automatico

"Do you understand it is now fitted in a correct size case with 19mm bracelet ends?"

Yes, as stated:  "a new generation cartel case with asymmetrical pushers totally reshaped"

"The original case is of no use with it's odd size and symmetrical pushers"

Yes, just movements and cases with nice dials.

"There was 2 nice versions only if I recall. Silver and black. The PN looked stupid."

I'll see what I have. 

"The trick is to sand down in dome. Not flat. Otherwise you'd cut out the rehaut for reaching the inside of the case on near 1/2 a mm. So, the bezel retaining ring is modified too to fit on. I will make a picture of the process next time I do it."

Thanks, that would really help.  I have seen pictures of rolex case blanks and they are more or less flat on top with a hole in the center and the metal between the lugs punched out. 

In this video it looks like the tops of the lugs are curved with a press:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=rolex+watch+case+making&qpvt=rolex+watch+case+making&view=detail&mid=54B47D7666207645CD6854B47D7666207645CD68&FORM=VRDGAR

"Exactly... A 4130 is 2800 USD..."

Not bad at all...if you have a case and dial. 

Not too long ago a not running, no rust Zenith El Primero movement would not bring $250 because they are such a pain to work on and parts are n/a but they have probably gone up a lot thanks to Daytona projects.  I remember 20+ years ago when a friend was buffing the bracelet on a Zenith El Primero and it hung in the fluffy buffer wheel and blasted off across the room hitting up in the corner where the wall meets the ceiling.  It was no longer running.  Saw him a few weeks ago and asked the same question I always ask:  "You have any Zenith chronos for sale?"  Same answer every time:  "Just a dial."

Edit concerning post # 32: 

"if the parcel really contained a high value build, why has seller not put in effort to retrieve the parcel and have it returned to him in Australia? It's an overnight affair."

The answer lies within the question.      Many would still like to know what is in the package though.

"I now perfected my technique to thin cases...this transformation consisting of shaving the mid-case upper part" 

Super good work!

What method do you use...if you do not mind telling.  I have cut dial seats/dial windows etc and cut a few cases down next to the case neck for special bezels on projects but always stop cutting at the lug tops.  Had no trouble cutting out to the end of the case band.  Never tried thinning lug tops (sides yes) on a sanding disc etc and figured a cutter bit would chip them in a lathe.  Could rig up a small disc sander on the lathe bed and spin the case against it but never took the time to try it.  Also did not want to 'raise' the lug holes closer to the lug tops so never cut the lug tops.  

Thanks.

Fine looking watch!

"Do you remember these dials?  Those were fitted to the first cartel Daytona reps, sold in the years 2007/2008."

I bought three (four?) from Paul at Abay with the ST19 when they first came out and still have them.  Froze the hand at 6 on one and the others are same as new.  I looked at it while ago (black dial) and the coronet is now shiny black (??).  You are right about the dials, they are pretty good.  Had one regular size 'Daytona' with Russian Poljot 3133 but the movement needed a balance so I sold it.  It came out a few years before the ST19 models and there were not very many around.

I am a 'collector' of rare nos replicas.       That in itself being a rarity.

"long tips spring bars..."

For anyone looking for them...on 20mm lug cases you can use 1600/16000 DJ spring bars and on the 19mm cases use spring bars for 6694 OD and 1500/15000 OPD.  The center tubes are 1.8mm, not 2.0mm like submariners/GMT etc.

"...there is an absurd surplus of 15x0 movements"

Yeah...but they are $1200USD each. 

It sounds like the movement is thicker than a genuine movement.  The 3035 for a 16013 is thicker than a 3135 made for a 162xx case so an 'in spec' 3135 clone should fit in the case with no rotor clearance problems.  See if the stem is centered in the case tube because a genuine 3135 in a 16013 case will have the stem too far toward the front of the case.  

Since the 16013 case has a flat section O ring gasket that fits on the case back, you might try a thicker gasket but make sure there are enough threads left to hold the back on.  The 162xx cases have a round section type O ring gasket that fits in a groove in the case.

