automatico

"if i have well understood, i can install old datejust bars (0.9 mm) without mod?"

Yes, as long as the holes in the lugs are somewhere around 1.0mm.

edit:   "Also, someone else mentioned the Marathon springbars"

The Marathon spring bars look like a good option too.

"I wonder if spring bars for Rolex datejust 16014 will fit into the stock case?"

Yes they will work. They are .9mm at the tips and the tube is 1.8mm in diameter. One tip has a 1.25mm shoulder and the other end does not, it's .9mm all the way. The shoulder should rest against the inside of the lug but if the lug holes are a little bit oversize, the shoulder may go into the lug and cause the tip of the spring bar to stick out of the lug and you will need to trim it.

Submariner spring bars have 1.2mm tips and 2.0mm tubes so I usually drill lug holes out to 1.3mm to make a little extra 'wiggle room' because many (if not most) hood/bracelet combinations are not made to exact spec...1.2mm is too tight, 1.25 will work if everything lines up but 1.3mm makes it easier to r/r bracelets. You can also slightly taper the lug holes on the insides of the lugs when using submariner spring bars to help guide the tips into the lugs but do not taper them when using DJ spring bars. Do not cut any taper at all on the outside holes in the lugs and polish any burrs left on the outsides from drilling by sanding the sides of the lugs with 600-1000-2000 etc wet or dry sandpaper under running water with the sandpaper folded over or glued to a flat, rigid sanding stick. Also be careful not to sand into the bevels on the lug tops.

A small flat aluminum bar about 10 or 12mm wide, 5 or 6mm thick, and 100 mm long +/- makes a good sanding stick as it is flat and rigid. You can usually find aluminum bar stock at Home Depot, hardware stores etc. Do not use steel as it will really put a gash in a case if you slip.

All my MBK cases needed to be drilled and if you drill the lugs out, make sure none of the holes are too close to the bottom or top of the lugs. MBK cases are really good about being centered but it is always something to look for. I have seen a lot of cases ruined by enlarging lug holes that were already too close to an edge.

"What's the diameter on the 127?"

I measured a regular genuine 127 at the base and it is 30.4mm...not mounted on a case. When you push it down onto a case it will expand a little bit. It tapers to about 30.0mm toward the top.

"+1 on wso 580 endlinks, they are a perfect (ish) fit on stock Mbw case." 

I put a set on an MBW 5513 case (exactly the same as an MBW 1680 case) and had to bend the outer ends of the curved top down a bit so the tips would not rub the rotating bezel...this in effect caused the end link to push away from the mid case a little bit causing the spring bars not to fit through the tubes in the hoods and into the case. So...I had to grind the entire curved top edge of the end links to allow them to move toward the mid case a little bit and after a tweak here and a tweak there, I finally got a good fit. Perfect (ish) is right...but they are the best I could find.

On DW cases I use end links with the tubes removed to save all the fitting hassles. DW cases (the ones that do have numbers/letters) are engraved where MBK cases are laser etched so the top rows of MBK letters will probably disappear quickly with loose end links. Here is something to think about...DW cases are not very true to form compared to a pristine genuine case or new MBK/Yuki/Phong case but they do look quite a bit like a 35 year old genuine case that has been beat up and polished a few times leaving rounded case sides and no lug bevels. They look a lot more to me like an old watch than a new one.

"The bad news is for some reason my Athaya 702 crown is MUCH bigger opening for crown tube. So it wasn't a straight forward swap for the 1665 MBW case. It seems though that the others such as the 5513 that Delaforce another member did was perfect fit..."

The case tube threads where the tube screws into the case are 2.95mm to 3.0mm and the threads where the crown screws on are 4.95mm to 5.0mm (genuine spec). On the MBK cases I have, genuine spec case tubes screw into the cases just fine, same for DW, Yuki, and IG44.

