automatico

I have followed VRF since its inception and am now noticing a lot of watches that I call 'junk watches or parts watches' being Ooed and Awed at by VRF posters wanting an 'expert opinion' on them. "Should I buy it?" etc not noticing or saying anything about the chop marks on the lugs (missed swing with a wood chopper axe maybe?), the 'talcum powder' lume on the markers, the corrosion on the case back 1.5mm deep, or the razor thin crown guards...not to mention ratty looking movements.   What's wrong with these nubs? Are they so desperate to own a Vintage Rolex! that they will pay good $$ for parts watches?   I guesso.   If it was me, I would figure I was too late to play in the game and sit it out.

When the same watches that cost $450 new and sold for $2000 or $2500 15 years ago in good condition (5512/13, 1680 etc) are going for $8k to $10k and 'parts watches' of the same ref numbers now going for $5k or $6k...where does it end? Will prices on good watches continue to rise?   Probably.

More questions:  1...Will these junk watches take the place of good watches and experience big price increases?   2...Has the bar been lowered that far?   3...Will these characters wise up?   4...Will high grade replicas and Frankensteins pick up much of the slack?

I say:  1...Yes.   2...Yes.   3...No   4...Yes, but there is no way to know for sure.

'Nub' = dumber than a noob.

"How do I determine if the sub is not genuine?"

The sharpest replica watch guys in the world just told you what it is.

My guess is the watch is worth more than any Frankenstein you could put together using the Eterna movement, counting the $$ spent on the Frankenstein case, dial, movement $ervice etc.  If the Eterna is reasonably priced ($300 to $400 or so) buy it and set it aside to sell later as a complete watch. If it has a 'Doctor Price', forget it.

Since there are no standards for replica gaskets you will need to know what size and type you need...more than likely an O ring type, sized by inner diameter and thickness. To get the ID of a damaged O ring gasket, measure the ID of the gasket groove where it mounts. Here is an article on how to find what size you need:

http://blog.esslinger.com/how-to-replace-an-rubber-o-ring-watch-back-gasket/

After you determine the size you need, post a WTB or in a thread and someone will surely have one.

"What does it take to get a gun license in the states?"

Basically a background check with no personal interview. They check for small rapes/minor murders/prison records etc...no in depth interview asking about mental stability, political beliefs, who you have a grudge against etc and this is where much of the real trouble is. A good interviewer can weed out many of the loonies.

edit:  Left out...also requires basic hand gun training in most states.

To the anti gunners...

While gun ban advocates fret and ring their hands about guns...how many guns were used in the 911 attacks?

While gun ban advocates fret and ring their hands about guns...how many guns are involved when thousands of people are killed each year by drunk drivers? Compare people killed by drunk drivers to people who die because of guns...then look at the people who were saved by guns and compare it to the people who were saved by drunk drivers.

To the people in charge...

Why not take a close look at the loonies who carry out these attacks? It's not like they live in a vacuum and no one knows about their beliefs and activities. The Orlando shooter had been spouting off for 10 years and the Feds knew about it and did nothing. Who are you going to blame that on? Oh, I get it...blame the guns he used. 

I know about guns. I've owned quite a few, took them apart, put them back together, am a very good shot. I've been shot at twice and had a gun pulled on me once. I live in the real world...unlike a 'Ban the Guns' whiner that never gets out of the house but wants everyone's legal guns taken away. Otoh I am not a 'concealed carry' or 'make my day' advocate but agree with the right of a sane person to 'carry if necessary'.

It's the loonies I am worried about.

Kime is right.

I learned the hard way to sometimes back down from 'grail watches' when putting Frankensteins together. Two favorites I have shied away from are 6542 and 1675...6542 because it would cost way too much and the 1675 because a genuine 1675GMT movement would also cost too much. I flew into one grail watch project a few years back with eyes wide open and it bogged down after a while, a 1655 with Phong case/dial and 1570/75 converted to GMT with genuine parts except for a few I gave up on. GMT parts are too hard to find and too expensive so I shelved the project. Maybe for now, maybe for now on.