"You need to yank that clock-gear Muncie out and stuff in a Super T-10!"

Ha!  My rock crusher days are long past.  I put the Muncie remark in to see if any gearheads noticed. 

I used to keep an M22 cluster gear with greased needle bearings frozen inside it in our freezer because I shucked so many main drive and cluster gears (the bearings were loose, you had to put them in one at a time with heavy grease to hold them in place).  I put a wooden dowel inside to hold the bearings in place and you could take the gear box apart, wash the shrapnel out, stick the new cluster gear in, and push the dowel out with the main drive pin.  I still have the tail shaft bushing puller a friendly machinist made in the 1970s so I could r/r tail shaft bushings without removing the tail shaft case and shifter.  The 410, 456, and 488 cogs spun the drive shaft so fast it ate tail shaft bushings in a hurry.  Times changed...the last V8 I had was a new 1978 Pontiac Grand Prix...with a 'slim jim' automatic.  Since then it has been all 4 banger cars and motorcycles except for a few thumpers.

"Nice info. You blew my mind by saying some people put 19mm bracelets on...I may look into doing that since this is for a women with petite wrists..."

Some 19mm bracelets have regular '16mm' clasps and some have narrow clasps (14mm?), the narrow clasp might be better but you would need an earlier narrow link bracelet too.  I have a 1980s OPD 15053 tutone and I'll dig it out later and see which clasp it has just to see.

Edit:  Measured genuine ss/18k 20mm and ss/18k 19mm hollow mid link 1980s jubilee bracelets.  The 20mm bracelet has a clasp cap that is 16.6mm wide outside, 15.6mm inside with the last link that goes under the clasp being 15.3mm wide and the leading links that join the lugs are 19.5mm wide.  The 19mm bracelet has a clasp cap that is 16.6mm wide outside, 15.6mm inside with the last link that goes under the clasp being 15.3mm wide (same as the 20mm link), and the leading links that join the lugs are 18.5mm wide.  The clasps both have the same part number (62523H.18) and the links under the clasp are the same.  Looks like the main difference is the width of the leading links that connect to the watch.  So...tt hollow mid link bracelets made in the 1980s are basically the same except for the leading links.  All my ST tutone Italy jubilees are 20mm and measure very close to the same as the genuine one above so genuine clasps and hoods will work.

Measured an AK14010M oyster bracelet clasp with hoods and it is 15.6mm outside same as the tutones.

"Have you actually compared the TT bands from startime (which as far as I can see sell for $500-900) vs a Gen band? The price is almost similar enough to just go gen...?

I have compared the tutone jubilee bracelets to genuine and the Italian ST bracelets are probably just about as good.  If you use genuine hoods and clasp they look the same.  Iirc the removable screws are the same size as oem too.  Have a low mileage genuine late 1980s 16233 DJ with a jubilee and when compared to a new heavy mid link ST bracelet, they are very close.  ST offers a regular tutone bracelet with thinner mid links and they will probably not last as long.  Genuine hollow mid link tutone jubilee bracelets have mid links made like the heavy link ST bracelets with thicker, rounded inside corners in the mid links.  ST ss/18k heavy link 20mm jubilee is $1130 USD, ss/14k heavy link is $875, ST ss/18k 20mm oyster is $1090, and ss/14k is $790. 

Have a genuine 20mm ss/18k oyster bracelet and it has steel tubes over the screws inside the removable link screws to help with friction, can not tell if it has them on the permanent links or not.  Do not know if ST Italy made tutone oyster has them or not but they probably do.  Last I heard a new genuine 20mm ss/18k hollow link oyster or jubilee with regular clasp was around $3k USD.  A good used one will probably go for $800 to $1200 USD.  Some owners use 19mm bracelets on watches made for 20mm bracelets so the outer edge of the links will not scuff and wear the inner edges of the lugs.  A lot of watches with old style hoods will have the inside tips of the lugs worn down where the bracelet has gnawed on them.  This does not apply to watches with sel bracelets.

Gnawed!   Like in "I gnawed half the teeth off second gear in my old Muncie."

"PS: To the OP, the movements would be good, but the price seems a little high to be excited over."

