automatico

Up until the parachrom hairspring came on the scene, rolex used Nivarox hairspring material made by FAR/Nivarox (now owned by swatch) and not much different from parachrom in composition.

Parachrom material is probably not a whole lot better (if any) than Nivarox but RWC needed something to boast about, especially since they started making their own hairsprings, so parachrom is their new Rock Star.

I am immune to BS and because rolex is about 70% hype and 30% substance (imho), everyone now wants the parachrom hairspring, better or not.

One of the best timekeepers rolex made was the 3035 and they came out long before parachrom hairsprings...with a version of the tried and true Clinergic 21 escapement made by FAR/Nivarox.

As for a mechanical watch keeping good time, you might find it anywhere. For example, I have been wearing an old 1970s Wittnauer 'front loader' automatic that I c/o a while back and in about 10 days it is still within about 40 seconds (slow) of being 'on time' compared to when I put it on. This is a watch that sold for around $125.00 35 or 40 years ago with a 17 jewel unadjusted movement.  

I did not put a new mainspring or anything in it or adjust the timing rate, just c/o and put it on.

I did not use 'seven different herbs and spices' either...just Moebius 9020, D5, 9415, and KT22.   

In answer to S1234...

I agree. I would do the same thing if I was selling high priced snobwatches because mainstream Gomers who buy them do not know enough (or care) to ask about the service/parts cost after the warranty has expired. In reality, it is against FTC rules to refuse to sell watch parts in the USA to supply houses for general distribution but it all goes ignored and RWC beat a class action suit in court a couple years ago with their policy of allowing 'selected independent repair shops to have an official parts account'. They left out the part about making it so hard to qualify that very, very few could get an account and also failed to mention they have closed out most of the accounts already established.

Omega will probably go the same route.

Very few brands sell parts today...try to buy oem parts for a Fossil or Breitling and see how far you get.

One exception is TAG crowns, case tubes, and crystals have become available from many supply houses in the past few years.

I have always wondered how a Goofball with a 60 IQ can buy brake parts for any motorcycle or automobile by just walking up to the parts counter with enough $$...then go home and improperly install the parts and later run over a kid at a cross walk because he did not install the brake parts properly.

While the same idiot can not buy a genuine crown for his genuine rolex watch because "Improper installation might damage the integrity of the fine swiss rolex timepiece."

...making him late to pick up his hoe girlfriend after she gets done with her stroll.  

.

Sad to say but new genuine 25 jewel Eta 7750 from USA supply houses are now around $400 and will probably reach $500 thanks to Swatch jacking prices up and the anticipation of drastically reduced supplies of movements and parts.

Now and then you can find nos 17 jewel Val/Eta 7750 for $200 to $300 but they may be stale from storage and need c/o.

One way to find an 'affordable' Eta 7750 is to buy a rough 'no name' watch with one in it. The catch is it may need service and service may cost more than the watch.

The basic truth is that a genuine Eta 7750 is no longer affordable for budget project watches.

My opinion of the Asian 7750 is that they are one step above junk because of hit or miss QC and no parts. Labor cost to work on an A7750 is the same as a swiss Eta 7750 or more because of ratty fit and finish.

Imho, what the world needs is a quartz chronograph movement with smooth sweeping sub seconds and center seconds like the Bulova Precisionist that will interchange with an Eta 7750.

...along with one to replace the Eta 2824/36/92.

...and one to replace the rolex 3035/3135.

The replica movement is easy to spot at a glance because of the small jewels on the reversers and intermediate wheel.

In my opinion these movements are pretty good but they will never be much of a success because parts are not available. Very few genuine rolex parts will fit and genuine parts are obscenely expensive anyway.

"Most scary for me are those parts only available from the factories, like crystals, or crowns or hands..."

Right, and the rumor is that after December 31 2015 the swatch group (omega etc) ls cutting off most of the parts to supply houses just like rolex did.

January 2016...

SMP Sucker:  "I need a new crown for my three year old SMP."  

Factory authorized rip off shop:  "We have them sir, only $815.00...including the mandatory full overhaul of course."  

