automatico

"Times have definitely changed. My last Rolex purchase was a '66 Rolex 5512 - all original for $1200. And I bought it on RWG."

Good deal! I bought a 1675 from the original owner (purchased in late 1979) in March 2007 for $825. His brother has a 1655 purchased about the same time and I have first shot at it when he sells it...for about $2500 hopefully. I have over $2500 sunk in an ongoing 'lost cause' Phong 1655 case/dial/ with 1575GMT mvt project.

I find the best watch deals when I am not looking for them.

The 2836 is a little easier to install a date wheel overlay on (after the day of the week parts have been removed) because there is a little bit more room between the date wheel and dial. Many of the earlier replicas that had actual Swiss Etas in them had the 2836 because they were easier to source and easier to mount the dwo. Most of the Swiss 2836 in replicas had the day of the week parts removed and had only the date or no date.

To make a higher quality GMT than an Asian 2836 etaclone GMT, use a Swiss 2836 and buy an Asian etaclone 2836 GMT from eBay etc and use the etaclone parts to convert the Swiss 2836 to GMT. The Swiss 2836 GMT in replicas use Asian parts for the GMT conversion anyway. Sell the etaclone and get some of the $$ back.

Back before Swiss Eta movement prices went crazy, the 2836 sometimes sold for less in quantity than the 2824 for some reason. Probably not as much demand for them in legitimate brands. I remember buying new 2836 for $65USD for 6 or more and the 2824 was $75. Now the current 2836 price is $225 and the 2824 is $189 (from ST). The 2834 with the day of the week above 12 is $205, the 2892 is $299 to $349 depending on decoration, and the 2893 GMT is $389. The 2894 three register chronograph is $795, the 7750 is $399 (pretty good price), and the 7753 is $595.

Some of the China made Bergeon look-alike case back dies will not work on backs with recessed splines like the 6694 but seem to fit everything else Ok. The outside diameter of the die can be machined or ground down just above the splines to make them work. I have a set branded 'Tianjiu' and the 6694 die will not fit the case back.

"Hey R, I'd sure like one of those 2846s for $70 !"

I did not have the heart to say it was nos.      I paid $65 each for a few of them plus a few bucks shipping a few years back = about $70. I c/o one and removed the date guts for the '1016' project. They run fine but do not keep precise time when they get close to running down, a 2824/36 seems to keep better time when low on power. You need to keep them 'shook up'.

"The gen 162xx case is going to be a lot more than $150 now. Probably at least double. You also can't find a Stilty ring anymore as he's been gone for a long time."

The case has a small dent in the back and that is why it was not a whole lot of $$. When Stilty left town he sent me some extra parts along with some stuff I bought and there were a few of his adapter/spacers in it. Some of the generic brass spacers from Raffles Time etc can be machined to match them but you need a lathe.

"As for the 2846, I must have gotten lucky. I found two in Swiss Military donor watches for $30 each..."

Very good deal. It's strange...many times you can buy a complete running watch for less than a movement. Stranger still is what has happened to many brands of solid gold watches...a complete running watch will often sell for less than the case will bring for scrap.

If I was putting a '1016' together with an ETA movement, I would go with a JMB case. If I was putting a '1016' together with a genuine rolex 1560/70 I would go with a rolex 162xx case with lug holes drilled to spec. Cutting the lug tops down is an option but an expensive and/or time consuming option so I let it go. The 1570 will drop right in a 162xx case using a genspec dial. A genuine 160xx case is made for a thicker movement (3035) and is Ok for an ETA but is not a precise fit for a 1570. Genuine 160x cases are Ok but they are getting expensive and many are rough and/or badly corroded.

The 160xx cases are closer in profile than the 162xx cases but as I said, a 1570 is not a good fit in a 160xx case. I have a '1016' made using a 162xx case and an ETA 2846. It had a 1570 in it at first and I removed the 1570, cut the dial feet off, and installed the same dial using a 'Stilty' spacer and ST hands. It was a drop in fit. I used a GS 22 crystal and a ST smooth sapphire bezel machined to fit the 22 crystal along with an oem 6mm crown.

Here is approximately what the 162xx project cost with the ETA:

162xx case without bezel...$150  I've had the case a long time and they might be a little bit more $$ now.

dial...$110

hands...$15

crystal...$12

bezel...$15

used genuine crown...$25

ETA 2846...$70

Stilty spacer...$25

hollow link bracelet and hoods...$75

gaskets, springbars etc...$15

total...$512

If labor to c/o movement, machine bezel, drill lug holes, and put it all together were added it would probably be over $600. A rolex 1570 would add another $700 to $1000.