What did I learn? It is much easier and cheaper to go with 5512/13/1680 with the 5512/13 being the easiest because of no date. A 6538 is Ok but you have the high $$ case, dial, and brass bezel to deal with. A rolex 1680 using genuine movement and slow set date = trouble sooner or later. The upside is if you buy a good case and have a good movement to start with, the watch should last 20 or 25 years with a few c/o along the way.

The next step down (or up depending on how you look at it) for a 5512/13 is to go with a high quality case/dial and an Eta 2846 etc movement. Same results as above for much less $$. An Eta 1680 project is Ok too and you will have a qs date but this calls for a dw overlay and any problems they might have.

"One thing Joey B talked about was taking a Perfect Clones 1655 case and taking off the crown guards- file them off and repolish that side of the case."

I had good luck removing crown guards on a 1680 type case but this was after I screwed up a couple junk cases getting the hang of it. I used a $99 five (5) inch Harbor Freight disc sander with 320 grit to grind the cg down most of the way and finished with 800 and 1200. It did not take long and be warned...the 320 cuts FAST. Very fast, and it can get you past the point of no return in no time at all. It will make needles out of FAT lugs in about 20 seconds. Set the platform at 90 degrees from the disc and run the case against the disc lightly to see how it cuts, then grind a little at a time. The 320 leaves a rough finish so stop cutting while there is still enough metal left to finish grinding the case into shape with 800, then 1200 and finish with polishing compound. 

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-in-x-5-in-Combination-Belt-and-Disc-Sander-69033.html     You can catch them on sale for $20 or $25 less.

The sandpaper came from eBay. You can get six (6) inch sandpaper (sometimes cheaper) and trim it down with an Exacto knife after sticking it on the disc.

"I think most or all the people who regularly read this forum are really interested in watches."

I like watches and have traded and worked on them for many years as a hobby but did not fool with higher grade replicas and Frankensteins until prices for genuine (rolex) watches and parts went from absurd to insane about 15 years ago. Here is the kicker...I still work on watches and stick a Franko together now and then along with going through the chore of wearing it long enough to 'road test' it but I usually do not wear the same watch for more than a few days nor can I 'fall in love' with any watch, especially an automatic that has to be worn to make it run (no watch winders for me). So...I tend to wear quartz watches, usually Citizen, Seiko, Casio, Mallard (!), etc. Today it is a 'put together' TAG Heuer Formula with a steel case, full glow pissgreen/yellow dial with a red minute chapter, and a bright yellow plastic bezel from a no name cheapo dive watch that happened to fit. It is on a black nylon mesh strap with deployant buckle. It is a 'summertime watch' and looks better than it sounds. The watch was made from parts and probably cost about $40. I would say $25 to $75 each (my actual cost, not retail or selling price) is the average for my 'wearing' watches. I wear one for a while, then swap it out.

The reason how I can put Frankensteins together without breaking the bank is that I have vintage (1530 base) parts, movements, parts watches etc left from when I did a lot of trading and things cost less. Now I will put something together, take it apart after a while or put it away and move on. It's just something to do. I guess at the end of the run I will sell the watches on this forum or part them out.

"The main risk is that someone will come up with a better case than the Phong you're using and then its no longer worth $800-1200."

This is a good point, especially if the 'better' case only costs $300 or $400.

I took the time (most of a day) to drill the lug holes out, machine the case tube seat to spec, grind the case sides flat, and polish them on a $150 DW '1680' case and I must say it looks pretty good except it says 'Steinless Steel' on one end. I have had the disc sander for over 10 years so I did not spend anything this time around except about $5 for stick on sandpaper discs (800 and 1500 grit) plus some 'wet or dry' sandpaper, polishing rouge and Simichrome polish. I figure my time is worth what I pay for it. 

"Also, with very few exceptions, putting a gen movement in a franken is a bad move economically."

Another good point. It used to be that a ratty rolex 1600 DJ, 1500 OPD or 5500 AK would go for $500 or $600 at pawnshops around here and it made genuine movement Frankensteins affordable. Now thanks to eBay, a ratty 1600, 1500, or 5500 will go for $1200 and up making the movements cost too much.

'Steinless Steel' is a new $uper alloy.  

"Tutone" Rolexes? Rolexes owned by Tommy Tutone?

Only if the serial number is 8675309.  

"Can a watch constructed outside of Rolex factory but with all genuine parts be called a genuine rolex?"