Imho the words 'quality' and 'replica' do not belong in the same sentence.  

With that out of the way...there are usually 'quality' differences between different examples of the same model of replica watch, even from the same vendor.

Why?

Because 'quality' in replica watches is hit or miss. No way around it.

Exception = carefully hand assembled replica watches put together by someone who knows what they are doing...they are usually much better in quality but cost much more.

Examples = TC, BK etc.

So, what to buy?

A few years ago when fresh genuine Etas were available, replicas with these movements were fairly reliable except for the normal replica ailments...ratty case tube/crown threads, markers falling off dials, crystals fogging up etc. Now the two main choices are 'Asian etaclones' of dubious quality or Asian 'Miyota clones' of dubious quality with the same normal ailments just mentioned (imho on the dubious movement quality).

Today's 'Guaranteed Swiss Etas' in replicas are usually old, dirty, or worn out movements removed from various brands.

New Eta 2824/36 that used to retail for $59 are now $225 and a 2892 A2 that was $120 is around $350.

If I was stepping off into the 'Replicaland Swamp' today, I would probably go with a watch with a sapphire crystal, screw down case back, metal bracelet, and Asian etaclone 2824/36/92 or 6498. No chronographs.

It's true that everyone has a replica submariner or SMP but it does make parts easier to find.

...and sooner or later you will need parts.  

I have a couple '1655' from about 10 or 12 years back that came with swiss eta 2836 along with one '1675' with the same movement from 5 or 6 years back with non adjustable 24 hour hand and standard 2836 hour wheel/cp (H4?)...the 24 hour hand is very close to the dial and the 12 hour hand is very close to the 24 hour hand.

They all have the standard 24 hour hand modification with a double stack calendar wheel driving the 24 hour wheel fitted under the 12 hour wheel.

All the watches I have seen using this movement modification have 24 hour hands close to the dial. I have a sapphire GMT from the same era as the '1655' and I will try to remember to check and see how much room it has between the dial and hands.

I do not know about the latest offerings.

Otoh...

I looked at a modern sapphire 'noob' GMT 16710, case number F520117 with swiss eta 2836 and incorrect hs with adjustable 24 hour hand...it has adequate room between the 24hour hand and dial as well as the 24 hour and 12 hour hand so with this modification the hour wheel/cp are high enough. Do not know if parts are H4 or H5 though.

I know what you mean, but there is hope...

I always liked today's vintage rolex models, even back when they were new. The problem today (as I see it) is the ever escalating prices that have turned me away from genuine watches and down into the quagmire of Frankensteins and others of that ilk.

There is no cure.  

Except for one thing...  

I also like vintage watches of other brands from the 1950s through the 1970s and have managed to hold on to quite a few over the years. I gathered up a few dive models from a manual wind '666' Bulova (paid $20 for it) to others such as a Hamilton 'two crown' compressor, a matching pair of Wittnauer manual wind dive watches (one slow set and one quick set), a half dozen assorted Zodiac Sea Wolf, a 1970s Aquadive etc, etc.

What saved me from blowing all my $$ on rolex projects were all the other brands that I like just as well and already have. They cost very little (many were $0), parts are not hard to find, cheap when found, and they all use common movements that can be picked up for $5 to $25. Plus...no one I come into contact with has ever seen most of them so I avoid the "Is it real?" question.

Today it was a 1970s Wittnauer Geneve automatic D/D single qs with matte black dial, steel case, and 10k gold fluted bezel. it has white date wheels with red days, black numbers, goldtone trit h/m hands, and a red tip ss hand.

Yesterday it was a 40mm ss/18k quartz Maurice Lacroix (!) and have been working on an Ebel ss/18k quartz 1911 that needs a new movement. It was doa and cheap from eBay but a new mvt is $200 or

$300 (Cartier/Ebel 87) so and I am using an Eta with similar specs, being the cheapskate that I am. (I do not know what got me into quartz projects but they have been trouble free when finished)

Watch nut rule #21:

There is no such thing as botch work on a quartz watch...as long as it does not show.   