The same ETA powered watch with a JMB case would cost about the same, be just as good, and look closer to genuine.

I see no GMT parts on this movement. You might get skinned.  

Here is most of what is needed to convert a 1565/75 to a 1565/75 gmt:
#8038 - center second pinion 5.70mm
#8037 - Cannon Pinion 3.39mm
#8039 - hour wheel with double tooth 2.44mm
#8040 - 24hr wheel 1.41mm
#8035 - Calendar Wheel nut
#8036 - Date Jumper
#8006 - Yoke for cam
#8008 - spring for cam yoke
#8011 - stud for cam
#8030 - Center wheel with Cannon Pinion
#8034 - Calendar Wheel
#8011 - Stud for Cam
#7965 - calendar spacer

Q...What is hard to find?
A...All of it.
Q...What is almost impossible to find?
A...#7965 - calendar spacer
#8034 - Calendar Wheel
#8039 - hour wheel with double tooth 2.44mm
7965 usually goes from $200 to $500
8034 usually $200 to $400
8039 usually $200 or so

In the 1970s maybe...　

STAINLESS ROLEX SUBMARINER DATE
USA retail prices:

1973 $385
1975 $470
1977 $585
1978 $875
1980 $950
1982 $1175
1984 $1325
1986 $1575
1988 $1975
1989 $2500
1992 $2850
1996 $3350
2004 $4250
2005 $4525
2006 $5175
2008 $5850
2009 $6000
2010 $7250
2010 $7375
2012 $8500

8.3% AVG INCREASE PER YEAR

Submariner Price as % of average income...
1973 $7,580......$385        5.08%
1975 $8,631......$470        5.45%
1977 $9,779......$585        5.98%
1978 $10,556....$875        8.29%
1980 $12,513...$950        7.59%
1982 $14,531...$1,175     8.09%
1984 $16,135...$1,325     8.21%
1986 $17,322...$1575      9.09%
1988 $19,334...$1,975    10.22%
1989 $20,100...$2,500    12.44%
1992 $22,935...$2,850    12.43%
1996 $25,914...$3,350    12.93%
2003 $34,065...$4,250    12.48%
2005 $36,953...$4,525    12.25%
2006 $38,651...$5,175    13.39%
2008 $41,335...$5,850    14.15%
2009 $40,712...$6,000    14.74%

Price projections based on 8.3% annual increase...
2015 $10987
2020 $16369
2025 $24388
2030 $36335

I found all this somewhere on the 'net a while back.

The 25/26 jewel 1520 used in the 5513 Sub, Air King etc is exactly the same as the 17 jewel model except for jewels in the reverser pivots and jewels in the movement plate for the intermediate wheel of the autowind assembly. The same balance assembly with flat hairspring is used in both.

The chronometer grade 1570 is a bit different besides the jewel count as it has a different pallet fork, escape wheel and balance assembly with Breguet type hairspring. Jewels can be installed in place of bushings in the reverser pivots of 17 jewel models but they will not accept the same jewels as used in the 25/26 jewel movements but must use special order jewels with a larger OD. If a watch is worn for a long time with worn reverser bushings, the reversers will run partly out of mesh and wear the red anodized finish and wheel teeth. The intermediate wheel can also run partly out of mesh if the intermediate wheel bushings wear and this will sometimes result in worn or broken teeth on the intermediate wheel. You can tell when the bushings on the intermediate wheel are going south by looking closely at the reverser for swirl marks caused by the wheel running out of true. Intermediate wheel bushings can also be replaced with jewels so it is a good idea to replace them all at once.

The bushings tend to wear out on the autowind reverser pivots if they run dry or get dirty and it is better to replace worn bushings with jewels, not new bushings. Intermediate wheel bushings will sometimes show a lot of wear if the mainspring bridle does not slip freely against the mainspring barrel wall when fully wound. When the MS grease dries out, the MS bridle (friction slip clutch) will not slip easily against the barrel wall under full wind and all the winding rotor power ends up at the intermediate wheel and can break teeth off and/or elongate the hole in the bushings, especially if worn during conditions where vigorous activities cause high rotor inertia. This sometimes causes balance "knock" as well as wear or damage on various autowinding parts.

(The intermediate wheel transfers power from the autowind assembly to the mainspring and has a relatively heavy load on it.)

Another problem with all 1530 base movements (1570 etc) is that the mainspring barrel runs in the bare plate on the dial side...no bushing or jewel, (I guess they were trying to save 50 cents) The lowly Eta 2824 even has a jewel at this location and Rolex finally put a bushing at this location on the 3035 when it came out because they had to...the faster beat movement makes more MS barrel revolutions per day. If the dial side MS arbor hole on any 1530 base movement runs dry long enough it will wear the hole in the plate out of round causing the MS barrel to drag on the plate. This gives the same symptoms as a dirty movement or weak MS...low running reserve etc. It looks like the plate is probably too thin to install a jewel at this location if the hole wears out but a bushing might work if you can locate the exact center of the original hole. An elongated hole can be closed up a bit with a punch but this is not good practice.

Auto weight axles wear out and usually the first sign is when you can hear the rotor rattling when you shake the watch up and down a couple inches with the dial pointing up or down. They all rattle a little bit but a loose axle knocks louder so listen to one known to have a good axle and gib (rotor clip) first for comparison. Another check for worn rotor axles and/or broken rotor axle jewels is to remove the caseback and examinine the movement plate for signs of the winding rotor rubbing the plate. They all probably have the rotor hit the top plate now and then but when the axle gets worn out or a jewel breaks the wear will be easy to spot. The fix is a new rotor axle and gib along with one or both jewels if needed. I will not get into proper rotor axle removal but if some hack simply drives it out of the weight without cutting the rivet down they can damage the hole in the weight and the new axle will not be a proper fit.

Our clown and company administration claims we are at grave risk from 'global warming' and isis.

Ha, Ha. Half the nation is frozen solid and isis is thousands of miles away (except for all the wannabes living in the USA and other nations).

Meanwhile no one seems to notice the real dangers.

short term = the chief clown residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave along with his like minded assorted cohorts and minor clowns

long term = unbridled immigration and not keeping close watch on places like 'Dearbornistan' Michigan and other budding mini 'ghetto countries' within the USA.

The majority living in the USA did not vote the chief clown in. The majority of active voters did.

While the silent majority sat on its ass as usual.

We made it through jimmah carter so maybe we can make it through this goofball...but carter only had four years.

Agree with hh, the CG look like my MBK cases.

Imho MBK cases are pretty good. Make that very good.

Plus and Minus on 1030 vs Eta...

Plus:

1030 is what came in this model of watch

quite a few 1030 donor watches around

donor watch with corroded case/ratty dial is not much of loss to vintage rolex in general when parted out

aftmkt dials are usually made for 1030, not Eta

movement and any left over parts should hold value so not much $$ loss there

project watch with 1030 is worth a lot more than watch with Eta

Minus:

1030 is very expensive compared to Eta

1030 replacement parts are very expensive and hard to find compared to Eta

1030 is not very rugged compared to Eta

many 1030 are just about worn out

rotor bearings pn 7004 cause trouble and are near impossible to find

service cost is high on 1030

lost or stolen project watch with 1030 is a big loss

What would I do?

Probably decide on which class of watch I want to go with.

First Class = top of the line case, dial etc with 1030.

Second Class = lower $$ case/dial and Eta movement.

Another choice would be to put a Second Class watch together first for a few hundred bucks and decide if it is worthwhile to put a First Class watch together for a few thousand bucks.

Who knows, the swelling might go down after building the Second Class watch and you are happy with it and give up on a First Class watch, or you might learn enough to avoid future mistakes in building a First Class watch.

You are probably looking at $3000 or so for a First Class watch and maybe $500 to $1000 for a Second Class watch depending on how much you can do yourself.

The 'free' advice above is from putting 10+ Frankenstein projects together and learning an expensive lesson when I stalled out on a Phong case 1655 with genuine movement. Four years later it is past $3000 and still in the parts box while I look for the remaining few 'affordable' genuine 1575 GMT parts.

Always remember...'free' advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.  

Thanks, good idea.

I have a Stilty spacer but it is not big enough in outer diameter being 28.5mm.

The catch is the spacer needs to be bigger than the Bulova dial (28.5mm) so it will catch behind the 28.5mm date window to hold the dial/movement in place. I may make a spacer similar to a Stilty spacer but about 30.9mm in diameter so it will catch on the inside of the dial window. Then all that is left is to have two brackets laser welded inside the case for the case clamps. I have a scrap gold wedding ring that I bought to make the brackets.

If the crystal is OK with no hairline cracks I would let it go for now. Take a 10x loupe and look down through the side wall of the crystal where the inner bezel clamps the crystal to the case and look for cracks. This is where they often show first.

I have an aftmkt 18K DJ type case and need a dial for it. I can get by using an Eta 28xx, Bulova etc movement and had a Bulova dial refinished like a 'California' dial but it is 28.5mm and will fall through the dial window.

The dial opening is 28.5mm and the dial seat will accept a dial up to 30.9mm.

What I need is a dial 29.5 to 30.9mm in diameter.

One fix is to cement the Bulova California dial to another dial larger in diameter that will hold it in place and have a 30.9mm brass dial plate cut but it is .4mm thick and might make the hands too close to the dial but I could sand it down a little and it would probably help. Since the dial is made for a 1960s\1970s Bulova (date) 11BLACD there are no taller hour wheel/cp around for them although it does have the same date offset as rolex.

Does anyone have a dial from a DJ II that they can measure?

Modern 36mm QS DJ dials are 27.85mm.

This case has been in the project box since February 2001 and needs to be finished...29.1 grams with an 18k case tube and smooth bezel, no crystal. The case neck is 29.5mm so it will accept a modern acrylic or sapphire crystal...Cal dial with acrylic or modern type dial with sapphire.The smooth bezel is fairly thin so a taller sapphire bezel will push the case past 30 grams.

Crystals...

I have a few MBK cases and have had a lot of trouble fitting crystals on them. The case necks are both 28.2mm but the crystals are all over the place when the OD is measured after fitting them over the case neck. Some were too big (Clark 19) and some were too little (no name UFOs from various supply houses). Others were fine, GS PA 462-66 or PA 462-67 for example...but sometimes I had to swap the bezel sets around to get the best fit. One ended up with a GS PA 462-66 and Clark/ST bezel kit with the friction washer and it has a fine feel to it, the rotating bezel stays in place until you push down on it and turn it..just like a genuine watch when new.

Since I was making both into 5513 I was going with domed crystals and the crystal retaining bezels were either the stock MBK or Clark/ST. I did not try a genuine crystal because I only have a few and did not want to scuff the sidewalls up.

What I am trying to say is I had to try different combinations to come up with the best fit and all the trouble was caused by the crystals.

Over the years I have installed a thousand+ crystals of all kinds (not bragging but to qualify how I know about them) and have developed a 'feel' for how they fit. Sometimes I have lightly lubricated the inside diameter of the crystal retaining bezels with silicon grease to prevent scuffing the crystal but if the ring is loose at all it can come off, especially when r/r a rotating bezel but I never had any trouble on dress watches. You can also use dishwashing soap but believe me, that stuff can travel and it will get between the crystal and case neck in a hurry. Next stop is the dial, then the movement.

Very good job!

I have a pretty good 1016 dial.

Now you have the case.

I see another project in the near future.  

Imho  "Are we paying too much..."  depends on what you get.

1...Paying $400+ for a watch that arrives with a ratty movement or case flaw is a rip of course but paying the same amount for a watch that will run reliably for three or five years is not. After all, you willingly paid the price in good faith and planned to wear it for a few years.

Take the TC submariner as the 'top of the line' example...just about the only complaints I see are with the A28xx etaclone movement, not the watch in general. So the TC watch is not overpriced and buyers know ahead of the purchase about the hit or miss reliability of the Asian eta clones.

It seems they are not paying too much.

2...Otoh when someone buys a similar watch from the cartel etc with the same A-etaclone for maybe $200 less than a TC and it is not running correctly, did they pay too much?

Good question.

I say maybe. It depends on how much $$ it takes to fix it as sending it back to China is usually not a good option because of the expense, time in transit, all the infamous 'Black Holes' between other countries and China, plus the chance the repair job will be no good.

3...If you buy a watch from the cartel etc for $350 or so with a 'guaranteed' swisseta and it turns out to be doa or something...did you pay too much"

Yes.

4...At the lower end where someone pays $100 or so for a '21 jewel' powered watch they are taking a chance and should be content as long as the case, dial, and bracelet are Ok. There is not much hope for always getting a 'good' 21 jeweler. Everyone knows this, same as with the A-etaclones.

Did they pay too much?

Another good question.

My conclusion:

If you are willing to pay the price and the watch is Ok...you did not pay too much.

If you get a dud...you gambled and lost.

Pantographs are good!

A friend in the jewelry business has a Hermes panto with 30 sets of font and can duplicate rolex scribbling perfectly.

If he would.

But he can't/won't because he is "too busy". 

I bought a $39 set of fako Bergeon type rolex case back dies with a T handle to carry in the car and the 29.5mm die would not fit a genuine rolex case back without slipping if it was very tight. They came in a yellow Bergeon look alike box with some other B-name on it.

Ka-runch!  

My demag looks like it came out of a 1930s Frankenstein movie with a coil of copper wire painted with Glyptal and wrapped with cloth tape around an oval core of who knows what attached to a black painted block of wood. It has an on/off button that looks like it came from a telegraph ticker. Works fine but I am very careful with it. I paid $1 for it.

Zap!  

I read somewhere (VRF?) that the wobbly lines in the engraving between lugs were caused by worn font tracks in the engraving machine. Sounds reasonable.

I read a recent article in Europa Star about Eta supplying movements to outsiders and iirc it was around 2020 before they completely stop. Between now and then they cut a little off each year, now it is around 75 percent of what it was a few years ago

What many outsiders are really worried about is the supply of escapments because Eta aka Swatch aka FAR etc supplies about 90 percent of the whole industry. This will slow the Swiss clone makers down to a crawl unless someone steps up and goes into the escapement business in a big way.

Meanwhile there are enough Eta movements laying around to keep us hobby guys happy for 20 years...but the prices are creeping up.

As for 1030 rolex, iirc they are a lost cause and will soon be followed by 15xx movements when the supply of new parts dwindles down to nothing and donor watches and movements rise in price.

Twenty years ago I could buy a nice AK or OPD for $700. Now they are $1500 or more.

Ten years ago I could find a good 1570 or 1575 movement for $700. Now they are over $1000 and many are made up using discarded repair parts.

I agree on valuable dials, I would not cut dial feet off and would use a genuine rolex movement.

I have said this before but it might steer a new guy down another path and save them a lot of time and money...

After putting a few Frankensteins together using genuine rolex 15xx movements I have come to the conclusion that it is simply not worth the trouble and expense.

Why?

Because:

1...rolex movements cost too much today

2...parts are few and far between and cost too much

3...the movements are not rugged enough to live very long if the wearer is rough on watches aka "Raised on Quartz"

4...btw, 30xx and 31xx movements are not much better

I can put a watch on with an Eta movement and not worry about it but any watch with a rolex movement in it worries me to no end. I know many can say they have not had any trouble with genuine rolex movements but I can not. I have had a hell of a lot of trouble with them in the past 40 years. Not too bad when you could buy parts from supply houses but much different today when you have to bid against 20

people needing the same part on eBay.

The downside for me is now I have a few movements left without cases so I am in the process of buying a genuine case now and then for the movements. I have been on the lookout for 1002 etc cases to make 34mm "explorers" but they cost too much or have a big dose of corrosion.

You can get by selling a watch with a "refinished" dial but not with a replica case.

So...what am I saying?

Think long and hard before putting a genuine rolex movement in a Frankenstein watch.

Etas are better and cheaper for this type of project.

Stilty moved and took another job a few years back and must have decided to lay off watches for a while. Last time I heard from him was four or five years ago.

As for spacers, I have to make them myself now and it is slow work but I have learned a few things...

When using an Eta movement and the dial feet have to be removed, it is a good idea to make the spacer so it will support the dial as well as provide proper spacing for the movement.

Why?

So you can stick the dial to the spacer instead of the movement. This only works if the dial is bigger than the movement and the spacer is a precision fit on the movement. When the spacer is a precision fit on the movement and rises high enough to support the dial, it also eliminates the thin stamped calendar spacer used on Eta movements. It is also a good idea to have the case clamps apply enough pressure to the movement inside the case to hold the dial against the front of the case tight enough so it will keep everything clamped together. By making the spacer a close fit in the case it also eliminates the side to side movement caused by pulling the crown in and out to setting and winding position. If the dial and movement can slide back and forth inside the case it will soon scratch paint off around the edges.

Making a proper spacer may take as much time as any stage of the project.

The 2879 has the same dial foot position as Eta 2824, 2836, 2846 etc.

The movements used in many automatic Swatches have plastic pallet forks etc in them and are not known for long life. I would also go with an Eta 2846 like Tom Horn said.