I would say yes because it is all genuine. Like I have said before, there are probably thousands of these watches in circulation and I remember 20+ years ago when many 'big time dealers' would buy 10 or 20 similar genuine rolex watches at watch shows (mostly tutone DJ) and mix and match parts to put the best of the best together to sell at premium prices and watches in not as good condition were put together in descending levels of quality and sold at lower prices. This still goes on. Do not doubt it, just not tutones now.

Where do a lot of the highest quality, high $$ 1016/5512/13/1680 etc come from? Many come from a stash of parts.  Example:  I have a nos 1570 movement and a couple nos tritium 1016 dial and hand sets plus nos crowns, case tubes, crystals, etc.. What is to keep me from putting it in a super fine case, claim it is 'like new' and sell it for a high price? Nothing really. It just never happened. 

"How much is too much?"

I figure 'Frankensteins' are not much of a loss if:  1. You can do the work yourself and not pay out a lot of labor costs.  2. You can sell the watch on the forum for minimum or no loss.  3. The parts are worth close to what you have in the watch if you want to part it out.  A 5512/13/1680 in a Yuki or MBK case, Yuki etc dial/hands with a 1520/60/70 (holding movement cost to around $1000), and a good bracelet is not a bad 'investment' for around $2000 for an everyday watch. It sure beats a genuine 5512/13/1680 etc with a ratty dial/hands, tired movement, rotted out case, and stretch-o-matic 'parts is parts' oyster bracelet for $7k or more.

"SuperFranken

Gen 1601 midcase and back.
Gen piepan dial
Gen crown
Gen 1570 Movement
Gen Crystal
Gen bezel"

This is not a 'SuperFranken', it is basically a genuine watch with no original papers or sales receipt. Many watches this old are 'put togethers' with no papers and share this same pedigree. I have probably owned a few, there is no way to know.

As for the case...it is junque, take MOAB's advice.

Something else to look for...I bought two 1601/3 cases, one from eBay and one at a watch show (sight unseen when a friend called from the show saying he found one) and both have 'case rot'. The one from eBay was not too bad but the one from the show looked great but was badly corroded where the gasket seals to the case. I may cut a groove in the case and use an O ring type gasket in place of the original flat gasket or cut a deeper gasket seat and use a thicker flat gasket. Many of the older 1500/1600 cases have case rot and have also seen a lot of 16000 type cases that were rotted out. Rust Never Sleeps...

The Clark crystals might be good for watches with genspec case necks/bezels and Eta date offset.

Most cases with spring wire bezels will not accept an oem spec crystal/bezel set and here's why:

In order to fit a genspec outer bezel to a case, the case neck will have to be oem spec or machined to oem spec (29.5mm), and a genspec crystal and gasket need to be fitted along with a complete oem spec bezel set...retainer bezel, rotating bezel, insert, click spring etc. Hard to do (if it needs to be machined) and expen$ive.

There is usually a groove in the case neck for the spring wire on cases with crystal gaskets mounted inside the case neck and if the groove is not machined away on the way to 29.5mm, it might cause trouble with leaks etc. On cases with an oem type crystal/gasket combo (oem spec or not), you will still need to end up with a 29.5mm case neck one way or another to use oem spec inner and outer bezels. If the case neck has to be machined quite a bit...it has to be thick enough to support the gasket/crystal/bezel assembly and not be too tall or short. Taking all this into consideration, there may be too many problems to solve.

Two good things about spring wire bezels are they do not get knocked off easily or develop tight spots from getting knocked around. The spring wire method is usually a more rugged method of securing a rotating bezel and since they have more space between the id of the rotating bezel and od of the retainer bezel,  knocks usually will not distort the bezel enough to cause tight spots when turning it.

"Little big at 1.3mm"

The tips of the spring bars are 1.2mm so 1.3mm holes make a good fit. I have had the tips of spring bars not fully extend when I went with 1.25mm holes because of misalignment of the bracelet mid link, hoods, and lug holes. Besides that, many aftmkt bracelets are not oem spec and the hoods need to be trimmed so the spring bar tips will go all the way through the lugs and not be in a bind. Things go south when the drill bit is allowed to wobble in the hole or is not started straight and the hole ends up too big or out of round. JMB calls it: 'wallered'. Cases need to be solidly mounted when drilling lug holes and I do that but still cringe every time I drill a lug hole because there is the potential for a lot of things to go wrong (broken bits, seized bits etc) and on top of it all, stainless steel is not easy to work with.

