automatico
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Posts posted by automatico
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"The case seems awfully thin. That will be a hard part I guess."
You can use a 34mm tudor replica case and sand the tudor engraving off the case back. Many will have a flat back like a 6694 etc. The one I have has a flat back with reference number 74033. The serial number is H107904 iirc. Acrylic crystals for 34mm 1960s/1970s manual wind rolex will fit.
edit: Here are a few links to a bunch of Commando pictures and it looks like the case is very close to the tudor cases I mentioned. You could use an eta 2846 etc (21600 bph), remove the autowind works and hand crank it. The autowind mainspring barrel and mainspring will be Ok, just wind it 15 or 20 rounds each day. It would be a good idea to lubricate the crown wheel/ring/hub with D5 or KT22 and make sure the stem is lubed with KT22 etc. There you go...except for the dial and hands.
http://www.ermitagejewelers.com/WatchView.aspx?category=186&ProductID=3275
http://blogs.christies.com/longitude/brands/rolex/rolex-commando-an-alternative-rolex/
Some have a shaded minute track:
If it was me...I would just go with a Yuki AK explorer dial, 2846, and a 1500 case...1500 cases are a bit thicker than a 5500 AK but they are everywhere and about half as much $$.
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Good advice: "The key to success will be risk management in not getting scammed on a runner or having one returned with damage."
An unfortunate fact: high grade genuine $wiss watches are very expensive to buy, easy to steal/pawn, fragile, and very expensive to repair.
If you are the one renting this stuff out...it will not be long before you are chasing deadbeats full time and/or end up with a bunch of beat up non running junk...not counting the watches that go MIA without a trace.
Besides all the above, most of the popular 'flash replicas' that will fool 90% of the Gomers 90% of the time are available below $500.
Believe me...I know all about chasing deadbeats, have a guy we call 'Guido'. Looks like a fire hydrant with hair.
Reality is a harsh mistress.
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"And if that is true, why is no one else tooling up some nice gen. spec cases and selling them for 200 or 250?"
I have been asking that question for many years. It would cost very little more to make an 'in spec' vintage type case than an 'out of spec' case.
"If I didn't mention it, yes, I'll drill the lugs to 2mm."
Make that 1.3mm. I have seen a few with 2mm whoppers and they looked like a toad frog with little bitty eyes.
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I know what you mean. I have had a LOT of trouble with genuine and aftmkt rolex rotating bezels over the years. A LOT!
That being said, I have had no more trouble with the ST/Clark bezels than any others and probably less than the run of the mill replica rolex type inner/outer bezel combos. I will say that all the inner and outer ST/Clark bezels I have worked with were within spec but occasionally spacer trouble was a real problem. It seems another spot that can cause much of the trouble is pressing the inner bezel down on a crystal that is too large in diameter or allowing the inner bezel to get out of true when pressing it on causing it to distort. Same with the outer rotating bezel, they are relatively easy to bend when r/r and very hard to fix. As for the spacer...I have had to sand many of them down to make them thinner and even had to reduce the outer and/or inner diameter on some of them.
Worked on a 1675 a few years ago that gave me fits (all genuine). The bezel was very tight in a couple spots and I ended up putting Simichrome polish all over the mating surfaces and turning the rotating bezel around a few hundred times while pushing down on it (wearing a thick rubber glove for traction) until it smoothed out, then cleaned it all off. Worked like a charm.
Edit...the reason why I posted this is because ST has raised their price to $89.95 (plus shipping) and Clark does not have them for sale very often.
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Here is the same bezel assembly as ST and Clark:
eBay item number 111799148267
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"Will the adapter rings we are talking about fit in the same way as it would for a slowbeat ETA you are mentioning?"
Yes, most modern ETA 28xx are the same diameter except for day- date models with the day of the week spelled out at 12...2834-2. Some of the older 28xx are a little but different too.
You can compare modern ETA at http://www.eta.ch/index.php?id=6&L=2
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"How do I know what all the parts I will need are to pull this off?"
