automatico

"Unless you are an expert in Rolex case stamping, it is unlikely you or almost anyone viewing your watch in the wild will be able to tell a steel gen case from the average rep."

"Dials are a different story because even the most expensive aftermarket dials still contain errors compared to their gen counterpart." 

 

Agree 100%.

 

Looking back...

The best replica cases I have owned are:

Yuki 5512 from May 2014.

Yuki 5513 from May 2014.

IG 44 1680 from around 2011.

David Wong 'DW' 5513 & 1680 from 2010.

MBK 5512/5513/1680 from 2012.

Never had a Vn case.

 

Which case is the best for accuracy and quality?

The two Yuki cases but they are new so they will not pass as the real deal in new condition. 

The letters and numbers are very good too.

 

Which case is the most convincing?

The 'DW' 1680.

Why?

Because it has a genuine Lemrich 'Mark 1' dial.  The dial is the fooler, not the case.   Many other cases would suffice.

The DW case has slightly rounded case sides like an old watch might have after a few polish jobs...in other words, it looks the part.  

It also has a Rolex 1575, but it does not show and a slow beat ETA would be just as good.

It all boils down to a very good dial, a pretty good case, and a good period correct bracelet.  Imho.

 

There is always a catch, what is it?

All the cases above are out of production.   

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

"I have done some Seiko mods from part up to full build, so i think i might have some of the techniques down."

 

Modifying Seiko watches is a good start.  Vintage Rolex watches have a few main differences though...case tubes screwed into the case, crystals held on the case by a pressed on bezel ring, case clamps/screws holding the movement in place etc. 

 

"I would like to try my hands at a Submariner. Preferably with a gen case and gen dial."

 

If it was me...I would start out with an aftmkt case and dial because a genuine 5513/5512/1680 etc. case and dial will end up costing $3 to $5 thousand USD.  Besides that, the case may end up being a piece of heavily corroded junk...or laser welded to the max.  Simply not worth it and most experienced project builders would probably agree, myself included.

 

"It seems like a lot of builds do not use gen cases and i cannot figure out why not? Is it availability / price of parts? Or is it because rep parts are so damn good?"

 

Same answer as above.

 

"I’m also trying to figure out what would be a good ref to start out with in terms of gen part availability + rep parts compatibility / availability. Preferably i would like a vintage model like the 5513, but i am guessing the newer models have much more fairer prices, is that assumption correct?"

 

If 'newer models' = 16600/16610 etc. the answer is most likely yes.  'No date' models of the same era also make good projects...but the case is not exactly the same as a 16610.

Almost no one will notice the difference though.

Two of the easiest vintage projects are probably the '1016' and '5513' mainly because of the large supply of aftmkt parts being available.

With the '1016' there is no date or rotating bezel to screw with, plus they have a simpler bracelet.

Same goes for the '5512/13' having no date but they have a rotating bezel and more complicated bracelet.

 

ETA 2879/2846 etc. are good slower beat (21600bph) project movements.

Rolex 1530 and 1560 are 18000 bph and later 1520/1570 are 19800 bph.  Very hard to tell 21600 from 19800.

 

Movement info...

bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements (ranfft.de)

 

Here is some info on a few rabbit holes I have fallen into...

Building an MBW Sub + 'shortcut' rlx 1560/70 GMT conversions... - The Rolex Area - RWG

 

Executive Decision... - The Rolex Area - RWG

 

A-tron 214...

With a View!   

quote...

"So , if you can't tell the difference between a $500 replica and a $18,000 plus original, is there really a difference?  In the case of a few brands, even experts can't tell."

 

Rolex Watch Market Remains In Bust Cycle  | ZeroHedge

Rolex 5500 AK with case dated III 68...

Cleaned/oiled/mainspring/case tube/crystal/blued steel SS hand/gaskets/ZRC strap, finished 5-23-23. 

No case corrosion...it is getting hard to find a 50+ year old steel Rolex watch case with no corrosion.

Dial and hands are in first class condition.  