In addition to what HH and Bc said (and I agree with), I have something to say about genuine rolex movements...

First off, I have owned a quite a few rolex watches in the past 40 years.

I have owned 1220 base manual winds, 1530 base, 3035 base, and 3135 base automatic movements.

Do not care much at all for BB autos and 1030 base autos, I've had a few...the BB are junque (opinion) and the 1030 are 'in the past' as far as parts are concerned.

I like the 1530 base movements best of all because I have some parts for them and like vintage case styles much better than the modern designs.

That being said, would I put a "Frankenstein' watch together today with a 'high grade' replica case/dial and genuine movement if I did not already have a few spare rolex movements?

NO!

Why not?

Because genuine rolex movements are too expensive, parts are waaay too expensive, and they are too fragile compared to a swiss Eta etc. 'Fragile' = broken rotor axles, jewels etc.

Anyone who did not grow up wearing mechanical watches might have trouble with a watch with a genuine rolex movement in it if they expect it to be anywhere close to as rugged as a modern quartz watch...or a mechanical Eta, Miyota, or Seiko powered modern watch. No matter what anyone says, rolex automatic movements are not very rugged imho.

A fresh c/o swiss Eta will give better service at a fraction of the price imho.

One main reason for this lunatic hobby is to save $$. Using genuine rolex movements seems to be out of this realm. Same for cases...a $350 MBK or $600 Yuki case I can grudgingly live with but not a $1200 case of some sort that I can not tell from the MBK or Yuki case.

I'm just trying to save anyone who has not been down this road some trouble and $$.  

There are no standard gasket sizes in replica cases. You need a gasket that fits into the groove without stretching or compressing it to get it in the groove and be small enough in diameter to seal without holding the case back away from the case when screwed down.

It is not hard to find the size needed...

1...Measure the id of the gasket groove in the case or case back...these gaskets are sized by the inside diameter and cross section diameter.

2...Start with a  new round section gasket, piece of a gasket, or gasket made to fit as explained below and insert enough gasket into the groove to see how it fits. Use gaskets of known diameter, .7mm, .8mm. .9mm etc.

3...For a rough measurement, the gasket should stand above the groove about one fourth (or a little less) of the diameter of the gasket depending on how wide the groove is compared to the cross section diameter of the gasket. The wider the groove is compared to the cross section of the gasket, the more room there is for the gasket to compress in the groove. This is why you often see round section gaskets that become flat section gaskets after a few years in a case.

4...If you have a gasket that seems to be the right size in cross section diameter but is too long or short to fit into the groove, you will need to cut the gasket in two if too short or cut enough out to allow it to fit fully into the groove if it is too big in diameter for a trial fit. 

5...After you have found a gasket (or a piece of gasket) that you believe to be the correct size, lightly lubricate it with silicone etc, install it into the groove, and screw the case back down slowly while looking at the space between the case and case back closely to make sure the case back does not bottom out before compressing the gasket a little bit.

6...After you have determined what size gasket you need...order at least three of them if you plan to keep the watch.

7...To simplify all the BS above, it's like I said at the beginning...what you want is a gasket that compresses enough to seal and does not hold the case back away from the case.

...and does not leak.  

Might go with a 21600 bph swiss eta movement to mimic the rlx mvt beat rate. Also might need a longer hour wheel/cp so the h/m hands will be a bit farther from the dial than most date only eta movements. Probably need to ask around the forum about the h-wheel and cp and see what others have done. I have never used a 2824 in one of these projects.

I have a random serial number Yuki 5513 case that I got in May and I will say it is a first class case. I am not revved up by $1000+ cases because after you wear one a while they all look the same anyway. A few details in numbers and letters are not important to me as I am not trying to fool anyone...except maybe myself.  

Another reason why the Yuki case is a good choice is that the next best 'affordable high grade' 5513 case imho is MBK and they are 1680 spec inside. They are made for 26mm dials and this is good for 5512/13 projects but they are also made for an Eta 2836 spec day/date movement so a genuine rolex 1520/30 mounts too close to the front of the case if you ever decide to go with a genuine movement. 