I agree.  That is why I posted about c/o needed on most of them and to check on competing prices.  When we had a watch store (closed Feb 2015), nos swiss eta movement deals were always around at low prices along with a lot of nos swiss eta powered watches.  At one time we were offered nos in box, steel and steel/gold plate Gruen watches with swiss eta 2824 date automatics (Walmart closeouts probably) for $45 each iirc (would have to look it up), 100 minimum and nos Oniss president style day/date with swiss eta 2836 for $55 each ($55 for sure on the Oniss).  There is one of the swiss Gruens on eBay now...item number  132049245694 and an Oniss item number  221999880668

Movements...we bought over 100 new Seagull ST6D and DG/NN/ST16 Miyota clone movements at $12 each for ST6D and $16 each for the others to swap out in cheapo fashion watches that we sold 6 or 7 years back.  Now the DG2813 is $47.95 or 3@ $45.95 each and the ST6D is $42.95 or 3@ $41.95 each in the 2016 C-K Co. movement catalog #45.  A guy in Miami sold us new fake quartz longines, cartier, and movado watches for $2 each back then and we bought them 100 at a time just to get the Hattori (Seiko) PC21 movements because that was less than we could get raw movements for. The PC21 is $5.50 each and 3 @ $5.25 each in the 2016 C-K catalog.  The movados had two hand PC movements and they retail for more than three hand models.  How in the world they could make $$ at those prices I will never know and it would be hard to believe some of the watch deals that are floating around even today.  Most of the wholesale/closeout guys we know are HQ'd in NYC.  We could get better deals on Japan quartz/China mech movements if we bought more but we did not need 1000 movements at a time.  One thousand PC21 movements were about $2.50 each then and high quality Japan made 377 batts were $150 for 1000.  The batts came in small white plastic trays of 500 with a thin, sticky plastic film covering them and holding them in their compartments.  Last time I called on 377 batts (a few months ago) the best price was $230 for 1000.  Why the increase?  No mercury!

"He also claimed that the DHL guy filled in the address and he simply signed on the slip."

I have sent a LOT of watches out over the years and have never failed to triple check the addresses.  I would not rely on a desk clerk to address a package without checking it carefully because they could easily send it to an accomplice.

I have had my share of trouble with DHL including a rolex dial that made not one but two trips around the world while coming from Denmark to the USA (while always claiming it had been delivered), so I would believe just about anything about DHL.  Years ago a friend had a fairly large quantity of watch straps made in China with US Wildlife approved croc skins legally sent from the USA.  They were very late in arriving back from China (DHL of course) and were finally found 'impounded' in Anchorage, Alaska...with all paper work intact and 100% legal.  How they got there no one knows (other than DHL and they were not talking).  He had to send a lawyer to Anchorage to settle things and bring them back at no small expense.  

The whs swiss Eta 2836 with Asian GMT conversion was reliable and probably good for 10 or 15 years.  An etaclone GMT with whs might be good for 5 to 10 years depending on the movement.  The Asian etaclone GMT with chs may be good for 10 or 15 days (never had one but probably not far off).     

This seems to be an unsolvable problem much like the Asian 7750 Daytona sec @ 6 mvt.  'Unsolvable' = movement makers are too cheap to fix it.  

I have used quite a few of the ST Italian made all steel and ss/14k/18k bracelets in the past 20+ years and they all have been very good quality.  Their heavy mid link tutone jubilee bracelets are hard to beat but high gold prices have made them pricey.  Sounds like their China bracelets may not be as good.  I have had a few stripped screws on run of the mill 'dead end' bracelet links and there is usually no easy fix other than pulling the link apart.  Always use Loctite on the threads when putting it back together for two reasons:  1 - Keep the screw from coming out.  2 - Prevent corrosion/galling.  Heat the links over a candle etc before removing the screws to soften the Loctite.  Heating the link works for corrosion too. 

ST also has good hollow mid link oyster sub/DJ links for about $15 each.

"I'm kind of new but from reading it seems all of the rep. 93150 Bracelets are pretty much equal..."

