrapped' products are only gold covered on one side.  Twenty microns is not much as many higher grade watch cases are marked '20 microns gold plating' but 10 microns or less is the norm today.  Twenty microns will usually last 5 to 10 years depending on wearing conditions and 10 micron probably half as long.  Plating on sharp edges is usually the first to wear away.  Most modern cheap watches are 'flash plated' when using real gold and you can sometimes rub it off with a Flit cloth or a shirt sleeve.

The bottom line is the useful life of a 'gold wrapped' product depends on how thick the 'wrapper' is.  

http://artisanplating.com/measuring-layer-thickness-on-gold-plated-surfaces/

I encountered this with a few 'Big Time' mail order/internet genuine watch dealers and to put it bluntly...I wore their sorry ass out until I got my $$ back.  They all tried to play dumb...so I 'educated' them.  There is no excuse for deception. 

Stupidity might be the one exception.  

They list for $89.95 and I have an order almost ready to go so if you want one I can include it in the order but can not guarantee it will make it to France...but it probably will.  Any discount I get on the parts will come off the actual shipping cost.  These bezels are matte finished and need to be polished but it is very easy to do.  They have the GS PA 462-66 crystals too...about $10 each.  No guarantee it will all fit together on your watch though.

WSO parts are sometimes hit or miss as far as proper fit is concerned.

rolojack...that is one fine looking watch!

"I love the cartel 5513 but I'm frustrated they have perfect case neck size but then the bezel itself is out of spec so the insert is glued instead of pressure fit.  So you end up having to buy an entire bezel assembly even though the case neck is correct...."

IF  the case neck is oem spec 28.2mm and IF  you need a new bezel assembly...here is what I found (usually)  works:  GS PA 462-66 crystal and ST/Clark etc bezel kit IF  the ID of the inner bezel is 30.2mm.  The 28.2mm case neck and 30.2mm inner bezel will not crack the crystal when pressing it on because it is not a real tight fit on the crystal while at the same time the crystal will not pop off or leak in day to day service (although I have not tested one below about 5 atm/70 psi).  GS crystals are precision made and always the same spec unlike much of the inconsistent junk scattered all over the internet.  The PA 462-66 is a domed crystal that has the sidewall coming straight up about 1.7 to 2.0mm above the bezel insert.  You also have to make sure the bezel washer does not cause the rotating bezel to bind.  The washer needs to fit over the small lip on the inner bezel (if there is  one, it is there to keep the sharp washer away from the crystal) while not sticking out over the outer edge of the inner bezel or it will bind the rotating bezel.  Many (if not most) aftmkt bezel washers are out of spec in my experience.

I have tried this same setup with a GS PA 462-67 crystal and the inner bezel was too tight.  Also measured a couple MBK inner bezels and they were both 30.15mm id...not much difference but they can be pretty tight with the GS PA 462-66 crystal.  Matter of fact, I broke a new PA 462-66 with a MBK inner bezel on an MBK case a few days ago.  It leaked and I had to look down through the outer edge of the crystal with a 10x loupe under bright light to see the hairline cracks.  I found that ST/Clark rotating bezels will accept oem spec inserts and they snap in correctly...many aftmkt inserts and insert seats in bezels are out of spec.

"Looks 21j"

Yep.  Miyota 82xx clone, DG, NN etc.  Not too bad if you get a good one. 

"If you don't care about the engraving which will say 1680,all the modder needs to do is fit a 5513 dial and a 1520 or 1530? The case should take it."

You would run into trouble with the 5513 dial being too small (26.0mm dial and 26.2mm dial opening) and a 1520/30 would be too thin for the 1680 case.  You would need to use a movement with a date wheel spacer, date movement center wheel, and canon pinion.  It would be an expen$ive project.  Probably cheaper to go with an 18k aftmkt modern submariner case with 3135 or something similar.  There used to be quite a few of them around when gold was more reasonably priced.

"The Dial is 26,0 mm in diameter and the rehaut opening is 26,2mm... So there is a gap of 0.1 mm, which doesn't look right for me."

I remember reading somewhere that the dial window opening on the PCG 5513 was oversize and the edge of the dial showed through.  I looked in my 'favorites' and could not find it though.  It might have been on VRF, not sure.  Phong is probably right on this but it needs some research before sending the case back.

Here is a picture that appears to show the edge of the dial between 5 and 7:   http://hypebeast.com/2012/2/retrospect-1961-rolex-crown-guard-submariner-5512-chronometer-version

Here are some more good pictures:   http://www.watchprosite.com/?page=wf.forumpost&fi=732&ti=829288&pi=5604248

Here it is:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1468292473/last-1468326320/View+All

"I have never pulled a stunt like that and never would."