The spacer ring you will need depends on the case and movement to be used. Many standard brass spacers used in replicas are 29.15mm od x 26.05mm id x 2.35mm thick...plus or minus a hair or two. I also have one that is 29.15mm id x 25.6mm id x 1.65mm thick but do not remember what movement/case combo it was used in. You can thin the standard spacer rings down to the thickness needed by sanding them down on 'wet or dry' sandpaper placed on a sheet of glass etc under running water using maybe 180 to thin it down and put a smoother finish on it with 400 or 600.
My Stilty Spacer for Eta 2836/46 is stepped on the outside...28.5mm on the back side and 27.45mm on the dial side. It is stepped inside as well...25.5mm opposite the 27.45 cut and 26.0mm opposite the 28.5mm cut x 2.25mm thick. This spacer can be sanded thinner for a no date movement if needed. I used one when putting an Eta 2846 in a genuine 162xx case to make a '1016' and it worked perfectly. The picture above shows the spacer used with a 1680 dial that would be 26.5mm so a spacer like I have may need to be cut down for this combination. Mine worked fine in the '1016' because the dial is bigger in diameter than a 1680.
The standard replica spacer is usually a good fit on an Eta movement and a little bit loose inside the average replica case (depending on the case). The Stilty spacer is precision made and is a very good fit when using an Eta 28xx in a genuine rolex case. I have an MBK '5513' case with a rolex 1520 in it and am going to put an Eta 2846 in it later using a Stilty Spacer. It may be a few months but I will post how it went on this thread. Keep in mind that all MBK 5513/1680 cases are the same and made for an Eta 2836 so a genuine 1530 base rolex date movement will fit but a no date movement will not unless you use a genuine spec calendar spacer and date movement center wheel, canon pinion, and hour wheel.
Freebie!...after all the hassles I have had with vintage type Frankensteins using genuine movements in all sorts of aftmkt cases, I would not encourage anyone to start out with a genuine movement Frankenstein project. Always start out with Eta or something similar.
Save genuine movement Frankensteins until after you have gone at least three fourths nuts screwing with Eta projects.
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"Do you have these cases and dials, bezel assemblies readily available, or are they only for your personal projects/tinkering?"
I will hang on to the cases and parts for now as I still have a few along with associated parts. They are basically just a cheaper alternative to what is available today but they are not too accurate without swapping parts, trimming CG, and drilling the lugs. Much of what is available today for $200 to $300 is superior but I already had these.
"I have No idea what an abay case is ."
'Abay', 'Pam111', 'Womart', 'Aspire', and a few other names were websites belonging to a guy called 'Paul'. He was famous for his 'Crazy Sale' offering watches with new swiss Eta 2836 for $159 and sometimes as low as $99. At the end of his run he was offering 'The Ultimate Sub' that was essentially the 'noobmariner' with a few (but not all) being the famous F520117.
For anyone not familiar with where the MBW/MBK names originated, here is the story from the other RWG posted by 'KBH' on May 18, 2010:
The MBW (Maria's Best Watch) was sold by a German chap named Maria, who was very difficult to deal with and get in touch with. This gave the MBW a cult following. This was, I believe, the first high quality Sub rep mass produced. Later someone found the source which was a dealer in the MBK shopping Center in Bangkok and blew the whistle on George's monopoly. The MBW was apparently from a factory that produced watches also known later as TWB (Taiwan's Best). By-tor did a comprehensive review on these two watches as did BKLM1234 which are available on other forums with a little research."
You can go to http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=5622 and scroll down to the post by "Mr Good Guy" and read a condensed version of the 'noobmariner' story. I was on TRC when all this came about but never got a vintage MBK case until I snagged a 5513 case from Freddy333 three or four years ago.
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Project story...
I put a low buck project watch together now and then and always end up using parts from three or four watches. Since I still have a few vintage style Eta 28xx watches from Abay I usually go with an Abay mid case and dial but change things around to make it more realistic. The dial windows are all 26.0mm so the only 'affordable' dial option besides the original is a Yuki etc 26.5mm 1680 dial. All the Abay dials...5513, 5514, 1680 etc are about 26.5mm so they will all work in any of the Abay cases. The main trouble with the dials is the printing is sometimes a bit dim and the markers at 3-6-9 are too narrow in the beam. One bonus is the Abay 5514 and SD have working oem spec helium valves.