You might end up putting one together from parts.  That is what I end up doing. 

Here is a partial list of some replica parts to look for:   Two first links (aka leading links) with 93150 stamped on them (not very easy to find, may have to go with 93250).    Full set of links of proper thickness with hollow middle links.    Clasp with a rivet where the 'flip lock' closes down over the clasp cap hinge (many have a spring bar here and if the sb is swapped out for a rivet, the flip lock will not pass over the rivet head).    Proper type of diver extension.    Set of 580 end links (hoods) that will accept oem spec spring bars with 2mm center tubes.

Pitfalls:   Many clasp 'Z' blades on steel watches have an 18 (for 18k center links) stamped on them, need one without it.    Some replica bracelets with hollow mid links are too thin and do not look right.    Many of the sheet metal replica dive extensions will not stay snapped together when r/r the watch.

A genuine clasp is a very good option as P153 said above.  I got one in a trade a while back but still ended up with over $100 in it.  New, they are $250 or so.  I have not used it on a watch but use it for comparison when making a clasp up using replica parts.  I have been using folded Watch International/Mary oyster bracelets on vintage 5512/13 with the early type clasp cap where the adjustment holes are equally spaced.  I made a tool out of strap notching pliers to put the oem type 'dents' on the side of the clasp cap between the last two adjustment holes to hold the bracelet up under the clasp cap.  They look good but have 7836 on the leading links instead of 9315.  They are also very well made.

The best 93150 I have came on one of two MBK 1680s I got a few years ago but the other one had solid mid links.

Phong cases are probably the best that WE know of.  WE = RWG members.  There are better case makers/detailers no doubt but they have not been 'outed' and are unknown to RWG members while their cases are out there passing as genuine.  One example might be the infamous laser welded cases for sale on eBay now and then...they are genuine rotted out/damaged cases that have been welded up and detailed.  I would not want one (at the going prices) but I am sure there are others that do if only because the case started out as genuine.  I have one Phong case (1655) and it is top quality but just about any 'expert' seriously versed in the 1655 could probably spot it as a replica.

Yuki cases seem to be top notch too, maybe not up to Phong standards, but they are about half the price.  Another viable alternative is an MBW/MBK case but they are getting pricey, have faults (as do all), and need some detailing.

One thing that makes a replica case appear to be genuine is the sign of day in, day out wear but many have been ruined by overly aggressive aging efforts...nicks/dents/deep scratches, beveled lug holes, deep fried dials etc.  I have been wearing an MBK '5512' with 1570, Yuki dial and "Mary' folded oyster bracelet that looks pretty good (to me anyway) and when compared to a photo array of genuine 5512 watches it looks better than some and worse than others but at the price, it suits me fine.   

"I googled him (Phong) and a lot of information tells me he make many mistakes."

Everyone in this hobby/business makes mistakes.  Some are not noticed and some stand out.  On a high priced case, they should not stand out.  Otoh if you do not mind, it does not matter.  My MBK '5512' has goofy CG (viewed from the front) and I do not mind, so it does not matter.  The rest of it is A-Ok.  More or less.  

"Actually the 2834, 24, 36, and 2671 are in good supply. The factory has increased production."

My guess is slow sales to outside companies has caused Eta movements to stack up.  Imho swatch/eta screwed themselves when they cut supplies thereby causing other movement makers to clone the out of patent Eta 28xx etc.  Now a fairly big slow down in overall watch sales (20% to 30%) plus all the non Eta clones available is making it worse.  For example, ST is having a sale of sorts on some Eta movements and is offering a new 'plain jane' Eta 2824 for $173.63 and a few with Incabloc/Geneva Waves/Pearlage with the rotor signed BTC also for $173.63 (the fancy models went fast, only one left).  Another problem is that Eta jacked prices so high that they now have to be careful about lowering movement prices so watch companies and supply houses do not lose $$ on movements they paid more for when prices were higher.  Basically what Eta has done is pizzed everyone off and shot themselves in the foot because now they can not maintain previous production levels with reduced world wide watch sales and high quality swiss made clones for sale at competing prices. 