Just a heads up if you have not mounted hands before...do not force hands on the hubs if they feel too tight or do not want to start on the hubs because many aftmkt hands do not fit on the first try and you may have to slightly resize them.  If they do not fit, look on the internet under 'resizing watch hands' or something similar to see how it is done. I usually make 'broaches' out of pins and needles and grind or file three or four flats on the end to make a tapered broach to remove a bit of metal from the hand holes. Second hands are the hardest to fit because of the tiny holes in the tubes and you need to be extra careful not to bend or break the sweep second post. I generally make a broach out of a small pin or needle for second hands too. When using a tapered broach, always bore the hands from the bottom side and try them on the hubs often...too big is worse than too small when it comes to watch hands.  

Closing hand holes is another story and not as easy but usually the problem will be hand holes too small.

"hate to burst your bubble but i dont think a geiger counter can detect tritium. radium, yes."

You are probably right, tritium does not emit much radiation. I read about the detector on another watch forum. Chances are all it might do is indicate a radioactive substance is present and that will suit me. I'll post the results after I try it.

Regarding the 'no glow' 1016 dial in the Parts FS area...rwc was just starting out making their own dials when they made the T-25 Lumi 'transition' dials so maybe they did not get a proper mix with the Luminova on some of the dials or it might even be tritium but it would need to be tested...who knows?

 I have some new genuine 1675 and 1019 hands in packs with LUMI stamped on them so I guess they marked everything during the changeover so they could tell Lumi from tritium at a glance. I also charged up a couple sets of 1570 ST submariner hands and the color is a little bit paler than the 1016 Lumi dial but still pretty close. These hands are marked 2013 (I usually try to mark dates on parts) so they are probably same as what is available now and supposedly use Luminova for filler. They are finely made and have a slight curvature in the center hub. My guess is they are made of plated brass and this is fine because rolex submariner hands were not made of gold back in the 1960s/1970s anyway far as I know.

I have some hands that I do not know if they are Trit or Lumi so I bought a little radiation detector that works with an Iphone but have not tried it on anything yet and I hope the detector can sort them out. I had a set of H-M-S hands marked 'tritium' in the box with the Lumi 1016 dial but could not find any H-M-S sets of Lumi merc hands, only the 1675 four hand set and 1019 hands. I doubt if the glow from trit hands matches Lumi hands because the rolex Lumi glow has a lot of green in it. Many genuine rolex watches that came with trit dials may have had the hands swapped out with Lumi hands during service and still have a trit dial if it was in good condition. The lume in my trit dials/hands glows whiter than the Lumi dials/hands so maybe the glowing color match is really not so important as they look pretty close when not charged up.

Tritium color change...I bought a new 16760 GMT II in 1989 from a local AD (30% off = $1465), never wore it and put it away until 1995...when I took  it out  of the box the lume in the hands had yellowed but the lume in the dial markers was white as new and it was all tritium. It looked awful but was still same as new. Sold it for $1900 as nos in November 1995. Now they call them 'Fat Lady' and sell them high, even when they are beat up with the tritium falling out.

I have some 10 or 12 year old watches with Luminova and the filler looks about the same as it did new, at least it stayed the same color on markers and hands.

Radiation detector eBay item number:  191473650729

Re blast from the past...

Today an Ellipse could pass for a lady watch when worn on a leather strap. I had one (18kyg) in 1998 on a full size integrated bracelet with the manual wind cal 23-300 and it looked like new but I only paid scrap gold value for it from a watch trader (he did not think much of them either). Imho it was not much of a watch...the 23-300 is fragile as a raw egg and the size of the watch was out of style even back then. Since I do not wear this type of watch and do not care much for Patty Philly watches I traded it even for a nib rolex 16233 with a diamond dial.

When I got the watch I had it c/o and ordered a new sapphire crystal and 18k crown for it from H Stern in NYC (had a connection back then) but did not put the crystal or crown on it and still have them in the box they came in...need to put them on eBay. Unless a common PP can be purchased cheap enough to flip, I would pass on them especially since parts are not available, 'factory service' is absurdly priced, and imho they are too fragile to wear outside the house. Like I said before...I consider them to be Country Club or Pimp watches.  

Questions that need to be asked on old quartz watches like this:   1...How much will it cost to repair it?   2...How much is it worth after repair?   3...Is it going to be reliable considering the lack of parts and skilled repair?   4...Is it an 'in demand' watch that can easily be sold when the time comes?