All my Abay cases have two major flaws...the rotating bezels are non oem spec (they have no inner bezel and are simply stuck down over the crystal) and the case back gasket is cut in the case instead of the case back. They do have a good profile however and a completed project has a good look to it, they even have the 'tear drop' lower edge of the crown guard like genuine cases and absent in many replicas. The gasket in the case does not matter much and it allows a thinner case back while accepting low $$ cartel type case backs from Raffles Time etc. I have a few DW 'spring wire' bezel sets and since the Abay cases will accept oem crystals, I use the DW bezels with generic oem spec crystals to save $$. The cases have long, thick crown guards and there is more than enough metal to grind them to shape and the holes in the lugs are located so they can be bored out to 1.3mm without being too high or too low.
What all the BS above boils down to is by using a combination of parts, just about anyone can put together a pretty good watch for not much $$, but you can not be in a hurry. It will usually be quite a bit cheaper than a Yuki or MBK case project watch. MBK watches and cases used to be an option for low buck projects but not today. Besides saving $$, after completing a few 'budget' projects you will know more about the cost and headaches of watch projects and maybe not be as far upside down.
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"Roger that, I can dent the case back on my gen 1675 with my thumb."
The average 1970s 1675 case back is around .9mm thick in the center depending on wear. Just now measured a few repsub etc case backs...one new 'shitinerand' was .9mm, , another was .74mm. An unsigned '21 jewel' sub case back from a guy called 'Cal' 15 or 17 years ago was 1.15mm, this case is built like a Sherman tank with a hole in the case top at 12 with a coil spring and plunger that ratchets against notches machined in the spring wire mounted rotating bezel. These things are Nanuq proof. Maybe.
Checked a 10+ year old swisseta 'shitinerand' yacht-molester and it was .84mm.
A sapphire crystal Exp II swisseta case from 'River' 12 or 14 years ago was 1.55mm thick. An MBK 'polex' 5513 was 1.75mm, and a DW 5513 was 1.15mm. The case back with the best lettering in the assortment above is the DW.
A two year old 5513 case back from Yuki is 1.2mm thick and has the best lettering of the bunch.
...but everyone knows 'shitinerands' are still the absolute best because they are hand made by Elves in the small swiss alps town known as Gelena.
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Here is another one...this guy is claiming this is a GMT movement but it is a Day - Date movement. It even has DD in the serial number.
item number 381339809658
Edit...I noticed they finally changed the listing to a DD movement.
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On projects using a genuine D-D movement you would need a solid 18k case to make it worth the trouble imho. The problems are today's $1200 gold and high rolex prices making these projects no longer worth the trouble and expense. When done, they are basically only worth the value of the movement/dial plus the value of the gold in the case unless you can sell it to someone who will pay a premium for the gold replica case. It was much different in the late 1990s/early 2000s with $300 gold...replica 18k DJ and D-D cases were around $600 to $800 back then. Price one today. At today's prices, a project using a genuine movement and solid gold aftmkt case will not cost a whole lot less than a genuine watch purchased at a reasonable price.
Btw, you can change brands (get away from rolex) and still find bargains in genuine high grade watches in gold cases. I bought an E. Gubelin automatic in an 18kyg 'waterproof' type screw back case a couple years ago for $300, a little over half what the case will scrap for, and one of my 'knock around' watches is a 1950s 14kyg Bulova snap back case with a modern Disney MU1100 'Blue Sky' Mickey Mouse dial with goldtone dauphene hands and two hand quartz movement on a sharkskin strap. A solid 14k MM watch for less than $150 plus a couple hours work...and I can change it back to original in about 30 minutes.