Crystal is a GS PA 459-37 (generic Tropic 11), case tube, ZRC strap, and oem spec spring bars from ST,  Blued SS hand from S. LaRose years ago...SS hand has pointed tip on short end to match pointed tips of H and M hands.  Aftmkt steel buckle.  

 

Movement is a 26 jewel 'hack' 1520 in excellent condition.  It has a date type canon pinion and hour wheel with the calendar drive gear removed.

Why?

To give more space between hands and dial.  The short no date CP and H wheel mount the hands close to the dial and the date type CP and H wheel combo mounts them about .5mm higher.  The domed crystal gives plenty of room for the hands to mount higher.  

 

 

Later in the day...

f333 and jackflash:

Thanks!

"Keep in mind that if you ask 10 watchmakers their procedures, you are likely to get at least 6 variations back. Over time, most tend to learn what works best for their needs & level of perfectionism."

 

True!

I learned from the best around where I live and each one had different methods on some procedures. 

The pocket watch guys I knew always pegged jewel holes because:

1...They tend to gum up with dried out/dirty oil and since the movements are 'air cooled' they collect dust, lint, and small insects.

2...The jewel holes are usually big enough to get a sliver of peg wood in and out.

 

I am just a 'hobby watch botcher' and can legally take shortcuts.  Ha!

5-22-23

I am adding this post about cleaning and oiling shock protected balance jewels so it will not get buried:

 

"Do any of you that service your own movements also clean both pivot holes of where the balance staff sits in with peg wood after rinse?"

 

I have also seen instructions that say to 'peg out' all hole jewels but I usually skip that part because I use an ultrasonic cleaning machine and have not had any trouble going this route.

 

I had three different master repair guys show me the ropes years ago and each one cleaned and oiled balance jewels on watches (with shock protection) basically the same way. 

Here are the basics:

1...Remove the cap/hole jewels.

2...If they are gummed up or stuck together, soak them in a solvent of some sort for a while until they come apart.  I use acetone because it is cheap.  'One Dip' will also work but it is expensive.  Btw, dry cleaning fluid (tetrachloroethylene) will also work, it is basically the same thing as 'One dip" used to be...if you can find it.

'Used to be' = the 'One Dip' formula has probably been changed because of the EPA.

3A...Put the jewels back in their shock settings and run them through the cleaning routine with the rest of the parts.

3B...Leave them out of the movement, put them in a small, fine wire mesh basket and clean them in a cleaning machine along with the other parts (cleaner and two rinses).

4...Let the jewels dry naturally or hot air dry them and inspect the cap jewel for chips or a glaze from oil etc.  Check the hole jewel for cracks, gummy deposits etc.

5...Rub the flat side of the cap jewel over a clean business card etc. to remove any film left by the cleaner/rinse.  Be careful not to dig into the card and create dust that may get on the jewel surface. 

Tip:  Look for an 'oil dot' in the center of the jewel after cleaning and rub it away.  If there is a dot that will not go away, run a screwdriver across it and see if it is a rough spot caused by a broken staff, grit, or something.  If it will not go away, it may cause excess friction and foul up the running rate when the balance staff is running against the spot. 

The fix = another cap jewel.

Be very careful when handling the cap jewel with tweezers because the jewel can shoot out of the tweezers never to be seen again.  Practice it over and over (with A 21J jewels etc.) until you 'get the knack of it'.

6...Oil 50% to 60% (some say up to 70%) of the cap jewel surface, making sure you are oiling the flat side.  Try to get a more or less rounded spot of oil on the cap jewel.

7...Set the hole jewel down on top of the cap jewel.  If you get it off to one side and smear the oil, clean them both in acetone etc. and oil the cap jewel again.   Setting the hole jewel down over the cap jewel is not as easy as it sounds by a long shot.

 

You can find a lot of discussions about oiling balance jewels on the WUS Watchmaking section although it is basically 'Pros' vs 'Hobby Guys' and the 'Pros' sometimes add a lot of 'prose' to impress the troops.  There are also never ending discussions about the 'old way' as I described vs the 'new way' to oil cap jewels using Bergeon jewel treatments to hold the oil in one spot.  I am leaving that subject alone. 