All my MBK cases (2) 1680 and (1) 5513, have an O ring under the crystal retainer bezel like later model genuine watches but I did not remove the bezel on the Yuki 5513 to see what it had but a couple forum members said theirs did not have the O ring or a groove cut in the case top.

Before you run the case back on and off very much it might be a good idea to apply a tiny bit of lithium grease to the case back threads to keep the case back from seizing on the case. You never know when one might decide to clam up. I do not worry much with cartel and cheapo stuff but high $$ cases need a little TLC. I had a genuine 16000 case seize up and the threads were ruined when I finally got it apart. It was not cross threaded...it just seized up like it was welded.

Rolex 1530 base date movements usually move the date one day backwards or hang the date half way in the window when you back the hands up. You have to go 24 hours ahead to flip it one day. After a few dozen (hundred?) hand trips around the dial the canon pinion becomes loose on the center wheel and the watch runs but the H and M hands do not move. Then you have to remove the movement, hands, dial, cp and tighten the crimp in the cp. If the cp has been mounted on the center wheel dry (no lube at all) they will sometimes seize and you can not set the time without breaking something or unscrewing the crown from the stem.

There is no easy way to qs a slow set 1575 etc. Imho the best thing to do is let it go or park the watch until the date catches up the next month. This is why you need two slow set rolex watches but only one no date rolex watch.

Wall calendars are a lot cheaper than paying to have a loose cp fixed.   

Swiss Eta 2836 will not flip the date backwards. Backing the hands through the date change will hot harm the movement but should be avoided.

It is easier but when you 'shave' the dial you can cut into the minute markers. Sometimes the dial paint and/or markers will start peeling away from the dial.

It also depends on how much dial material you need to remove.

I seriously doubt rolex makes their spring bars.

The ST 'swiss' spring bars are basically identical to genuine. They also have 'HK' spring bars that are not identical to oem. 

I mark genuine sb with a Sharpy so I can tell them from ST if they are on the table together.

J. Borel may use the same sb supplier as ST.

I had the same trouble with an MBK 1680 case as they are made for 26.0mm dials like on 5512/13. I enlarged the dial window about .4mm to 26.0mm (iirc on the exact amount) and made the cut straight (90 degree angle to the dial) and it worked Ok but you can see the straight cut on the lower edge of the reflector ring (rehaut). By only cutting .4mm rather than .5mm it leaves less of a straight area just above the dial. If you try to replicate the angle all the way to the dial rather than making a straight cut, you will have to machine the entire reflector ring (rehaut) at an angle from the dial to the edge of the reflector ring (rehaut) next to the crystal...a LOT more work.

Another concern on MBK 5512/13 and 1680 cases is that there is a shallow 'dial seat' cut below the dial window that allows only for a 26mm dial...I had to enlarge it to 26.5mm to accept the 26.5mm oem spec '1680' dial when I enlarged the dial window.

I do not know if the 'cartel' cases are made exactly like this or not but it is a heads up on what to expect with an MBK case.  

I would look for a swiss eta 2824 at a good price and have it c/o. A 'new' Asian etaclone might need c/o anyway. 

It's better to rescue a fox than a skunk.  

I have worn a few Universal Geneve Polerouters with micro rotors and they were not very efficient winders because the rotor is so small. Have also worn micro rotor Bulova Ambassadors and Hamilton Thin-O-Matics and the story was the same. Maybe with a 45mm case this one has a rotor big enough to do the job but building up 3 days reserve with a micro rotor seems a bit optimistic to me.

Maybe you wind it enough for 3 days to start with and wearing the watch daily keeps it topped off.  

I do not like to throw a damper on things but I've become immune to swiss BS over the years. This seems to be a case where what has gone before did not work so they are trying it again on a new audience.

Time will tell... 

The A296 is one of the worst movements rolex ever made...auto assembly trouble out the wazoo.

This watch is way below average in appearance and they were not really considered to be 'explorers' anyway, they just have the name on the dial. These watches never sold for much $$ until vintage rolex went crazy and 'collectors' started buying everything in sight.

