automatico

I have a few like this and they have 16570T at the 12 o'clock end and F432118 at the 6 o'clock end. The 78628 bracelet has a clasp with 'registered'  above 'swiss made' at the left side and DE6 above 'steelinox' over '93250' on the right side of the clasp blade along with the fancy script in the center. The movements in mine are DG 3804B. They have hollow bracelet mid links and the cases, bracelets, and dials are finely finished. These watches were a real surprise for the price I paid. They go for $125 to $250 new if you can find one. Same watch with 2836 etaclone is about $100 more. Swiss Eta 2836 models with Asian GMT modification on new (not refurb junk) movements are now up around $500 but are few and far between.

It says Make Offer. Cover him up with $2 and $3 offers. I will send one for $3.

The watch was represented as "Dial has been retouched professionally." "The case is custom made." 

The dial may or may not be a 'retouched' genuine dial...hard to tell. Give it the benefit of a doubt.

If the case was totally unsigned it would be eBay-Ok because the patent on the case design has expired. The catch is this case back is trademarked. That is an eBay-No-No.

Btw...how many 1520 you see with a Dxxxxx serial number? Maybe it is a 1570/75 (D for date) main plate with a complete 1520 flat spring whirleygig assembly and auto wind top plate. Very few 1520/25 have serial numbers. I say 'very few' although I have not seen one.

"The cases look very similar to me, but the finishing is different (like someone mentioned). I don't think either Minh or Tonny makes these cases, it must be some supplier in Vietnam."

High grade cases...this is one mystery that the insiders really keep a lid on. Maybe someone will spill a few beans sooner or later.

Something I have always wondered about the high grade replica cases is what do the case 'detailers' start out with? I call them 'detailers' because I seriously doubt they have the means or inclination to stamp out case and case back blanks, thread them, and shape them to a starting point. I will always suspect they start out with standard cases of some sort, maybe even cartel cases in many instances, then modify them to a higher quality fit and finish. After seeing what JMB, debane, and a few others can do, there is little doubt (in my twisted mind) that this is probably how it is done. I also believe MBW/MBK cases are just common cases finished closer to oem specs than average cases. For anyone talented enough to do the case work and interested in trying to turn a $50 cartel case into a $1500 'show dog' case, the case numbers and letters are the main stumbling block, especially the stamped letters/numbers inside the case back.

I agree with pan153. You will not get much hassle from a guy wearing a Seiko 5, Orange Monster, Invicta etc (although a Grand Seiko owner might not be as easy going). I have respect for the average watch guy same as anyone else. Imho it's the arrogant watch snobs that need sanding down. 

Maybe after they get older and have a titanium knee or hip replacement, they will come around to the fact that replicas are not that bad after all.  

The Twisted World of Watches... 

(A)   The majority of the genuine watch forum bed wetters are:  1...Jealous.   2...Disappointed.   3...Disillusioned.   Jealous because replica owners get the Wow! accolades (and the Damsel) same as any Gomer wearing the Real Deal and Disappointed because in reality their $10k 'investment' was a fool's errand, especially when it breaks and needs 'official' $ervice. They are Disillusioned because they believe 'High Achievers and Heroes all wear genuine watches.'  All the others are sinners and destined to burn at the stake in Geneva.

(B)   1: They do not know much about watches in general and can not tell a higher grade replica from a genuine watch.   2: They have very little or no sense of humor.   3: They tend to identify with the brand and wear 'Macho Brands' and/or certain types of watches as a badge of 'manliness'.  Replicas take this all away from them because the guy wearing the replica has the same status, therefore replicas are something to be hated and/or feared along with the person wearing it.  They have no problem with pirated DVDs etc though.

(C)   Most of the genuine watch forum members are replicas of sane, reasonable people.

I have owned a couple genuine tutone WK 1120 and the most I paid for one was $250 and the other one was about $150 so they do not sell for much. The problem is the plating wears off the bezel and bracelet so they look ratty after a few years. This is probably the main reason why they do not sell for much. I doubt a replica would have very good plating at all and it would probably wear off in a hurry.

I have seen nos bezels for sale on eBay from time to time and they sell for almost as much as a complete used watch. I have a stainless TAG Heuer that hangs on a hook over my workbench all the time so I looked to see what model it is...it's a WK 1112-0 and it looks a lot like the all steel 1120 and they go for $300 or $400 and I saw one similar to it on the TZ Sales Corner a couple days ago for $350. I would not try to repair a replica needing a bezel with genuine parts. A good used quartz TAG Heuer is about as cheap as a new replica.

I guess I am one of very few RWG members who admit to liking simple quartz 'time and date' TAG Heuer watches.

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=7270488&rid=0#msg_7270488   (it sold already but another one will show up)

TAG Heuer 2000 series info:

http://www.calibre11.com/tag-heuer-2000-series/

The ID of genuine 160xx and 162xx DJ bezels is 30.4mm (maybe plus or minus a hair), the difference being that 162xx sapphire bezels are a little bit taller. If the case neck is same as oem...29.5mm, then any oem spec crystal and gasket combo should work.   Catch: with some replica cases there will be a small shoulder at the bottom of the case neck and if the crystal gasket is pushed down over the shoulder it will cause the bezel to not mount flat on top of the case.

Most of the replica DJ cases have oem spec case necks but the crystal gaskets and bezels may or may not be oem spec, especially on older cases. Aftmkt bezels ordered from ST, WSO etc should be oem spec (ST is for sure). My JMB cases are oem spec on the case neck as are my "Monarch Polfy SA, Gelena Shitinerand" cases from a few years back.   

Two watches is one too many.

Time and money, you will never have enough.

It takes a year to make a Rolex but a new Rolex customer is born every minute.

If you live long enough, all your watches will someday be worth what you paid for them.

If you want to retire from watch trading with a million dollars worth of watches...start out with about ten million dollars worth.

Feel free to add to the list.   

"it's nice that the whole watch is in house"

'In house' is mostly true today but back when they made the old 1030/1530/3035, early 3135 etc the movements were made by Aegler, a separate outfit but they only made movements for RWC. They 'out housed' the escapements (Nivarox), main springs (General Ressorts), some cases (CRS), case finishing (Joli Poli and Virex), crowns (Boninchi), dials (Beyeler, Lemrich, Singer etc), bracelets (Gay Frères), hands (Fiedler), crystals (Stettler Saphir) etc, etc.  Sorta like Invicta does now...Ha!  

CRS stands for Charles René Spillmann...this company was exstablished in La Chaux de Fonds (CH) at the begining of last century and made cases and buckles for Rolex and other brands. CRS still exists under another name.

H Stern dials...the family behind Cadrans Stern did buy PP in the 1930s. However they decided about a decade later to dispose of their dial business.
So the company that made the COMEX & Rail Dials was no longer related to PP.
Stern remained in the dial business until the 1980s, when they sold the company to another dial maker.
Stern dials are easily distinguished by the 5 pointed star on the back of the dial (Stern is German for 'star').

"This is great info Automatico. Thank you very much! I will buy up some crystals, most are cheap enough."

The 1002 'explorer' I put together is a no date watch so no date magnifier problems. You can get in a mess with date mag offsets when swapping  crystals but since your watch uses a standard Eta movement maybe it will not be a problem. Where the trouble begins is when you have a watch with an Eta standard date offset and replacement crystals are made to the rolex offset standard.

I supplied the crystal part number from a rolex parts catalog using the tudor 74000 case number...the 74000 crystal is sapphire. There is probably a tudor watch with the same case dimensions that used an acrylic crystal but I do not know what the reference number might be. Maybe someone familiar with tudors will know as I am not versed on tudors. An acrylic crystal made for a 34mm rolex will have the wrong date offset.

mmm:

That's a good fix! I never would have thought of it.

Another (but more expensive) fix is to have a jeweler laser weld a genuine solid gold case tube in the case. I have an 18k replica DJ case that is thin where the case tube threads are and plan to have a 6.0mm gold tube welded in it from the inside. I am lucky to know two local jewelers who can do this type of work but if you do not know someone, a stranger will usually try to rob you.   "Since that's a rolex case, I'll do it for only $1200."

"And remember, putting a Rolex 1030 movement in a watch can be tricky - Rolex hasn't made that movement in over 50 years, so parts are tough to come by - maybe impossible."

The 'goat is right and the 1030 is not known to be very rugged especially when compared to an Eta 28xx. For example, try to find a reasonably priced new rotor bearing for a 1030 (p/n 7004), the bearing being a common problem with them. The 1530 base movements are a better bet but still expen$ive, not overly rugged, and they did not come in the 6538. If it was me, I would spend the $$ on a good case and dial with a slow beat Eta. 

With replica watches, "Looks are everything". It does not really matter what is inside, especially if it has a solid case back.     Frankensteins are a leeetle bit different...

I did a project a while back using a genuine rolex 1002 case, cal 1560, Yuki AK Explorer dial, and JMB 34mm tudor '74033' smooth bezel, with unknown brand of aftmkt crystal. The bezel came from a 34mm JMB 'tudor 74033' case and was the same size as a genuine spec 1002 bezel (1002 is an Oyster perpetual no date watch). I tried probably 5 or 6 different aftmkt crystals before I found one that was a good fit. It usually turns out this way and maybe you could gather up a few crystals and try them starting with an aftmkt rolex 25-12. A genuine tudor 74000 uses a 25-143 crystal but they are hard to find in the aftmkt. You will need to precisely measure your case neck OD and bezel ID and see if it is the same as oem in order to have an oem spec aftmkt crystal fit properly. Being a Yuki case, it should be the same as oem but you never know. The JMB cases are same as oem and look exactly like the Yuki cases except the Yuki cases have better engraving.

If you have to use crystal cement...something is wrong and it may not seal against water. Modern type 25-112 crystals have sharp top edges but older styles are rounded if you can find one.

The case necks of the JMB 34mm tudor '74033' case and genuine rolex 1002 and 5500 are all 28.15mm. The bezel ID on the JMB 34mm '74033' tudor case is 29.15, same as rolex 1002 and 5500.

'JMB' case = this is where I got them a few years ago.

I have been on internet watch forums for 20+ years (not many watch forums around at first) and have seen some of the current rolex forum 'Gurus' starting out green as grass from their Day 1. A few have smarted up, many have not, and most have disappeared. There were not many 'watch snobs' back then because other posters would not allow it but things are different now and watch snobs are everywhere. After they brag about their watch for a month or two, they start bragging about their Lexus, BMW etc, then the vacation spots they have visited...anything to get another pat on the head. Imho these Peckerheads are made out of low grade recycled plastic...the type used in the super thin plastic water bottles that collapse after the water is gone.

I remember a guy on TZ that came on about 15 years ago who was smokin' hot for rolex. He was in love. I shot a few barbs at him and he always came back. Turned out he was a good guy, wised up and now sticks barbs in the current crop of rolex worshippers on various forums.

As for replica forums, the first one I posted on was RWCC, next TRC, then RWG.   I remember Freddy333's first post on TRC...    

I have problems with some of the snobs on RWF (Rolex forum).

I get a laugh out of those characters. They are perfect rolex snobs. I have it listed as 'rolex idiot forum' on my favorites.

The one thing that really bothers me about higher grade replicas is when they are sold as being the genuine article. This is why I like eta or 21 jewel powered replicas because anyone can look inside them and tell what they are.

I have a cartel  '1655' (laser engraved 1655 between the lugs with Exp II dial) that is actually a 5513/1680 case with the crown guards made for a 6.0mm crown instead of a 7.0mm crown. It originally came with a swisseta 2836 with Asian made non adjustable GMT conversion. How to tell it is a 5513/1680 case? A 19/127 crystal fits the case and a 116 will not. The skirt of the crystal had been sanded down to lower it so it would not be too high. It had a 5513/1680 size bezel with GMT bezel insert so an oem spec GMT insert would not fit. Looks like they used what was handy sometimes.

Also have a swisseta powered '1675' (1675 between the lugs) from a few years back with non adjustable 24H hand (same mvt as the Ex II above)...the one with 'oyster perpetual date' on the dial but I can not find it to see what the case looks like. Seems like they did not make this model for long so you do not see many now. I have a g-wine 1675 so when I find the swisseta 1675 I will compare them. The swiss movements used in these watches were good and the beat rate can be slowed down by swapping out 2836 escapement parts with 2846 parts and the non adjustable Asian 24H conversions were basically trouble free. You can also buy an Asian etaclone GMT on eBay to get the parts. Btw, all the watches I bought during this time had new swissetas in them, no gumbos, refurbs, mixer/matchers, clones etc.   Gumbos = old and dirty, barely run.

Lotta gumbos out there.  

Edit:   Forgot to say about DG '21 jewel movements'...some versions of the 21 jewel DG movements have instant change dates (the date snaps over almost all at once, not a little at a time). The date flipper is the round part that can be seen through the dw cover plate at 9 o'clock on the dial side. You can tell what type it is by looking at the date flipper assembly...the quick change models have a flat top with a small hole with a pin in it and the slow change models have a top with a slotted hole with a pin in the slot. The parts will interchange but you need to change it out as a set to be safe...date flipper, date wheel, and dw index lever although I changed the date flipper assembly and index lever out on one yesterday leaving the dw that came with the movement and it seems to work all right. Be sure there is spring tension in both directions on the quick change date lever (the T shaped lever that mounts over a date cover plate screw hole)...it has a finger that rides against a small wheel that is turned by the stem/crown to quick set the date). This lever works against two springs and they are prone to jump out of place before the dw cover plate is installed. Do not insert the U shaped dw index lever spring until the cover plate is mounted...then stuff it through the slot in the plate with the index lever between two dw teeth to give more room making sure the closed end is against the screw head at the end of the slot when installed. Cover the immediate area over the U spring hole with plastic wrap and work through it in case the U spring jumps out.

Imho the MBK 6538 will not cut the mustard.

"The ones I like the most are the ones where people put them together for $500-600 or so and have a nice watch." 

Me too. More $$ does not equal closer to genuine in the repwatch game.

Something else...very few people have seen an actual 6538 so nearly everyone who sees one will consider it to be a replica no matter how good it is. Rolexperts who know about them will quickly spot an MBK 6538. Another imho...it is a better bet to go with a 5512/13 with a good case and dial for a no date vintage watch and MBK 5512/13 cases are hard to beat. Maybe the new cartel cases will rival them but I have not seen one up close. Two faults with MBK cases are the mismatched dial window sizes for 1680 cases and the whistle-[censored] laser burn numbers and letters.

A good 6538 is hard to pull off.   There is a BIG difference between a lawn mowing/car washing 6538 and a cuff shooter 6538.  

Here is an earlier thread about what may be the same watch (I am not sure) and it has a good pic of a white dial model (post number 14).

https://rwg.cc/topic/182274-best-daytona-rep-on-the-market-today

The white dial watch that I froze the dials on is a bit different...1mm thicker case, thinner crown, has a DG movement, and still runs fine (in warm weather anyway). I have both types of this model...bracelet and leather strap but they appear to be identical from the front side to the one in these pics except for the hoods on strap models. 

"What amazes me is the overall fit and finish, it really screams gen..."

Me too, I was impressed with the overall case fit/finish, dials etc...everything except the plastic movement spacer. I would have to cut a groove around the inside of the case for clamps and make a brass spacer to get rid of the plastic spacer but it is really OK the way it is. Since I would not use the chronograph much at all, this type of movement suits me fine and should give less trouble than the 'Old Reliable' A7750 s@6. I froze the center timing sweep second hand and hands on the sub dials at 3 and 9. It originally came with the center sweep timing hand and second hand at 6 running all the time and the dials at 3 and 9 marked same as genuine but were day and date so I took it apart and froze them. There is a post somewhere telling how I did it but I do not have a link to it.

Put up a 'WTB'.

It seems some 5512/13/1680 in the last batch for sale on RWG came with 1665 bezels. I have a 5512 that had a 1665 type bezel and I will swap it out for a ST kit later. I am going to keep the 1665 bezel for now though.

" "Since I want to build a 5513 based on a cartel case with a yuki dial I want to ask the experts which of both dials is more accurate (font, indices, spacing etc.)."

I posted this before but I'll put it up again...the last pair of 1680 dials I got from Yuki a year or so back had lettering that looked like it was printed with stripes rather than solid lines. Do not know about their 5513 dials.

Sort of like this:   ////////////////////////////////////////////      You had to look at the letters under 7x or 10x to see it but it was there. It made the letters look like they had a grain instead of being a solid line. I do not know if this was just done on a few dials or the beginning of a trend as I have not ordered anything since then. Anyone with a newer Yuki dial take a close look and see if it is printed like that.

"Question for you guys - after reading the sales thread with the "lost but now discovered" vault of mbw offerings, which would serve as a better base for a 5513 - one of those mbw or the new cartel? Are the stock mbw crystal, dial and hands ok or do they need to be replaced like these Cartel ones do? The two would be neck and neck price wise if you could use all of the stock components."

Be sure to read up on MBK cases if you plan to put a '5512/13' together using a genuine movement. Using an Eta 2846 is much easier when making an MBK 5512/13.

Cartel cases are a LOT less $$.

"Minh Q's case comes in at around $1250 and Phong's around $1800(!) iirc."

"I believe MQ charges $750 for their Milgauss dial and I paid $300 for the one from Tonny"

Imho $750 is a lot of wampum for a fake dial and $1800 is a hellofalot for a fake case (I used the word 'fake' because in reality that is what they are at any price). I could maybe swallow the $$ for a lower buck case and $300 for a high class repdial if the project was worthy of it because legit dial refinishers are charging $200 and over for refinish jobs and most do not look as good as today's better 100% replica dials. You have little choice on high grade replica 6541 cases though.

That being said, in every 'serious' hobby ('serious' = $$) a 'Lunatic Fringe' develops sooner or later. The LF in vintage cars can be seen nightly on TV where middle aged guys with fat wallets bid on cars that will probably end up in another auction to be sold at a loss or be sold to another 'collector' with more $$ than brains. This routine repeats itself until the last widow ends up selling the car at a huge loss just to get it out of the garage. Genuine vintage watch collectors are the same way and the LF have set the prices...but LF watch loonies do not allow replica parts where the car guys do and this makes a BIG difference.

So...when I see $750 replica dials it makes me think a Lunatic Fringe is slowly developing in the repwatch ranks. I could easily have fallen into this trap as Yuki, Phong etc cases, dials and a few assorted genuine parts can soon add up to more than a nice genuine 5513/1680 sold for 8 or 10 years ago so I put the brakes on and decided the high grade vintage repwatch route was not for me. I remember when a brand new 5513 was around $400 and there is no way a beat up example is worth $7k today. I still have a few genuine 15xx movements but have decided it would be better to put them in genuine cases of some sort rather than F-stein projects (while remembering the widow reference). I can picture it now...a yard sale with replicas, F-steins, and genuines all piled together and all $25 each. Still have a few F-steins with genuine movements but will leave them as is for now. All other F-stein projects have been put behind the wall...Phong case/dial 1655, Yuki 5512/5513 etc simply because they are no longer worth the $$ and hassle to me. Etas in Yuki cases with Yuki dials are a possibility though.

I believe meadowsweet is going down a better path because of the choice of an Eta movement but the case and dial will still be a $$ burner although much less so than with the Phong case and dial. Not much choice.

"As you can see, I've already got a decent amount invested into this build, and as nice as it might be to put a cal. 1030 into a build like this, it just doesn't seem all that practical to me because: a) the Farraday cage covers the movement so you don't see it, b ) sourcing parts and servicing a 1030 movement is becoming increasingly difficult and cost prohibitive, and c) I plan on wearing this watch. A lot. And the ETA 2782 I'm using is far more rough & tumble-ready than the 1030."

The 1030 is past its prime and not known to be very rugged so the Eta is a much better choice imho. By going with the lower buck case/dial combo and Eta movement this project is out of the Lunatic Fringe and will make a very good reliable everyday watch. As for my F-steins with genuine 15xx movements...I have to remind myself every time I wear one that these movements are not nearly as rugged as a run of the mill Eta and parts cost too much. I remember reading where some rolex exec said 'a rolex can take anything your arm can take' or something similar. That is pure BS and I have a box of broken rolex movement parts to prove it. I have a box of broken Eta parts too but the Eta box parts will cost maybe $200 to replace where the rolex parts box would probably cost $3k at today's insane eBay prices.

All in all I believe this 6541 project will turn out to be very good and not break the bank. Bookmark it for reference.  

"The Athaya 702 clutch spring sucks. It will fail. I bought about 5 of them and they all crapped out. They look nice though."

Same thing happened with two TC crowns I used on projects. Threads are fine, high quality fit and finish but the spring got weak in no time. They will not extend after unscrewing from the tube and you have to pull out on the crown to keep it in gear to set the time. I have a few more but have used only two so far. All are new, not used. They might all be from the same 'factory'. The upside is it makes it easier to start the crown on the case tube threads.

Here is a real bargain with a hellofa guarantee:

eBay item   170607265424 

• NO ITEM CAN BE RETURNED
• ALL SALES ARE FINAL

"The sa3135 is not a reliable movement and very hard to get parts for if something happens to the movement where the 2836 is easily repairable."

"Rolex = closed Caseback = get the most reliable movement. Beat rate is same, no one will ever know."

+1 

I vote for swiss Eta 2836. Asian etaclone 2836 is Ok if it runs all right but I would look for a low mileage swiss 2836 for when the etaclone bites the dust...if the watch is a keeper.

"A man with one watch knows what time it is. An RWG member with 40 watches is never quite sure."

A man with no watch is always late or early.  A man with a mechanical watch is late half the time, early the other half.  A man with a quartz watch might be on time.  Women do not have to be on time.  

There is a BIG difference in '21 jewel' movements. There are all the Miyota clones and then there is the Seagull ST6D. The MIY clones are easy to spot with all the autowind guts buried down in the movement or the Sea Gull ST16 MIY clone with the 'magic lever' (you can see the magic lever 'wishbone' sticking out from under the auto works plate). Almost all of the MIY clones have tapered stems where they fit into the movement and they can be crammed in with any crown position because as long as the movement is together, the winding guts will stay in place...usually. Safest to leave it in winding position though. Catch 22...Sometimes the dial might be so close to the top plate that it will not allow the detent button to move the set lever spring far enough to turn the stem loose with the movement in the case. You are on your own when this happens. As Joey said...it's hammer time.

The ST6D (D = date) is a different can of worms. It should be called the ST666. Many times the set lever will slip by and get out of whack no matter what crown position it is in. When this happens you have to remove the autowind assembly on top of the movement and it's a b-i-t-c-h to work with first few times around because it has a little bitty cog that will fly away like the infamous click spring if there is any tension in the mainspring barrel at all. Do not ask me how I know. Then you have to remove the main spring cogs and plate, then dig down into the setting guts. Fun, Fun, Fun. The good thing is you do not see nearly as many ST6 as MIY clones. That's just about the only good thing other than the fact they are rugged and reliable when they do not have dirt and fuzz in them. The ST6 looks like a small movement with an oversize main plate and an autowind assembly bolted on the top because that's what it is...a manual wind lady size mvt with a big main plate and an autowind assembly stuck on top. Stay 6 feet away if possible unless U R a watch/witch mechanic.