Reality is a beech.  

ILW:  "These are NOS movements meaning they have never been used in a watch but I would still say they would need a cleaning and adjustment to make them run in tip top."

The 250 watch buy may be a good deal but that is a lot of stock to move so be sure they are not widely for sale at competing prices, this is why I posted the ST prices.  I have 50+ nos Eta 28xx (mostly 2824/36 in nos watches) and many are 15 to 20 years old and will run but they all need c/o to make them reliable.  Each one needs to be taken apart/cleaned/put back together/oiled.  I have an L&R Ultramatic Ultrasonic cleaning machine and it is still no small task.  No 'Solo Lube' type jobs for me but that is sometimes what you get...read up on this method.

"Rolex is not really in the 'tool' watch biz anymore."

For sure.

Imho they made the change from 'tool watches' to 'cuff shooters' when they went to big dot markers and fatty lugs.  Do not care much for their modern 'H. R. Giger' clasp either.  Too many parts.

"Where are the best quality watches online under $200?"

You will not find many mechanical watches at this price that are worth a hoot.  You might be lucky and get a mechanical replica with a '21 jewel' Asian movement that runs for a couple years, but usually not.  Otoh you might find some pretty good quartz replicas...TAG, Cartier etc but you need a good eye for details to spot the better models.  I had a genuine quartz Cartier Santos Galbee and compared it to a higher grade replica and the main difference was the genuine watch had slotted screws in the case back and the replica had Philips heads, the engravings dial etc were close.  I still have the $100 replica 10+ years later running fine with the original Hattori (Seiko) movement that came in it.  The genuine $2000 watch had a $35 Eta 956.xxx and I could see no reason to keep the genuine watch so it is long gone.  Now Cartier uses mostly 'in house' movements in order to jack the price and prevent local movement repairs.  Had a new genuine automatic Cartier Pasha in 1995 and it had a $200 Eta 2892A2 in it.  Very little real world difference now between a $4k genuine Pasha and today's $400 replica with an Asian etaclone 2824/36 except details...water resistance, dial/hand quality etc imho. 

Btw mechanical replicas in general are plagued with problems because of little or no QC, especially chronographs.  They are a lot like buying a used Seiko 5 on eBay from a guy with 1 feedback.  

Q..."who has the best sub?"   A...the rolex AD down at the mall.  

'Been looking around for gen 1565 movement."

A 1565 date movement is not very hard to find but a 1565GMT movement is.  Since your post is in a 1675 GMT thread (and you posted a WTB in the trade section), I will assume you are looking for a 1565GMT movement.  The 1565GMT is a standard 1565 date movement with a few special GMT parts...parts that are nearly impossible to find today.  So...unless you have a very good appropriately dated genuine 1675 case and dial, I would rethink the project because a 1675 Frankenstein is usually not worth the sum of the parts unless you get a steal of a deal on the movement.  I learned this the hard way when trying to put a Phong case/dial 1655 with a 1575 hack together along with changing the movement out to GMT...over 3 years and $3k later it is still just a box of parts. 

You could also buy a no hack 1575GMT movement and change the escapement out to 18000bph along with the autowind top plate and make a 1565GMT out of it as the parts are all the same except the escapement and the 1565/1565GMT was not a hack movement.  Some 1560/65 have a 'curb feeler' hairspring guard and some do not so this does not matter a whole lot but all I have seen had the plate machined for one.  Hack movements have a different set lever and the dial side main plate is machined for the hack lever so they are not hard to spot if someone removes a few parts and looks for it.  The set lever can easily be changed but the main plate is a problem if you want a convincing 1565GMT movement.  Some 1570/75 main plates are machined for the 'curb feeler' so you might be able to add one if you want it.  The serial number on the movement means very little so it is not much of an issue.  Misiekped posted he had a 1675GMT movement so that might be one way to make one if you wanted to swap out the escapement parts and a/w plate.

"If anybody wants to order any of these, PM me."

I doubt anyone but a rolexnut would even notice the markers are a hair too big.

"That would be about the right size dial for a mid-size case if you didn't want to "waste" the dial..."