 

"Are the balance staff end tips oiled with an oiler or does one oil the pivot holes immediately after having oiled the midsection of the mating end stones?"  

   

No need to oil the hole jewel, capillary action will do it.  If you also oil the hole jewel it may 'flood' the jewels and cause the oil to travel away from the jewels.

I have a tiny capillary oiler that will pass through some hole jewels but it is hit or miss on getting the oil to flow properly.  

 

Cleaning and oiling the capstone on shock system? - General Discussion - RWG

 

"Do any of you that service your own movements also clean both pivot holes of where the balance staff sits in with peg wood after rinse?"

 

I have also seen instructions that say to 'peg out' all hole jewels but I usually skip that part because I use an ultrasonic cleaning machine and have not had any trouble going this route.

 

I had three different master repair guys show me the ropes years ago and each one cleaned and oiled balance jewels on watches (with shock protection) basically the same way. 

Here are the basics:

1...Remove the cap/hole jewels.

2...If they are gummed up or stuck together, soak them in a solvent of some sort for a while until they come apart.  I use acetone because it is cheap.  'One Dip' will also work but it is expensive.  Btw, dry cleaning fluid (tetrachloroethylene) will also work, it is basically the same thing as 'One dip" used to be...if you can find it.

'Used to be' = the 'One Dip' formula has probably been changed because of the EPA.

3A...Put the jewels back in their shock settings and run them through the cleaning routine with the rest of the parts.

3B...Leave them out of the movement, put them in a small, fine wire mesh basket and clean them in a cleaning machine along with the other parts (cleaner and two rinses).

4...Let the jewels dry naturally or hot air dry them and inspect the cap jewel for chips or a glaze from oil etc.  Check the hole jewel for cracks, gummy deposits etc.

5...Rub the flat side of the cap jewel over a clean business card etc. to remove any film left by the cleaner/rinse.  Be careful not to dig into the card and create dust that may get on the jewel surface. 

Tip:  Look for an 'oil dot' in the center of the jewel after cleaning and rub it away.  If there is a dot that will not go away, run a screwdriver across it and see if it is a rough spot caused by a broken staff, grit, or something.  If it will not go away, it may cause excess friction and foul up the running rate when the balance staff is running against the spot. 

The fix = another cap jewel.

Be very careful when handling the cap jewel with tweezers because the jewel can shoot out of the tweezers never to be seen again.  Practice it over and over (with A 21J jewels etc.) until you 'get the knack of it'.

6...Oil 50% to 60% (some say up to 70%) of the cap jewel surface, making sure you are oiling the flat side.  Try to get a more or less rounded spot of oil on the cap jewel.

7...Set the hole jewel down on top of the cap jewel.  If you get it off to one side and smear the oil, clean them both in acetone etc. and oil the cap jewel again.   Setting the hole jewel down over the cap jewel is not as easy as it sounds by a long shot.

 

You can find a lot of discussions about oiling balance jewels on the WUS Watchmaking section although it is basically 'Pros' vs 'Hobby Guys' and the 'Pros' sometimes add a lot of 'prose' to impress the troops.  There are also never ending discussions about the 'old way' as I described vs the 'new way' to oil cap jewels using Bergeon jewel treatments to hold the oil in one spot.  I am leaving that subject alone. 

 

"Are the balance staff end tips oiled with an oiler or does one oil the pivot holes immediately after having oiled the midsection of the mating end stones?"  

   

No need to oil the hole jewel, capillary action will do it.  If you also oil the hole jewel it may 'flood' the jewels and cause the oil to travel away from the jewels.

I have a tiny capillary oiler that will pass through some hole jewels but it is hit or miss on getting the oil to flow properly.  

Fine looking '16710'!

 

I bought a few '16710' watches about 10 years ago with DG 3804 movements and they are 13.1mm thick.  They have sapphire crystals and the bezels rotate in both directions with clicks.  The movements are secured in the case with a brass spacer and case clamps/screws.  The lugs are 'blind' (no holes), the SEL bracelets have hollow mid links and are well made.

No idea what 'factory' made them as they came from 'a guy' in NYC back then.  He also had '16610' and '16570' models with similar features.