Answers (imho):  1...A lot.   2...Not much.   3...Probably not.   4...No.

Unless the case is solid gold, like new, and cheaply priced...I would pass on it. Lost cause headaches are a dime a dozen.

I have three mid to late 1970s quartz watches in this category that I have held on to for years. Here is why I kept them:   1...One is nos and two are 'like new'.   2...They all are solid gold.   3...They all were running when put away.   4...They are all Bulovas so there may be parts floating around.

Are they desirable and easy to sell?   No, the only things going for them is they are solid gold (I bought them far below current gold prices, around $150 each), and the fact that being Bulovas, they are not worth much more than the gold content so I can put a non Bulova movement in any of them without lowering the selling price much, if at all.   Otoh, the GP has value only as long as it is all original and running.

The same 4 questions above applied to the Bulovas:

1...Very little.   2...Depends on gold prices (Bulovas usually have the heaviest gold cases of them all).   3...They will be reliable.   4...Always easy to sell at the current gold price, maybe sell for more as a dress watch.

"What does the last sentence imply?"

I decipher it to say any of the 7mm tubes mentioned will fit the same case but the correct crown for each tube must be used. If I did not know this, I would have no clue what the dildos were talking about. It was written like their warranties.  

"So in other words the MBW uses "gen spec" 703-type-crown-tube and therefore a 700-"gen spec"-type-crown tube should fit without having to be retapped..."

I remember reading a few times where a case needed retapping for the Athaya case tube but do not remember details. I have two MBK cases with ST or TC case (can not remember now) tubes in them and first I tried genuine case tubes to make sure the threads were Ok and finally used ST/TC tubes because they are basically the same and a lot less $$. The third MBK case still has the tube that came in it.

I have four 'brands' of aftmkt submariner cases...DW, MBK, Yuki, and IG44. All four have the correct oem type threads in the case but the DW and MBK cases do not accept oem gaskets between the case and case tube. I did not try gaskets on the Yuki and IG44 cases, I only tested the threads.

Comments on the four 'brands' of cases I have (imho):   DW 5513/1680 (both are exact same case, 1680 spec)...a lot has been written about them (some of it not so good by others and myself) but after a couple years I have decided they are not so bad after all for 1680 projects because of their cost.   MBK...fine for Eta projects or 1680 projects using genuine 1570/75 after the case has been modified to accept a 26.5mm dial.   Yuki 5512,5513...no complaints at all and fine for Eta or genuine movement projects.   IG44 1680...very good fit and finish, a notch above Yuki etc. Have a 'canoe' shape when viewed from the side similar to some earlier genuine cases I have seen pictures of. The canoe shape disappears when worn.   MBK are the only cases of the four with a gasket groove in the top of the case although none of mine had gaskets installed. 

Maybe someone else who used a genuine or genspec case tube in an MBK case will chime in because I figure they all probably have oem spec case threads.

Word for word from an original rolex repair bulletin:

(any typos are mine)

The tubes Nos. 5330 and 7030 with the crowns Nos. 530, 603, and 703 compose the new OYSTER TUBES AND CROWNS assortment.

The tube No. 5330 bears a crown No. 530 or 603 according to the reference of the case. The tube No. 7030 bears a crown No. 703. The tubes No. 5330 and 7030, as also the tube No. 6010, have the splines cut in the crown side part of the tube.

The splines must not be reamed out any longer and can serve for unscrewing.

Etc, etc.

Finally and most important to this discussion:

The tubes with old type splines Nos. 5300 and 5310 can be replaced by the tube No. 5330, the tube No. 6000 by the tube No. 6010 and the tubes No. 7000, respectively No. 7020, by the tube No. 7030, for as much as the crown No. 700, respectively No. 702, be also replaced by the crown No. 703.

"A question to Athaya afficionados... Does the 700-crown and the tube on MBW 5512 work together or is the tube + drill + retapping needed?"