I always thought a 1500 or 15000 case would make a nice mid size no CG mid size 'submariner'.  A 26.5mm 1680 dial will work in a 1500/15000 case and you could use a modern stainless 6mm crown made for a 5.3mm case tube.  The catch is the crystal and rotating bezel.  Iirc the OD of a 127 crystal is around 30.3mm and the ID of a 5512/13/1680 inner bezel is pretty close.  Maybe need to make an inner bezel that will fit the crystal and oem spec aftmkt rotating bezel...if the 127 mag or 19 nomag crystal will work on a 1500 or 15000 case, have not tried it. 

The 1500 and 15000 cases are the same internally and either one will accept a rolex 1570/5 date or 3035 movement and dial so a 2836/46 should work too.  There is an external difference because a 1500 takes a 117 crystal and a 15000 takes a 145 so there is an external difference in the cases or bezels...the 145 has a bigger OD.  I have the parts but never tried to see what will work with what.

Never saw a maxi dial on a genuine 14060/14060M watch.  Not saying there was no such thing though.  I have a few el cheapo lug hole cases that originally had ST16 movements and I will see if my left over ruffy 14060 dial from my last screwed up no date project will fit in it.  The cases have 60 click bezels and no case clamp groove but one of them might make a good knock-arounder with a 2836 in it.  After I get about 50 projects finished. 

If the maxi markers do not leave a mark on the dial after removing them you might swap the maxi markers out for smaller markers.  If they are still using the 'never set booger glue' on markers they might come off easily (lot of ifs in this idea though).

"Found this post, it looks like it will work though..."

The case reference number is not mentioned in the link.  

"Does anyone know if a SA3135 or yuki will fit in a 16xxx dj case..."  if 16xxx means a 162xx DJ case, then the answer would be yes...if the movement and case are genuine spec. 

Replicas and Frankensteins may be the cartoons of the watch world but a 6.35mm thick movement will still not fit into a case made for a 6.0mm thick movement.  No kiddin'.  

About 15 years ago I bought a few '14060' from the infamous Watchlover David (aka Watchcrook David) and they turned out to be about as good as the many editions of this model that followed.  The WLD watches used the basic 16610 case with lug holes and a new swiss eta 2836-2.  The bracelets were the standard bracelet back then with solid mid links and a fair to pretty good clasp.  The dials were pretty good too except the O in rOlex was a standard round O instead of the rolex Century Bold style O.  Other than that, they were a good deal for $220 at the time.

I got a couple good eta 14060 dials from JMB a few years ago and made a couple more using 16610 cases but traded them away.  Far as I know he does not have any more.  The 16610 cases are slightly different from 14060 but they are close enough and no one ever said anything about the out of spec case or wrong font on the dial.  So...the best way to get one today is probably round up the parts and put one together.  Go with swiss eta if possible, not a clone or China 21 jewel.

As for genuine 14060...I would go with the 14060M because it has the cal 3130 where the 14060 had the cal 3000.  Same for Air King...go for the 14000M/14010M etc. 

"Does anyone know if a SA3135 or yuki will fit in a 16xxx dj case..."

A genuine 3135 will not work in a genuine 16000 series case so if the SA3135 is genuine spec it will not fit, but it should work in a 162xx case.  Do not know if genspec hands will fit the SA3135 or not (never had one of the SA3135 mvts).  If the SA3135 H and M hand hubs are oem spec and the ss pinion is oem spec they should fit.

Example of one of many exercises in futility...

I cut the dial seat deeper in a 162xx DJ case about 20 years ago in order to put a 3035 in it and ran into a lot of trouble.   1...the second hand rubbed the sapphire crystal   2...cut the ss hand tube down and lowered the hand   3...the ss hand rubbed the minute hand   4...lowered the H and M hands   5...the M hand rubbed the applied markers   6...substituted the applied marker dial for a white/black 'Buckley' printed dial   7...it finally worked 

Never thought about using a taller 16610 crystal gasket but I may try it sometime just to see if it will work.  Still have the case, 3035, and applied marker dial.  No longer have the printed dial.