I admit to being jaded.  After 40 years trading watches I have seen the underbelly of this 'hobby' up close and it ain't pretty.  Most of the members on this forum are a different breed (a much nicer group) from the 'serious' watch guys I used to come in contact with. 

 Heard these lines hundreds of times:  "All I need is just one part to get it running, help me out."  "I would like to have that watch to wear, make me a deal on it."  "Runs great, I just had it serviced."  "All it needs is a battery."

Rule #3:  Watchmakers make watches.  

"Same thing with parts, if one can source parts to modern or vintage parts no matter what he paid for it, the demand for it is there and if the people that want it decide they're ready to pay..."

True.  Fifteen or twenty years ago I bought about 100 new rolex crowns in the event parts became hard to get (and they did)...5.3mm and 6.0mm steel were $20, gold 5.3mm and 6.0mm were $35, steel 7.0mm were $35 while gold 7.0mm were $75.  If I sell one today I will ask the market price.  Why?  Because if I sold them at or near cost as 'favors' to watch guys, they would likely end up on eBay for a whole lot more $$.  It's a fact of life.

Rule #1:  There are no friends in the mart. 

Rule #2:  Never discount an item no one really needs.  

I looked all over the 'net with no luck before I bought some from WSO.  I bought a 'six pack' package so it made the cost for each set a little bit lower but still a lot of $$ imho.   I used a set on an MBK 5513 and they were pretty close but the curved tops had to be ground down a hair where they meet the case so the spring bars would go into the lugs.  You also have to be careful not to break the tubes loose from the hoods because they are not soldered as good as tubes in genuine rolex hoods.  Someone who is good at silver soldering could stick them back on if they did snap off.

Example of silver soldering:    https:  //www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2wYgQtPg4g    Remove the space between https: and the rest of the address to complete the address.

Decide what model you want (I vote for 5512/13), get a few samples from the maker, pick the best one, and go from there with minor changes if needed.  Starting from scratch leaves too much room for miscommunication and error imho.

What to look for:  Holes in lugs not too close to ends, top or bottom edge (especially if they need to be drilled out)...oem specs on crystal neck, case tube threads, dial window/dial seat, all bezel parts, case back etc...Decide if to be made for ETA 2824, 2836 or rolex 1520/70 or 1575 date...If made for  ETA 2824, the rolex 1520 will be a close fit provided the case is machined for the larger 12.5 ligne rolex movement (ETA 2824/2836 is 11.5 ligne)...If made for ETA 2836, the rolex 1575 date movement will be a close fit...If the case is made for a 12.5 ligne movement, a spacer can be used with an ETA.

...or you could just get them to remake the standard MBK 5512/13/1680 case with proper specs inside the case.  Read the MBK sticky above for details.

There are a LOT of details to be attended to before ordering cases.  I figure they should go for about $100 each because you can buy a new complete cartel watch with 21J movement, bracelet and all for a little over twice that much.

Get a firm price up front or be prepare to get robbed.  A friend had private label watches made in China (cases/bracelets/dials from China with swiss ETA movements) and I heard all about how hard it is to do business over there.  He finally had to hire an 'insider' from Switzerland to travel back and forth and make all the arrangements.

I have put quite a few Frankenstein 5512/13/1680 together along with an mostly completed 1655 and can give an approximate total of what they cost me.

The 5513s made with DW cases, ST bezel kits, GS crystals, TC tube/crown or ST tube/TC crown with Yuki dial/hands or ST hands and genuine 1520 or 1570 ended up at $1400 to $2000 in parts.  The movements are c/o with new mainsprings and anything else they need.  If the movement needs many parts at all  it will jack the price very quickly.  Of course my labor is free to me and this includes the time and headache of making thin spacers out of aluminum flat washers to go between the dials and cases because DW cases are made for 26.5mm dials.  The one DW 5513 that came in around $1400 was lower because I got the movement for $600.  Most raw 1520/1570/1575 movements cost $900 to $1100 now unless I stumble on a rough watch at a low price.  Also made up a couple DW 1680 and they both came in around $2000.  If I sold one for $2000 there would probably be a loss on the next one (using the $2000 to pay for it) because of ever rising prices and less choice in cases.

Same watch with a MBK case will cost $200 to $300 more and may or may not use an ST bezel kit but will have a GS crystal and TC tube/crown or ST tube/TC crown.  You never know how the MBK bezel parts will match up after changing the crystal and most of the time I use a ST kit.  Before it is over they usually end up costing $2000 or maybe a little bit more including a pretty good bracelet, WSO 580 hoods etc.  Same watches as above with Yuki cases will run about $400 more.  Yuki cases are a lot easier to work with compared to the DW or MBK cases...read the sticky above and the various posts about these projects.