That is all I know about them because I never took one apart or modified one.

 

A few years before that, I got some similar GMT watches with new Swiss ETA movements/China 24H kits.  They were ordered from HK and arrived from a used car lot in GA  USA. 

Figure that one out.      

Hint for TRC members back then:  'Tommy' 

 

GMT (aka Guts, Money and Time)...Ha!

 

'Polar Bear' as mentioned above...

 

Tin Toys & Time...

CTime

I appreciate you taking time to post the Daytona vs genuine  comparison along with this one.

After seeing them compared, I am impressed by the clone movements.

Thank you!

Fine looking dial and watch!

The 6150 is one of my favorite Rolex watches but close as I could get is a 1002 and a 1003 with Yuki 'Explorer' dials.

Wearing the 1003 today.

 

Looks like Buddhabar has an 'explorer' too.   Woof! 

Diatribe

Another headache...EV automobile fires.

No one would ever say for sure if an EV started this fire, but when a few EVs did catch on fire, the show was over.

Except for the cartoon.

 

EV automobile manufacturers DO NOT like the term “battery fires.”  They are now called “THERMAL EVENTS” and  "thermal events" happen A WHOLE LOT MORE than we will ever know.  

Remember the ship (Felicity Ace) full of high end cars...Audi, Porsche, Bentley, Lamborghini, Mercedes etc. that caught on fire?  An EV battery started the fire and all the cars (along with the ship) are now in the bottom of Atlantic Ocean near the Azores.    
"Two weeks after catching fire, a mammoth ship that was transporting thousands of luxury cars sank on Tuesday morning about 253 miles off the Azores", according to the company that managed the vessel.
The ship, the Felicity Ace, went down at about 9 a.m. local time after tilting starboard, plunging about 4,000 cars —" including more than 1,000 Porsches and 200 Bentleys — into the sea."

(2-16-2022)  The Felicity Ace (656 feet-long, travelling from Emden, Germany en route to Davisville, Rhode Island) had been carrying nearly 4,000 vehicles primarily from the Volkswagen Group brands. A number of the vehicles were fully electric, including models from Volkswagen and Audi, making the fire more much more difficult to control.  One report stated there were 3828 cars on the ship.                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                    

*Fires involving lithium ion batteries are particularly difficult to extinguish.                                                 

*Loss for all the vehicles has been estimated at $400 million plus.                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

*Environmental groups had been deeply concerned that the ship would sink and about the pollution it would cause in the unique ecosystem of the Azores, the Portuguese archipelago in the North Atlantic, where the seabed is covered with coral reefs, coral forests and sponges.                                                                                                 

*The Environmental impact of the ship’s total immersion in the water is not yet known...and never will be, it is 9,800 feet (3000M) deep. 

   

 Among the Lamborghini cars on the ship were some Aventador models. The V12-powered Aventador is Lamborghini’s most expensive regular production model, priced at over $400,000. Fewer than 800 are built each year and this is the last year the model is being offered. Lamborghini of America CEO Andrea Baldi recently told the industry publication Automotive News that it could be difficult to replace the cars because each one is highly customized and, as it is, customers wait months for their cars. 

 

 

Make and Model	Number of Cars
Audi A5 Convertible	84
Audi A5 Coupe	43
Audi A5 Sportback	147
Audi E-Tron	121
Audi Q3	297
Audi Q3 Sportback	144
Bentley Bentayga	77
Bentley Continental GT	38
Bentley Continental GTC	50
Bentley Flying Spur	25
Lamborghini Aventador	15
Lamborghini Huracan	20
Lamborghini Urus	50
Porsche	23 made in Zuffenhausen, 19 in Leipzig, and 126 in Bratislava
Volkswagen Caddy	47
Volkswagen Golf	199
Volkswagen ID.4	159
Volkswagen T6	116

 

Burning cargo ship heading for RI could impact car industry - Bing video

 

                                          

Me too.    

 

I put a '5513' project together using a JKF case (paid for JKF, no way to be 100% sure) and it turned out pretty good.  Oem spec crystal/case tube, and the lug holes were enlarged, that's about it.  My only gripe is the lug holes are a bit close to the tops of the lugs.