Chamfering holes on the outside of lugs will make the holes look too big and detracts from the smooth lines of the lugs. There will usually be small 'stress marks' and/or scratches from metal chips around the holes caused by drilling and you can smooth them out by sanding the lugs with 1000, 1500, and 2000 sandpaper being careful not to make flat spots around the holes or get into the bevels on top of the lugs. Finish up by polishing with Simichrome polish etc. It is a lot of work for little reward but makes the finished job look a lot better. Slightly chamfering the lug holes inside the lugs with an oversize drill bit makes it easier to install spring bars, especially when using hoods (end pieces) with tubes soldered in them.

Something else to think about is how much room will be left between the outer edge of the drilled hole and the top, bottom, or tip of the lug? Many replica cases have the holes close to an edge and drilling the holes out to a larger size results in the hole coming out to the edge of the lug making the lug look bad. On a few cases with this problem, I left the holes as/is and used spring bars with longer tips like used on rolex 1600/16000 and let it go at that.

"I'm actually in the process of trying to build a vintage Heuer diver from odd parts"

Me too but mine is a T/H 1000 from just after Heuer became TAG Heuer. Have a new bezel insert and hands plus a sapphire crystal to replace the MG that came in it and a new Eta 955.112 but never put it together because a watch like mine is not worth much at all now. The watches like the one pictured above are worth quite a bit today though.

Here is a list of older models:

http://www.onthedash.com/docs/DiveWatchRefTable.html

It seems that watch snobs hate simple TAG Heuer quartz time and date dive models for some reason. Maybe because they are quartz, or they hate reliable watches that do not cost much, are deep water resistant, rugged, accurate, and will run for 20 years with a batt change now and then...or maybe because they like paying $1000 for a mech watch 'tune up' every few years so they can brag about it.  

"that seller always asks way too much for everything they got. ALWAYS"

For sure.

Now they are dissecting 1680 dials:  

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/message/1462985039

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1464845602/last-1464959455/View+All

It's pretty good but it reminds me of a UFO spotter club meeting.

This is a common problem on replicas with rotating bezels because the parts are hit or miss on specs so a replacement part may or may not fit any better.

You have a few things to consider: 1..You need SD 1665 parts and they are hard to find compared to 5512/13/1680 parts.  2..Cartel parts may or may not be 'in spec' (same as oem) or in spec from one watch to the next so just any replacement 1665 bezel may not fit.  3..You may need a new crystal as well as a complete bezel assembly in order to fix the problem. Not cheap.

One way out is to buy a bezel set from someone who bought one of the latest MBK 5512/13/1680 that came with a 1665 bezel assembly.

The easiest way out would be to have a new inner bezel with a slightly larger od made by a member who does these things but most of them have really slowed down or stopped altogether because they got snowed under with repairs. This is why so many of us had to become 'replica experts' for want of a better title.

I doubt a sign hanging outside a watch repair shop with 'Replica Expert' on it would be good for business.  

Is a 'replica expert' an expert in replicas or a 'fake' expert in whatever they claim to be an 'expert' in?

"Rick, do you recall which "version" of Justin's case you're using? I've got one of his "V2" cases and the gen 1016 service dial I have seats inside the case snugly."

Do not know what 'V' they are but the cases were purchased in late February 2016 and they were the type that had thinned down lugs and two sets of spring bar holes on the insides of the lugs with 1.3mm+/- JMB holes drilled all the way through, no numbers/letters between the lugs. 

I did some measuring while ago and the genuine 16220 case that I used for the earlier '1016' project has a dial seat diameter of 28.0mm and a dial window opening of 27.5mm, so there is not much metal supporting the dial but the dial seat is a close fit around the dial. The JMB case has a dial seat diameter of 29.2mm and a dial window opening diameter of 27.3mm. The bigger dial seat area will not center the dial like the genuine case so the movement spacer has to be a very close fit on the movement and inside the case in order to keep the dial centered so a space will not show on one side.