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Have a blue dial PRC200 chrono on my desk along with red dial (!) 200M Citizen 221-11984 qtz dive chrono, Zodiac 'Ambassadeur' ZO4102 qtz chrono, plus about 50 assorted chronographs in the safe including a few swiss Val/Eta 7750/7753 watches and even a few Alphas with SeaGull ST19 and ST19 powered fako Speedys and Daytonas.
It's not that I do not have what I want...I just do not want what I have. It's a looong story...
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"Blimey mate...Quartz.. really... surprises me you would think of going for that in any of those..."
Yeah I know, I'm a turncoat. After many many years (too many?) wearing mechanical watches I am just about burned out on them. I will put a mechwatch on and try to keep it running (automatic) for a week or two then give up. The longest time I can remember wearing an automatic straight is probably a Frankenstein 5513 for a month or so. An old Zodiac Sea Wolf made it five days last week before hanging it up yesterday.
I like the SMP and since they make quartz models I thought maybe if I changed one over to quartz I might wear it. Today's watch is a Citizen Eco-D world time BJ9123-01A.
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I have three SMP including one 007 with good cases, bracelets, and dials but they have '21 jewel' movements. If I change the movement in one it will probably be to quartz since the dials look about the same and quartz is trouble free compared to the average mechanical movement. Maybe an Eta F06.111-3 or something but hands might be a problem.
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Day-Date cases have a different profile where the hoods/end links fit up against the case so you will need a case with the DD profile to start with. There are probably a lot of them around with non running DG, NN etc China movements so a case should not be hard to find but you might need to have a case clamp groove cut inside it. Dials are another matter because the 1803 DD has a 'pie pan' dial and afaik there are not many replica pp dials around and genuine dials are getting very pricey. Aftmkt 'redials' are not too much $$ on eBay though. It might be easier and cheaper to go with a later flat dial, quick set, sapphire model because they are available ready made.
I thought about a DD project and have a 1556 DD movement but no proper spec case. Have an 18k out of spec aftmkt DD/DJ case with proper profile that accepts oem crystals but the dial window is too big and no oversize dials are available. Maybe could go with a 30mm DJ II dial and an Eta in the 18k case if I ever decide to finish it. Should have scrapped it when gold prices spiked (29 grams). Oem spec gold cases cost too much so the 1556 is in a parts can. Genuine 1555/6 DD movements are easy to spot because they have DD at the beginning of the serial number.
Frankensteiner motto = No project is easy, some are impossible, and most are unaffordable.
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Quick way to tell fake from genuine is the fake has a common curb pin regulator above the balance...genuine does not.
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The crown should 'declutch' and not wind the watch when pushed down to the case tube threads and it is not doing this because the crown is faulty or the stem is too short and not allowing the crown to 'declutch'.
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I still see a few 'vintage' low grade 'Canal Street' replicas here and there and some of the owners are as proud of them as a Dad with a brand new Kid (Momma's baby, Poppa's maybe). Most are made out of flash plated recycled carburetor/hood ornament pot metal that fuzzes over when moisture hits it, and equipped with a $2 quartz movement. I call them 'Chicken Fight' watches because that is the only place I would wear one (just kiddin', I am not a chicken fight guy). Knew a guy who used to sell them for $8 each...rolex DJ/Prez, seiko, longines, gucci, movado, cartier etc. Submariners and '3 hand' GMT were $12 "Because they got more parts in 'em."
The equivalent today is a DJ or submariner with a china 21 jewel motor and a ratty dial with a far from spec steel case/bracelet at about $85. Guys wearing them usually claim they are gen-u-wine. Flawless for sure.
docthor:
"There was one thread some months ago, think it was on RWI but don't remember, where a long time member sold a nice looking 116520. And this sale got high jacked by an insistent newb who asked if the sec@6mod has been done..."
I have done a few of these modifications and imho just the mod alone is worth $35 or $40. It is not a quickie fix because working on '21 jewelers' is looking for trouble. 'Twenty ones' are like hornet nests...leave them alone and all is well. Poke around in one and you have Big Trouble.
Stephane:
"Indeed...we try to have everybody follow that simple rule: do not post in sale threads.