Here it is, fourth post down on page 144:

Rolex Wristies thread - Page 144 - The Rolex Area - RWG

 

 

"...Chinese factories are filling the widening void by pumping out fakes that are nearly indistinguishable -- visually, tactilely & functionally -- from what Rolex is producing at a fraction of the cost."

 

I see this as one hundred percent true.

All they need to do to put RWC farther back in the rearview mirror is up the reliability a few notches and supply low cost repair parts.

Otoh, RWC will try every way they can to influence 'Chinese Officials' to crack down on the replica factories, maybe by giving them genuine  rolex watches.  Ha!

One BIG problem with this is (my guess), the 'Chinese  Officials' are crooked as a barrel of fish hooks and will take the genuine watches and  bribes from the replica factories for a win-win and do nothing. 

 

Business as usual.

 

As for me personally...

With the exception of a steel Daytona like Freddy has and very few others, I would not hit a bull in the azz for a modern rolex watch. 

Why not?

Because I am solidly stuck in the quagmire of 'four digit' rolex watches...genuines, Frankensteins, and replikines.

 

"If it don't wear Plastic, it ain't Fantastic."    

There was a super nice 16710 project watch posted in the Rolex Area by Tribal on April 2 and I have a couple I wanted to put up but could not find them. 

Anyway, I found these while looking:

 

NOS Kermits from around 2007 or so, still in plastic wrap.

Sapphire crystals with hollow mid link bracelets, brass movement spacers with case clamps etc.  Same cases, dials, bracelets as some of the Swiss ETA models back then but with Asian movements.  

 

Three more nos in Black and White:

Ex II has 3804, same as the missing 16710 watches, the 'mariners have Asian movements same as Kermits.

 

Here is a slightly used timehead like the missing 16710 watches, reflections and all:  

Bezel clicks CW and CCW.  Slightly wokky reflector (rehaut) but it can be machined about one mm at a 90 degree angle up from the dial to make it look better.  This one had a jubilee bracelet, the others have oyster bracelets.

REPLICA ROLEX 16610 SUBMARINER 'INFO AND INSTRUCTIONS'...FOR DUMMIES LIKE ME:

STANDARD THINGS TO LOOK FOR..

STAINLESS STEEL CONSTRUCTION.

A FINELY FINISHED CASE AND BRACELET.
FINELY FINISHED DIAL.
SAPPHIRE CRYSTAL.

SCREW DOWN CROWN.
SCREW DOWN CASE BACK.
'FULLY SIGNED' BRACELET AND CASE.
HOLLOW MID LINK BRACELET WITH DIVER EXTENSION AND SOLID END LINKS (SEL).     
NOTE:  MODELS THAT MIMIC EARLIER EDITIONS WILL HAVE STAMPED SHEET METAL BRACELET END PIECES (AKA HOODS) INSTEAD OF SEL, AND SHOULD HAVE HOLES ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE LUGS.  SEL MODELS USUALLY HAVE BLIND LUG HOLES BUT EARLY SEL WATCHES HAD HOLES ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE LUGS.

MOVEMENT CHOICES:   
CHEAPO ASIAN '21 JEWEL' MOVEMENTS...HIT OR MISS IN QUALITY BUT CHEAP TO REPLACE.
ASIAN 'ETACLONE' COPY OF ETA 2824 or 2836.  OK IF GOOD TO START WITH.  MAY HAVE A SHORT LIFESPAN.
ASIAN 'ROLYCLONE' 3135 MOVEMENT.  THREE OR FIVE VERSIONS, SOME OK, SOME NOT.  REPLACEMENTS COST $100 TO $200+.
GENUINE ETA 2824 OR 2836.  RELIABLE IF NEW AND FRESH.  SOME ARE 'PUT TOGETHERS' = JUNK.  
NEW ETA 2824/2836 MOVEMENTS NOW SELL FOR $200 TO $300.  
MOST ALL WILL BE HACK SETTING = MOVEMENT STOPS RUNNING WHEN CROWN IS PULLED OUT TO THE TIME SETTING POSITION.