The time head is probably not worth much but if the bracelet has sheet metal links it might be worth a few bucks.

I had a few of the older (2000 or so) 36mm Air Kings and they looked Ok. No one ever noticed they were too big.

It would take a rolex nut to spot the difference anyway.

The lady asked:

"Is it real?"  

He said:

"Uh yeah, real big."  

Then she said:

"I'm talking about the watch you damn fool."

Go to the VRF search and type in 'laser welded cases' or something similar and you can see what was said about it.

"what does it mean to refurbish model and serial engravings?"

Numbers only are probably not too bad if they have been worn away but it would have to be professionally done with the same numbers and in the same font to be legit.

As for welding a case where it was damaged and or corroded...to me it means someone has turned a junk case into a sellable case. Without full disclosure it is a scam, not much better than an aftmkt case sold as genuine. 

The second link shows a case with considerable corrosion around the case neck. I would not buy it...not at $800 for a swiss cheese case. Corrosion is corrosion no matter what the brand name is.

Look at how slick the rest of it is, no telling what has been done to it.

If you took a watch with this case to rwc they would Demand! you buy a new case, not work on it, or not guarantee it to be water resistant past the front door.

All imho as usual.  

I got a white letter '5512' dial from Yukiwatch a few months back and was going to use it on a project last week and noticed many of the minute markers look like they were printed with the 'dot matrix' method...they are not solid lines but a series of dots with black from the dial plate showing between the dots. The lettering is a little bit better with no gaps but not up to what their dials used to be. The outer edges of the letters are a bit ragged and the paint/ink does not stand up from the dial like it should.

Anyone else notice this?

I looked at a few other Yuki dials and they were all Ok except for one fairly new '5513' dial that is better than the 5512 dial but not as good as their earlier dials. It seems the dials with yellow tinted markers and letters from a few years ago are the best of all as far as marker and letter quality are concerned.

Frankensteins are not cheap but they do not have to be overly expensive either.

Here is what my last '5513' project cost:

MBK 5513 case...$300

DW case back $80 (better lettering, figure half of the $159 price for a complete case when I bought it).

ST bezel kit...$70 (had the MBK bezel set but went with ST).

GS PA 462 66 crystal...$12.

TC case tube and crown...$25

ST hands...$15

Yuki white 5513 dial...$104

1520 movement...$650 iirc, got it in 2008, c/o twice plus one mainspring and one rotor axle/top jewel $45. Total about $700.

Center wheel, canon pinion, and calendar spacer...$100. Had to make the movement the same thickness as a date movement because the MBK 5513 is really a 1680 spec case.

Gaskets/screws, springbars etc about $20.

Folded oyster from 'Mary'...$60.

Replica hoods and flip lock clasp...$25.

Total = about $1500. Could save $150 by using MBK case back and bezel assembly bringing it down to about $1350.

Since the case back and bezel kit were not necessary, the $1350 figure should be the finished price...not too bad.

Back before gold prices went crazy there were a lot of excellent gold replacement cases from Italy floating around and I had an 18k solid gold 'Daytona' with oyster bracelet in 1999 with a V750 in it. I traded it even for a nib 16233 DJ. The 'Daytona' was heavy and very well made. Also had a few 18k Italy DJ cases that were made for genuine movements/dials and still have one 18k DJ case that is slightly out of spec...the dial window is too big and there are no movement mounting stands inside the case. It was made for an Eta 2836 with oversize diamond dial. The case is very well finished and weighs 29 grams.

As for Italy made steel replacement rolex cases, I have not seen one yet (that I know of).

The cases on eBay look pretty good and no doubt would fool 99% of the people who buy a watch made with one of these cases (including me). I would be willing to bet that after a few years of wear, these cases will pass for genuine with little problem. They might go through rolex service too since it is probably mostly green horns working there.

All something needs to become genuine is for a few rolexperts to declare it to be genuine.

Remember the rolex trader's motto:

If it will pass for genuine...it becomes genuine.