Have a 'like new' L240xxx 16220 case from the late 1980s and I cut the dial seat deeper in the case so it would accept a cal 3035 but never wore it much because it did not work out like I wanted. This would be an ideal case to thin down and make a 'high grade' 1016 project with a 1520 and genuine dial. It would need a movement with taller 1575 date center wheel, cp, and hour wheel plus the calendar spacer like what is needed in an MBK 1520/70 '5512/13' projet because of the deeper dial seat. I doubt I will ever get around to it though because it has been in the project box for 20 years. I do have all the parts though.

As for a thinned down slower beat Eta...I have an Eta 2879 (d/d at 3) and it does not use a sheet metal calendar spacer but has a shoulder made on the top plate for a spacer. After I take it apart I'll see if maybe the shoulder can be cut away in a lathe to thin it down close to a 2824. May have to remove the sheet metal hour wheel keeper if it has one but the dial (with a dial washer if needed) will hold the hour wheel down.

Genuine gold pateks sell high because of the brand name but other 'high grade' brands can often be purchased for bargain prices. A friend bought an 18k AP manual wind time only watch about a year ago for $250. Hard to beat (unless you need parts for it). I bought an 18k automatic (aka 'Ipsomatic') Gubelin in May 2009 for $200 and another one in Dec 2012 for $300, both in heavy 'waterproof' style cases. Also hard to beat. I do not wear them, I bought them because they were less than the gold is worth and are fine watches. I have a shoe box full of gold watches from the past 30+ years and have not sold them because many would be scrapped for the gold value because they are worth more for scrap gold than as a watch. I have a soft spot for Hamilton, Gruen, Elgin, Benrus, and Bulova and do not want to see them melted down. I do not see nearly as many gold watches now as before gold went crazy in 1980 ($850) and 2011 ($1895). It went down for a while but is up over $1270 now. 

How did I end up with a box of gold watches?  I have a few friends who buy gold and they let me know when something nice shows up.

Have a 14k 1950s heavy round snap back Bulova case with a Mickey Mouse dial and quartz Hattori (Seiko) two hand movement that I wear now and then. It has a 'Blue Sky' dial from a Disney MM watch ref number MU1100 and a MM crown with mouse ears on it. It gets more comments than any watch I ever had and it makes people smile.

I use aftmkt 127 crystals from different suppliers and they have been Ok. I have two '1680 Frankenstein' watches, one with a genuine dial and 1570/75 and one with a Yuki dial and 1570/75. Both have aftmkt crystals and both line up over the date correctly with good magnification. Trouble can arise when an Eta movement and 'Eta specific' dial are used with the date window not in the correct (oem rolex) location and the date wheel made to match...this will make the date too far to the right. The fix calls for an 'open 6/9' date wheel overlay and rolex spec dial...or a crystal without a magnifier.

Otoh, if the magnifier on the crystal is too far to the right and your dial/dw are 'oem rolex specific'...you may have a oem spec dial/dw combo and 'Eta specific' crystal.   Whew!

Most of the oem spec aftmkt crystals are pretty good when they are from well known supply houses and I have always had good luck with GS brand crystals. The rolex crystal p/n is 25-127 but if it was me, I would not spend the $$ on one for a project watch.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/message/1464220787/FS-+1967+Rolex+Double+Red+Sea+Dweller+Ref-+1665+Mark+I+Pat.+Pending+with+Owner+Info

$10k for the watch with $8k premium for the dial....plus $135k extra for the bracelet.  "Very Good prototype Swiss Made rivet bracelet."

Another watch with the "7206 Prototype Bracelet" for a LOT less $$...

eBay item number  221920434323

So...this can only mean a 1967 DRSD is worth $123,350 more than a 1967 5513 considering the bracelets are the same.

Either that or the clasp alone is worth about $122,350.   

$$ numbers rounded off.

5-27  Fresh bait! Extra rare! This one came up overnight...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/message/1464320227/FS-+Extra+rare+Rolex+straight+end+Rivet+bracelet+from+1950

I'm rich! I have one of these. Iirc it came on an old 6422...or you can make one by changing the end links out and go from a $200 bracelet to a '$3k' bracelet. Quite a few vintage off brand bracelets have similar end links.

Albert Riele watches...supposedly a Swiss watch brand that has been around since 1881.

My guess it is an old forgotten swiss brand and the brand name has been purchased by a marketing/watch company so they can use the swiss pedigree to make them appear to be relevant in the swiss watch arena. There are hundreds of doa swiss watch brands and many of today's 'Big Names' are not much more than a brand name from the 1800s/1900s that was out of business for 50 or 75 years and bought for a few thousand $$ and fired back up.

Under the 'swiss made' rule, a watch can get by with being 90% Asian made because they only have to be 60% swiss 'by value' with 'final assembly' (whatever that means) performed in switzerland. Take a $30 swiss Eta quartz movement and stuff it in a $20 HK case/dial/hands/bracelet combo in switzerland for a few bucks and you have a 'swiss made' $1500 retail watch.

I saw this with a batch of Wenger 'swiss military' watches we bought for our store about 10 years back. They were nos and a lot of them were doa and a battery would not make them run so they had to have new movements. They had 'swiss made' on the boxes, dials at 6, and case backs (with 'Made in China' stickers on the bottom of the boxes). Inside were cheapo plastic Eta 805.xxx plastic movements. Inside the case backs they had 'Made in China' (printed in ink), on the backs of the dials they had 'China Made' (printed in ink), and the bracelets had 'Made in China" stamped on them. The watches were all steel, high quality 'swiss' watches...but mostly made in China. Wenger has moved upscale quite a bit since then but I bet they still use a lot of parts made in China.

From wiki:

A watch is considered Swiss, according to the Swiss law if:

• its movement is Swiss and,
• its movement is cased up in Switzerland and;
• the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland

A watch movement is considered Swiss if:

• the movement has been assembled in Switzerland and,
• the movement has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland and;
• the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 60 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.

The Raffles dial just about makes up for the calendar spacer and I sanded quite a bit off the Raff dial but it still makes the stem a hair out of center in the case tube on a 2824. When the stem is just a little bit out of center in the case tube the slack in the crown clutch will still allow everything to screw down Ok. What JMB said about gluing the dial to the spacer sounds better than what I did so I may save the JMB cases and stick this double dial project in a 2836 case if I can find one with lug holes or maybe put it all back in my 16200 case. The Eta 2836 is a good fit in the 16220 case.

I will update with any progress but it may be a while because spring has sprung and I am covered up with house/yard projects.

For a few years I had a '1016' made up using a genuine 16220 case with a 1570 and it was Ok but I always worried about killing the genuine movement so I cut the dial feet off and stuck the dial on a swiss Eta 2846 and put it in the case. All was fine and dandy until JMB came up with a much better looking case. So...I bought a couple cases and went to work. The problem is the oem spec '1016' dial is 27.9mm and the JMB case has a 29.2mm dial seat making the dial a loose fit in the case. I do not like having dial alignment depend on unreliable 'dial dots' to hold the dial centered on the little sheet metal calendar spacer without the benefit of dial feet. Not good imho because it only takes .5mm (or less) 'dial slide' to jam up the hour wheel and/or hour hand hub when they rub against the edge of the dial center hole.

What to do? I read where someone said to cement the top dial ('1016') to a Raffles Time etc dial with Eta dial feet and put it all together. Good idea. Today I sanded the lumi dots and paint off of a 29.0mm Raffles 'mil sub' sterile dial and cemented it to the '1016' dial using slow set heavy duty epoxy. So far it looks like a very good fix and I will put it all together in a few days after I c/o the 28xx, using case clamps and screws with the brass JMB spacer. No plastic.

The spacer supplied with the JMB case has an od of 29.15mm so it is a very good fit inside the 29.2mm dial seat.   The oem spec '1016' dial is 27.9mm.  The '1016' dial is from 'Stilty' about 10 years ago, is of unknown origin and has slightly smaller numbers like the older models did.   The dial seat inside the JMB case is 29.2mm.   The Raffles dial od is 29.0mm.

All in all this may be a good way to go.

But...there is one big catch and I bet all you sharpies already caught it...

The 16220 project mentioned above used an Eta 2846 and the JMB '1016' case is made for an Eta 2824 (that's one reason why it makes such a good '1016').  So now I have to change all the 21600 bph parts from the 2846 into an Eta 2824 along with the taller CP etc.

Nothin' to it.