 

CROWN POSITIONS: 
1...CROWN UNSCREWED.  WINDING POSITION.
2...CROWN PULLED OUT TO FIRST NOTCH.  DATE SETTING POSITION.
3...CROWN PULLED OUT TO SECOND NOTCH.  TIME SETTING POSITION.

INSTRUCTIONS:
WHEN THE WATCH HAS STOPPED...DETERMINE IF IT IS ON AM OR PM BY RUNNING THE HANDS PAST 12 AND WATCH FOR THE DATE TO FLIP OVER,  DO NOT TURN THE HANDS REAL FAST.     
TIP...WHEN THE WATCH STOPS, NOTE IF IT STOPPED ON AM OR PM SO YOU DO NOT NEED TO RUN THE HANDS AROUND TO DETERMINE AM OR PM.  
WHY?  
BECAUSE IT SAVES WEAR AND TEAR ON THE SETTING WORKS.

ONE 'FREE' FOOLPROOF PRECAUTION (FROM EXPERIENCE):
DO NOT CHANGE THE DATE BETWEEN 6PM AND 6AM.  
WHY?
BECAUSE IT MIGHT DAMAGE THE DATE WORKS.  

 

STARTING THE WATCH:
UNSCREW THE CROWN AND WIND THE CROWN 25 OR 30 TIMES TO GET THE WATCH RUNNING.  NO NEED TO 'BACK WIND' THE CROWN...WIND IT FORWARD ONLY.  
SET THE TIME AND DATE, SCREW THE CROWN DOWN, AND IT IS READY TO GO.  IF IT DOES NOT START, GENTLY TWIST THE WATCH BACK AND FORTH WITH THE DIAL UP OR DOWN.
BE CAREFUL WHEN SCREWING THE CROWN DOWN AND MAKE SURE THE THREADS LINE UP.  YOU CAN PUSH THE CROWN DOWN AND TURN IT BACKWARDS TO FEEL WHEN IT STARTS IF NEEDED.  
JUST SNUG THE CROWN DOWN...NOT VERY TIGHT.  IT AIN'T A LUG NUT!

HOW CAN SOMEONE TELL IT IS A REPLICA?
THE BEAT RATE (HOW MANY 'TICKS' IT MAKES PER HOUR)...GENUINES ARE 28,800 TICKS PER HOUR, ASIAN '21 JEWEL' MODELS USUALLY MAKE SLIGHTLY LESS TICKS PER HOUR. 
MOST PEOPLE ASSUME EVERY 'ROLEX' IS A REPLICA ANYWAY SO DON'T WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT IT.

WHAT CAN GO WRONG WITH THE WATCH?

'LUCKY 7' COMMON AILMENTS:

1...THE WATCH FOGS UP.

WHY?

WATER/MOISTURE INTRUSION.

THE FIX?

A LOOONG STORY.  MIGHT NEED RESEALING ETC.

2...ONE OR MORE OF THE MARKERS FALLS OFF THE DIAL.
WHY?

SHOCKS AND/OR DROPS.  MAYBE ONE OR MORE JUST FALLS OFF, THEY ARE CEMENTED ON THE DIAL LIKE GENUINE.

IT NEEDS A DOCTOR.
3...SCREWS CAN COME LOOSE IN BRACELET LINKS BECAUSE THE GLUE/LOCKTITE GAVE UP. 

FIX IT BY CLEANING THE LINK AND REAPPLYING THREAD LOCKER.  

NOTE:  TO REMOVE A LINK YOU USUALLY NEED TO HEAT THE BRACELET LINK SCREW TO GET IT OUT, AND THE SCREWDRIVER MUST FIT THE SCREW HEAD.
4...THE WATCH STOPS RUNNING BECAUSE OF BEING DROPPED OR SLAMMED AGAINST SOMETHING.  MAY OR MAY NOT BE DAMAGED,  SAME AS GENUINE.

IF IT RUNS OK, IT IS USUALLY OK, OTHERWISE SEE A WATCH DOC.
5...THE LUBRICANTS JUST DRY UP AND IT GRINDS TO A HALT...SAME AS GENUINE.