You are so right."+1
"But hey, when I look at my questions back then, 8 years ago, I feel I was ridiculous too."
Not me. I am no sharper now than I was back then.
What am I going to do with my 'collection' of Out of Date Noob Bait? It is fuzzing over except for the steel 'twenty ones'. They won't run.
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I sent a few things from the US back to China including two DW cases (when DW was more or less honest). All gone without a trace, nothing ever arrived...supposedly. My guess is they dump all incoming mail into a big hole in the ground.
It IS however one sure fire way for US residents to dispose of unwanted items, albeit expensively.
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It would be very difficult to machine threads on this case back. You would need to mount it in a lathe by the shoulder inside the case back, center it, make the proper cutting tool, have a perfectly timed automatic feed, and cut the threads from the base of the case back to the outside with zero mistakes. You only get one shot at it.
We see replica case backs and unsigned generic case backs for sale for $20USD and this gives the impression they are cheap and easy to make. Not true. The machinery needed to stamp the blanks out and machine the case backs is sophisticated and may cost over one hundred thousand USD.
I also have serious doubts about it being genuine.
Imho in its current condition, it is a $5USD case back. It should be valued at what it is, not what it could be.
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Ebel watches with screw on straps are a huge $$ problem when the strap wears out. I have two genuine steel and gold quartz Ebel Classic Wave watches with screw on straps and since both together are not worth as much as one new strap sells for, I ground the screw brackets off and drilled springbar dimples inside the lugs. After polishing between the lugs with Cratex they look like they came from the factory this way. Since I only paid about $40 each for the watches I did not mind modifying the cases. This is not an option on the BTR but is a viable option on cheap watches. You can also substitute a $65 Eta 256.031/2 for the $300 Ebel Classic Wave movement when they go dead...it is not a drop in but not too hard to do.
I also have a quartz steel and gold Ebel 1911 time and date watch with a dead movement (Cartier calibre 87) and it will soon be getting a substitute quartz Eta of some sort in place of the high $$ cal 87. I am not a 'Purist' when it comes to quartz watches. If they look the same on the outside, it does not matter to me what is on the inside.
The bottom line = I do not feel bad about modifying genuine quartz cheapos but a genuine BTR is another story. It is going to be expensive to buy a new genuine strap, no way around it. Otoh if the watch is a replica...there are no rules, anything goes.
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"I thought that the pearl should be replaced by unobtainium glue which counter effects and neutralizes any nastiness leaking out of the hole."
Use clear unobtanium glue. Black and white will leak. If you wear a baseball cap with the bill turned down over the left ear while under water, any color will work...except clear (but only in salt water).
How much wood...
in The Rolex Area
Posted
could a woodchuck chuck,
Poster: "He is an independent CW21 watchmaker with a Rolex parts account. He has over 30 years experience and has serviced over 10K Rolex watches."
The guy who did it: "I average over 600 watches a year times 30 is 18000 watches, a good watchmaker can service 3 to 5 movements a day just in case you wanted to know."
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=431991
...if a woodchuck chukked all day?
A friend had a repair shop and he could turn out about 3 automatic calendar watches a day if he stayed at the bench 8 hours, not counting breaks. But...he had a helper (sometimes two counting me) who removed the movements, looked them over, took them apart, put them in an L&R Ultramatic Ultrasonic cleaning machine, and put them on the bench after they were clean and dry. When a movement was back together it had to be timed, dial/hands fitted etc while the case/bracelet work had to be done (plus steam cleaning) by the helper and ready for the movement. If the movement needed extra work (trouble shooting, balance staff, straighten hairspring, tighten cp, replace rotor axle etc) the repair took a LOT longer. As for case work...changing case tubes and crystals, cleaning bracelets, inspecting everything etc takes more time plus a pressure test or two. If one guy c/o a modern submariner plus all case work by himself from start to finish, they would be very lucky to get one finished per day with no snags at all...and 2 or 3 cans of Red Bull (imho).
If it was the NN2813...maybe one a week.