I have never used an Athaya crown or tube but have tried a genuine 7000 tube in an MBK case and it fits Ok. This is because the later 7030 case tubes are direct replacements for the earlier 7000 tubes so any case that will accept a 7030 case tube should accept a 7000 tube. This being said, if the case has to be tapped to accept a genuine spec 7000 or 7030 case tube there is something wrong somewhere. I would not retap an expensive case that a genuine spec 7030 tube fits just to fit a 7000 aftmkt tube because there is too much chance of ruining the case threads.

Note on MBK cases...the three I have are not machined exactly like genuine where the gasket fits between the case tube and case. I had to use some other gasket but do not remember what it was.

Going by those prices, you could r/r two 5.3mm case tubes a day and make $50,000+ a year working a couple hours Monday through Friday with one month off.

"With this other one it may have a damaged set lever or yoke and the date wheel needs to come out as it has serious keyless works problems which I did not recall upon receiving the watch."

Sounds like the set lever was simply shoved out of place by stuffing the stem into the movement when in winding position. "Serious keyless works problems"  is always a good excuse. It is hard to break anything in the 28xx etas.

Anyone who claims to be an 'experienced' watch repair guy and can not get a date wheel with dw overlay off and on an Eta 2836 without damage needs to park his screwdrivers. The problem is usually the dw overlay being loose to start with and coming off either before or after the watch was worked on. This is usually not the fault of the repair guy. 

The trouble spot...you have to be very careful because the screw under the edge of the dw overlay that holds the thin silver colored plate to the movement can jack the dw overlay up off the date wheel or bend the overlay when removing it...this is with 9mm off center dw overlays. The screw that holds this plate down has a large diameter skirt on it so a smaller diameter screw head might help. Normal 10mm offset dw do not have this problem.

"being just a "tinkerer" I can't get that a professional cannot just do it..."

You would be surprised at the 'pros' who can not or will not do this type of work. I started out working on junk and it prepared me for this type of 'jaybird engineering'.  Ha!  

Btw...I still work on a lot of junk.

My take on the rolex...

"Who'd wanna buy a steel no date sub for over $10K?" ...when you can get a TC 16610 for under $600.

Condo = a con man after your dough.  

All kidding aside now might be a good time to buy a condo in Canada. 

You might use 550 jubilee hoods made for a GMT as the case is thicker than a DJ and the 550 hoods are made for 2mm springbars. Do not know if these hoods will work on earlier jubilees though as some I have seen had wider center links...C&I maybe?  You can spread the center links on later model swiss jubilees to accept the 2mm springbars. My 1675 is original and came with a jubilee when new with swiss made bracelet with solid end links and 550 hoods.

"do prefer the yuki dial above the mbw"

Me too. Also prefer the watch as a rolex. Fine looking watch btw.

Get Back Loretta!

'Dis po' dam Fool done been robbed!

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1454557075/last-1454676680/View+All

"the last time I tried, the raffles caseback does not fit the cartel cases"

"try Automatico on this forum. He has raffle Tudor casebacks"

I finally found one toot case back from marrickvilleboy and it has 30.4mm threads and is 35.9mm od. There is no gasket groove in the case back and it will only fit cartel cases with the gasket mounted in the case. I had it on an old 'Abay' submariner case from about 15 years ago that I am eventually going to make into a tudor of some sort (yeah sure). I have a genuine tudor (no date?) dial but iirc it was too small for the Abay cases (as usual I can not find it). I thought I had more toot backs than just this one but that was all I found. The other Raffles case backs I found are unmarked on the outside and have polished backs like regular 5513 etc. They are all the same sizes as the Raffles toot back and fit my Abay cartel cases. 

For comparison I have an Abay 'comex 5514' from back then and the '729' case back has 30.4mm threads, same as the others but is 35.4mm in diameter, .5 mm less than the Raffles backs and most other Abay backs. It looks like most of the cartel (Abay was cartel) cases were alike back then. I still see 729 case backs on some watches for sale today but there is no way to tell if they have the same dimensions as the one I have.

Guess what else I found while looking for case backs?   Six (6) brand new replica submariner hollow mid link bracelets with 'sideways' coronets on the clasps. I will keep them for now and put them in a box marked 'sideways coronets' so I can keep up with them...had no idea I still had them. Also found a few new Abay submariner cases with working oem spec helium valves. I compared a valve from one with a genuine valve and they are the same, keeper spring and all. A trip down the memory lane of damn replicas! Ha! I need to take a picture of all this stuff and post it on VRF. They would form a lynch mob.   

This is good news! I hope the Daytonas with sec @ 6 get this movement. The bad news is sellers will claim all their watches have it.

"Will this gen 3135 (dwo) work with my sw220/2836?"

It should if there is enough room between the date wheel overlay and the dial...the sw220/Eta 2836 has more room between the date wheel and dial after the day of the week works have been removed than 2824 date only movements. You can find the details by searching the rolex forum.

For example, StoneP has one similar to your project for sale. Look at the parts list.

https://rwg.cc/topic/182483-franken-datejust-16014

'MMM' insert = mymanmatt dwo.

"My friend that I see weekly, if not daily, worked for rolex when they were in new york. He was there for 17 years doing service every day. Some of the stories he tells about working at rolex would freak most people out."

I had friends in a rolex AD from the early 1970s through the 1990s and the owner and one sales clerk knew a lot of 'old timers' at rwc in NYC. I talked on the phone to a few friendly rolex mechanics, parts guys etc during this time and they were always willing to help. Also during the later part of this time I started seeing some botched repair jobs out of rNYC... movements not keeping time, screwdriver skid marks, tweezer pecks where they held plates down with sharp tweezers, movements loose in the case, dirt on dials, hands out of correspondence, dates changing an hour or two from midnight, gouge marks on cases and case backs, damaged gold bezels, fingerprints and scratches on dials, date magnifiers out of place, etc. This was the 'factory authorized' repair on watches that customers insisted be done by rolex NYC. The AD had two and a half inhouse watch repair guys during this time and one was 'super good', the other one 'very good', and the half (part time) was a half assed hack. I heard the hack was finally fired for stealing parts and charging for c/o not performed. The 'super good' repair guy told me customers who paid for c/o not performed were lucky the botch guy did not try to work on their watches. I am sure a whole lot of this still goes on...if the movement looks good, remove the aw assembly and dial, c/o the balance jewels, oil what you can get to, put some new gaskets on it, and ship it out. It will probably run for 5+ years and the owner never knows the difference.

I remember one time when a guy bought a brand new double qs yg Prez and wanted a black diamond dial. R NYC would not send one to the AD because of their 'new policy' so the AD had to send the watch to NYC for the dial to be installed. I looked at it when it came back...the case back and case sides were badly scratched, the dial had a fingerprint on it, and the hands were out of correspondence. They had called r NYC and r NYC accused the AD of doing all the damage...the watch had not been worn out of the store, it was only tried on. The AD had to eat the damage and sell it to someone else at a deep discount while having to order another watch from r NYC with a diamond dial factory installed.

Anyone else have any rwc horror stories?

"Does anybody know what the "T" denotes?"

My 'unpolished' F520117 16610 noobmariner has the T.  T for TX!  T for TN!  Period! 

...or maybe T for Taiwan?  

I always wondered how they numbered/lettered so many cases. Back in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s when they made a few hundred thousand numbered cases per year (with little automation compared to now), it would have been quite a job. The case backs are stamped and this only takes a whack! with a stamping machine but since cases have so many different number/letter combinations it seems like a huge job. Maybe an automated engraving machine of some sort was used.

I have seen quite a few numbers and letters that looked pretty bad so this may knock the automated machine theory out on 1950/1960/1970 cases because a machine should have done a better job. One guess is the letters and numbers are done fairly early in the case making process and since the cases are not finished or polished yet the machine operator doing the numbers/letters would not have to be overly careful. This may account for the shoddy job on some cases.  

I have also noticed a few numbers/letters on 1520/30/60/70 autowind plates look like they were done by hand. Others appear to be machine made.

Who knows?

I vote the skinnyest, sneakyest, stealthyest (are these real words?) member go to Switzerland and slip into the factory and find out.  