MAY NEED SERVICE.
6...SOMETHING IN THE MOVEMENT BREAKS...SAME AS GENUINE.

NEEDS SERVICE.

7...A HAND FALLS OFF OR RUBS AGAINST ANOTHER HAND.

SEE # 2.

 

DO NOT LEAVE THE WATCH IN DIRECT SUN IN HOT WEATHER...CAR DASH ETC.

THE WATCH WILL STOP IF YOU DO NOT WEAR IT ENOUGH, IT NEEDS ABOUT SIX OR EIGHT HOURS A DAY OF FAIRLY ACTIVE WEAR...NOT WATCHING TV AND EATING POPCORN  .  

WIND IT IF NEEDED.

MECHANICAL WATCHES ARE VERY FRAGILE COMPARED TO QUARTZ WATCHES, PLUS THEY NEED A LOT OF CARE.  I CALL THEM 'ONE DROPS'...ONE DROP ON A HARD SURFACE OR ONE DROP OF WATER GETS INSIDE AND THEY NEED TO SEE A WATCH DOCTOR, OR A WATCH UNDERTAKER.  

WHEN SOMEONE COMPLAINS ABOUT THEIR MECHANICAL WATCH NOT KEEPING TIME, I JUST TELL THEM TO BUY A QUARTZ WATCH OR MOVE CLOSER TO THE COURTHOUSE.

 

NOW YOU SEE WHY ALMOST NO ONE WEARS A MECHANICAL WATCH TODAY.  

 

WHY ALL CAPS?

I'M NOT SHOUTING!   

 CAPS ARE CHEAP AND FAST.  TYPOS ARE FREE.

AND
 COMMENTS ARE WELCOME.

 

4-17-2023

This is for anyone new to the game and I put it in the Rolex Area because the Resource Center is very quiet and it would hardly ever be seen.   

I picked the 16610 because it is the model that often comes to mind when someone mentions 'submariner'.

 

"...nothing beats that old school 40’s-60’s look which are timeless."

 

I have owned a few obscure brand vintage 14K chronographs, sometimes called 'onion skins' because the cases are so thin. 

Q...How thin are they?

A...So thin they have double case backs, one base metal and one gold because the gold back would cave in without the base metal back under it. 

Btw...most were two register snap backs.

 

So...You might look around for an 'onion skin' chronograph that looks like a vintage Patek chronograph and go from there.  Maybe.

The movement and dial will be the next problems.  Used to be that many dial refinishers would put any brand name on a dial as long as the original name was not legible. 

Not now though, they decided to get picky about it and want the original name on the dial and will only refinish it back to original.

"Now, this one has moved to a tie with the NTTD..."

 

Can't beat a no date submariner wearing nylons!

 

A creampuff in leather...NOS stainless Eternamatic from the 1970s:

 

From the looks of the case back and lizard strap, it has never been worn at all.  No crimp or marks on the strap, so no wristie. 

I've had it 30 years at least.  Have two more somewhere but they are snap backs, not WR.

 

Very low mileage 21 jewel lever set Railroad Approved Waltham Riverside from 1940 in nickel alloy case by Star Watch Case Co...

The watch on the right is also RR Approved...for little bitty railroads...

Fyi...the wood hoop in front of the wood frame dip-net is a primitive horse collar frame and the UMCO box is a small fishing tackle box.  The casting reel is a Langley Streamlite 310 KC.  The snake is rubber.  Ha!  

"The Langley Co. made aluminum aircraft parts during WWII and used that knowledge to make very fine light weight fishing reels from 1948 to 1962 when they were bought by Zebco."  (Fishing Talks com)

Devil Diver!

Newer model with Miyota movement, ISO certified so it can actually be used for diving...and a bargain in today's market when discounted on eBay etc.  Box type sapphire crystal, SEL, vintage vibe bracelet with stamped clasp and extension similar to the originals.

A modern watch with a trip back in time included at no extra charge.  A brand new 50 year old watch!

 

Disclaimer:

I am not affiliated with Bulova in any way, but they are one of my favorite brands. 