The 1655 sunk the boat because rounding up all the GMT parts ended up costing a lot more than expected.  The Phong 1655 case was purchased slightly used from a member at a discount.  This watch is now over $3000 and not finished...still needs c\o and putting together plus a few details.  Pretty sure I have all the GMT parts now.

The prices above reflect the bare bones cost of putting one of these watches together not counting the postage, hassles, wrong parts etc.  If someone furnishes all the parts they can usually count on $200 to $500 labor cost to put it all together depending on if everything fits together, light mods etc, and if the movement needs c\o and parts or not.  The only insurance when buying one of these watches is the word and reputation of the seller/builder.

In other words...they ain't cheap.  

I am not a fan of etaclones either but some of the Guy's info is not spot on imho.  Others may chime in.

"He mentioned that the escapement wheel is of poor quality, wearing out quicker and the pallet fork is also of substandard quality which needs replacing sooner than your coffee money in a supermarket."

The escape wheel and pallet fork are two parts that hardly ever wear out in a watch.  The pivots/arbors may wear from being dry or too soft but the pallet stones and escape wheel teeth are very tough.  Most watch companies do not even oil the pallet arbors, they just run them dry.  Oil on the escape wheel teeth/pallet stones lubricate and cushion the load so there is very little wear.

"The balance  hair spring is ok but nothing special as it too has a frequency of premature wearing."

Hairsprings usually last as long as the watch or until they get bent or tangled, there is very little (if any) wear on them.  Old 1960s Timex mechanical watches that sold for $30 or $40 had hairsprings that probably cost 20 cents a dozen and they would run for 10 or 12 years.  Old cheapo swiss made watches with low ball 17 jewel manual wind movements had the same track record of running on and on.

"What worries me is that some of these clones also have stampings and all the hallmarks of genuines often making them more indistinguishable from the real McCoy eta."

Putting ETA hallmarks on etaclones is a big problem.  Most people can spot a replica watch but not too many can spot a signed etaclone movement and for this reason there is a lot of info on this forum about how to tell them apart.  The first 2836 etaclone I ever saw was probably 8 or 10 years ago and it was a SeaGull with fancy finishing.  It ran just fine but the winding weight fell off right away.  It was an easy fix (rotor bearing came out of the weight) and as far as I know it still runs but I have not seen the guy I traded it to in a few years...if it quit, I would have heard about it.  I do have one etaclone...an ETA signed 2836 with non adjustable GMT conversion in a new 16570 explorer II, it is the only etaclone I have and it runs fine but since the watch is new and not real easy to find since the newer models came out, I have never worn it.  I could swap the etaclone for a new swiss ETA 2836 with the GMT conversion from the clone and make a very good watch out of it...if I was not so lazy.

Here are some pictures of an old USA made C&I (aka Cromwell) bracelet that has connecting pieces different from the average swiss rivet oyster bracelet.

https://www.timekeeperforum.com/forum/threads/rolex-usa-c-i-riveted-bracelet.4856/

Another one on eBay, item number  262489232104  It's rare though, the guy wants $5k.  I paid $35 for mine.  It must be rare too...I couldn't find it just now to look at the end pieces.    

"Is this the shape they copied?"

Close but the one I have has the hoods made in one piece mounted on a round 'washer' type bracket.

"Can you share with us how the end links are mounted on this case?"

Maybe I can help...I have a 'Daytona' with the 'higher grade' case similar to the one in the pictures (with sec at 6 Asian movement) that came with a leather strap.  The hoods (end links) are solid and thick, one piece (not sheet metal), and are mounted between the bezel and case.  In other words, both hoods are made on a one piece 'washer' that is mounted between the bezel and case...then the bezel is pressed down over the crystal gasket same as genuine clamping the washer/hoods to the case.  If you can see a space between the outer edges of the hoods and the lugs, it is made this way.  Hoods on modern solid gold genuine Daytonas are mounted the same way.  Hooded cases and bracelet cases are not the same.  Look at sharp pictures of a genuine hooded gold Daytona on a strap and you can see the slight space between the hoods and the lugs.

'Lower grade' steel replica Daytona cases with straps and hoods usually have the hoods made with the mid case and they are formed when the case is stamped out.  They usually do not stand out from the case as far as on the case in the pictures.

"But if I understand, even the new cartel needs a good deal of shaping to be right.  The body/lugs need slimming, and is missing a beveled edge.  The crown guards are still not perfect, and there are probably other issues as well.  Asking the source to fix this will not work.  And 1200 dollar phongs are not consistent."

True.  I figure an out of spec $225 cartel case needing modification is a better value than an out of spec $1200 case that needs modification.  I would rather botch the $225 case if I screw up.

The Frankenstein 1680 that I wear now and then is in a DW case and the rounded case sides really bothered me until I saw a 'high mileage' genuine 1680 with rounded case sides on the 'net that looks just like it.  Now I can enjoy the DW for what it is...a replica that has a genuine counterpart out there somewhere.  Ha! 

Here is another one with rounded sides for only $10599:  eBay item number  232075838151  The DW case looks better.

After looking at denimhead's post  "Tell me what you see......5513 Fans"  I would just go with a lightly modified 'new cartel' case and be happy with it while saving $1200 or $1500.  I do not know if a genuine movement will work in one or if they are closer to '5513 spec' or '1680 spec' though.  My guess is 5512/13 spec.  If it is closer to 5512/13 spec, then that is what I would make one into.  It's for sure you can make a real nice 5513 type watch using a Yuki dial and Eta 2846 etc judging from the watch in denimhead's post.

I like a 5512/13 better than a 1680 because they do not have a date wheel overlay to screw with or date mag position problems.  I made up a couple Frankenstein 1680 using rolex 1575 movements and will say the slow set dates are a real hassle in today's world (today's world = owning more than three watches).  If you park a slow set rlx 1575 powered watch for a week or two and start it back running, you have to spin the hands around and around to set the date.  This leads to 'worn out' canon pinions (reduced friction) and sooner or later the CP will have to be tightened or replaced.  Btw, ST and other supply houses have aftmkt rlx 1575 center wheels with cp for around $40 because they wear out so often (become loose and the watch runs but the H and M hands do not move) and genuine parts are so hard to get, rlx p/n 7950.  You can 'tighten' the CP (CP only is rlx p/n 7951) but it still involves r/r the hands and dial with the chance of pinching the CP too tight and having to broach it to fit.  I have tightened a few hundred and can usually hit it on the second or third try but it's still a hassle. I use a Bergeon 2803 'CP vise' (in reality just overpriced fancy end cutter pliers with a stop screw).  Most old timers used nail clippers.  

Case and case back numbers/letters are still going to be a problem but many do not care much about them if using a bracelet.

"The one from Propofol's link is selling fake cases."

Thanks, I did not know that. 

It may be just me but I would rather have a first class replica case than a welded up/ground down/buffed out case for a watch I was going to wear and not resell.  Seems (to me) if potential buyers knew the truth about welded cases on 'genuine' vintage rolex watches they would not be inclined to buy the watch.  The way I see it, welded cases are like a car that has been put together from a total wreck.

I believe this has been discussed in the past.  Iirc the consensus was the cases are genuine but maybe/probably restored by laser welding/grinding/polishing or other means.

http://rwg.cc/topic/173239-opinion-needed-on-these-gen-5513-and-1680-cases/#comment-1366066

"Can I open the hole a bit using jewelers smoothing broach?"

Jeweler's smoothing broaches do not cut, they are made to smooth the id of a hole.  They are used mostly in soft metals and will not do much in hard metals.  Besides that, broaches are tapered, both cutting and smoothing types and are used mostly on soft movement plates etc.  Most jeweler type cutting broaches are not hard enough to remove much metal before they start getting dull when cutting stainless steel.  A precision drill bit would be better and to go from 1.2mm to 1.25mm might be done with a pin vise or battery powered slow speed mini drill/grinder.

'Precision' = made to the exact specified diameter.  Many drill bits are not made to spec, especially cheapos.

On vintage models (5513/1680 etc) I usually go with a #55 bit (1.32mm) because I end up with most aftmkt bracelet hoods not fitting very well.  There is very little difference between 1.25mm and 1.32mm (hard to see the difference) but I have had trouble fitting bracelets with 1.2mm and 1.25mm holes and usually end up enlarging them to 1.32mm...after all, .07mm or .12mm is not very much.  It is also a good idea to measure the tips of the spring bars to see how close to spec they are (1.2mm).  I have seen some that were a few hundredths mm too big.  You can buff them down but they usually just spin inside the tube and it does not do a lot of good.

Some of the cases I bought were already close to 1.32mm, new Yuki '5512' and '5513' were very close to 1.32mm and I ran a #55 bit through the holes with the bit in a pin vice with almost no resistance.  If you have to resort to slightly curved spring bars, the 1.32mm holes will usually allow the tips to extend all the way through the lugs without binding.

Something else about 1.32mm holes is you can use curved spring bars with a leather or nylon strap and the curved spring bars will help keep the strap from wearing away where it rubs the sharp rounded case edges.

"Fake watches are for fake people..."

I like Frankensteins so what does that make me? 

Half-Fake?   Franken-Fake?  

F'ing-Fake?