"Because there isn't a good one with functioning chronos. With the 7750 case is too thick and the movement is a timebomb waiting to happen. If you want a semi-accurate and reliable modern Daytona without building a franken, the 21j is the best way to go."

I took a 21j 'autona' with running sec @ 6 apart a few years back and froze the center sweep hand plus the 3/9 sub dials and left the sec @ 6 running and it ran Ok for the couple years I wore it every now and then. I used a lubricant called 'Dri Slide' (molybdenum disulfide in a light oil base) on the 'flying' sec @ 6 wheel arbor (axle) and ran fine. Now it is stuck after being parked for about a year and will not run so the light oil base that the MD is mixed with has either dried out or it is too cold (54F where it was stored). I placed the watch dial side down a couple inches above a 100 watt bulb for 10 minutes and it heated up and took off running. Maybe it was just too cold. 'Flying' wheel means there is only one bearing on the wheel arbor with no support on the other end at all. The sec @ 6 wheel arbor runs in a hole drilled into the brass movement plate with no jewel with the driven wheel rubbing on the plate. There is very little friction as this wheel is the last in line and does not drive anything. 

"The new 23j looks sharp, is this also a ticking time bomb like the 21j?"

My case and dial appear to be almost exactly like the white Puretime watch above with the same space between the 3 and 9 markers and reflector (rehaut). Replicas = I always say almost when comparing them so it is probably close to the same watch except mine has a plastic movement spacer. The case is 13.7mm thick and the crystal is claimed to be sapphire but probably MG. This watch is made for a strap and the hoods are made in one piece on a ring that clamps between the bezel and the top of the case like genuine. It is surprising how well they are made...except for the plastic spacer in mine. I wound it up and will see how long it runs.  

update... It ran for over 30 hours and keeping good time so the Dri Slide must be Ok for this type of project. The sec @ 6 wheel with the DS probably stuck from being parked so long plus the cool temperature.   

It is not a 'ticking' time bomb but it is for sure a 'sticking' time bomb.  

After the fake case 1680 fiasco on TZ last week and the posts about it on VRF I have decided some of these 'experts' are full of BS.

For instance...read this carefully then look at the back of the case around the CG in the picture...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1269763708/TIPs+to+Spot+FAKE+551X+n+1680+Sub+watch+cases..Pls+comment..%2B%2B

Then look at this red 1680 for sale at only $26000.00...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207673/message/1454128322/fs-+meters+first+1680+tropical+red+sub+with+box+and+papers+-+%2426%2C000

The genuine $26k case has some things that are claimed to be fake in the Orchi post. Also look at how far the CG extend over the crown compared to some other genuines.

After looking at this and many other similar posts I am not going to worry very much about modding a replica case to mimic a 'genuine' case because it seems the profile and details of a 'genuine' case are a moving target. 

The more I learn the less I know.  

"I thought about buying her full Gen.   But I have parts to build it, and honestly use Gen 3135 in DJ is not worth it."

I agree. Here's why:

I have owned quite a few genuine rolex watches since the 1970s and had few qualms about owning them until they cut parts off in the USA starting about 20 years ago. Since that happened, I sold all the modern models (except for a few) and concentrated on vintage 1530 base models because I had a stash of parts for them. The few modern watches still left are two with 3035, one with 3135, and two with 3130. I am not bragging, I am complaining. 

I also adopted a few new rules to go by since parts were cut off:  (1) I will not sell a genuine rolex watch to anyone I know. Why? Because when you sell a rolex watch to someone you know, they expect you to keep it running for the rest of your/their life. No kidding, this has happened to me many times.  (2) There is no way in the world that I will wear a modern rolex except to 'road test' it because I do not want it to break down while I own it.  (3) As far as I am concerned, genuine modern rolex watches no longer exist, except the five I still have.

What does exist (to me) in the wide, wide fk'd up world of rolex? Genuine lower tier vintage models with 1530 base movements, Frankensteins, and 100% replicas. Nothing else.

That being said, I think you are doing the right thing by not going genuine.       (it sure took a long time to get to the end)