Nor do I portray a doctor on TV.   Ha!   

 

ISO 6425 for Dive Watches - ChronoDivers.com

"I feel your pain (but the suffering is worse because I lack such an extensive collection of new/NOS Rolex crowns)."

"Wow that's quite the crown collection.!!"

 

Yeah, it started years ago (take-offs piling up), I never imagined they would ever be worth anything.  The nos crowns were purchased back when I had a parts account with DRS in NYC and later with RWC Dallas.  I do not take in repairs now because of the parts situation and buy a 15xx powered watch now and then that needs parts, c/o etc. and get it back to good condition, finally ending up with a few pretty good 16xx DJ and 55xx AKs.

 

Today ratty rolex 16xx DJ and 55xx AK watches cost more in bad condition than first class examples did a few years ago.  Rotted out cases and bad dials being most of the problem today...along with finding period correct bracelets in usable condition.  I sent 6 or 8 bracelets to Michael Young in HK 12 or 15 years ago and they turned out fine but I am not going to take a chance with them making the round trip today. 

 

It seems like the vintage rolex hobby is expanding and contracting at the same time...

Expanding because of increased demand.

Contracting because of insane parts prices and fewer repair shops willing to work on older watches.

"As automatico said, most have been sold off for their melt value..."

 

A jewelry store friend had a rolex 1803 Prez movement (cal 1556 hack) in his desk drawer a few ears ago and I asked where the case and bracelet went (it was complete with date works and dial, but they had removed the diamond markers to get the gold settings and scratched the dial).

He said they scrapped the case and bracelet after paying $1200 for the running watch.  Twelve hundred $$ for a rolex Prez!

I asked how much they would have sold it to me for before they scrapped it.   He said double melt value complete with movement.

I bought the movement for half what they paid for the watch...$600.  

"I still have a 23-300 with dial/handset that has been sitting on my bench for years awaiting a Patek case ."

 

Suitable cases are few and far between, but the movement is 50% of the chase.

 

I did not look up the reference numbers the OP posted and did not know they were chronographs, so all my yakety yak above is null and void.  

I better stick to time only/time and date projects because a gold chrono project will take more $$ than I can afford. 

Besides that, the last chronograph I took apart...is still apart.  

 

Yakety Yak (2007 Remaster) - YouTube

 

"I’ve started thinking about a high-end Patek Philippe franken."

 

This is not meant to be a smart remark but you might have waited too long to get started on it for three reasons...all because of $$:

1...Genuine patphils and parts are extremely expensive now, basically ruling out Frankenstein projects using genuine parts.

2...Gold is nearing $2K USD per troy ounce so solid 14/18K gold watches for F-stein projects have jumped way up in price. 

3...Many classic case designs have been melted down.

 

Patphil watches were reasonably priced when I bought the last one in 1998...a 'golden ellipse' on the orignal woven bracelet, purchased locally for scrap gold price.  It had a cal 23-300 movement and was in first class condition.  I had it c/o and traded it away.

Q...Why trade it away?

A...They are fragile as a baby's breath.  Not for me.

Q...Why was the ellipse so cheap back then?

A...Because no one wanted it.  It was tacky, a 'country club' watch.  'Sporty watches' were the rage back then, same as now.

Calatravas back then were $4 to $5K and Nauts were $4 to $6K.  Complicated models were very high back then same as now.

Problems with them today:

1...Astronomical prices.

2...No parts.  I could get patphil parts back then from the Stern Agency NYC but not now.  No contacts today.  All I have left is a nos 18kyg crown.

3...Still fragile as a baby's breath.

 

If I wanted a Frankenstein patphil today, I would buy a 14K or 18K vintage Hamilton (rectangle, square, or round ) and have the dial refinished.

Btw, Hamiltons were 'the best of the best' in their prime and imho a LOT better than a vintage patphil.  Besides that, Hamilton parts are still easy to find and relatively cheap.

Many other watch brands had fine gold vintage cases too...Lucien Piccard, Gruen, Benrus, Elgin etc. and many have standard ETA or A. Schild movements.

 

Here is a price list from the same time when I had the ellipse: