automatico

"...are the  unsigned rivets the same spec as genuine...?"

Some are and some are not. You would need to know the width where it goes between the lugs, the width of the center links in case you have to change hoods, and the width of the bracelet where it couples to the clasp (most full size rolex clasps are 16mm). I have an unsigned bracelet from the 1970s (a guess on mfg date) that looks a lot like a C&I rivet bracelet except it is tapered down from 19mm where it meets the 20mm hoods to 14mm at the clasp. The clasp cap has an emblem stamped in it much like the rolex coronet but not exact. It was probably an 'unofficial' aftmkt accessory bracelet for rolex watches.

I got a no stretch C&I 20mm rivet oyster with a watch in the early 1970s and it was marked $49 list price iirc. They were in little plastic boxes on hooks in a counter display that you could turn around to look at the bracelets.

About 25 years later I was in the same store and bought two nos solid gold bracelets from a similar display that they kept behind the counter. They sold the bracelets to me at the marked list price of $299 for 14k and $399 for 18k which was below their actual worth a few years later.

Gold today is $42 per gram so a 35 gram 14k bracelet is worth about $850USD in gold...18k would be around $1100USD.

Quite a few of the 19mm and 20mm aftmkt bracelets I have seen had 14mm wide clasps. Genuine 14mm clasps came on lots of 6694 etc but prices for a clasp are pretty high now.

I bought a left over 882xxxx 6694 in 1989 for $925 (list price) at the store mentioned above...I bet the bracelet alone would bring a large percentage of that today.

I tried to wear genuine stretch rivet oysters years ago and they were a real hassle. The heavier the time head is, the worse it is...you move your arm quickly and the watch ends up half way up your arm or upside down . It's like wearing a Speidel Twist-O-Flex with a Z clasp.

Non stretch are not as bad but they are still hair pullers.

This is no help of course but I have seen some newer watches with stretch rivet oyster type bracelets on them. A friend had a batch of new cheapo Asian made Walthams (distributed by MZ Berger NYC) a few years ago at his store with stretch oyster bracelets. I kept one but it is 18mm wide at the clasp and will not work with a rolex clasp. The center links are gold plated but it would be easy to buff it off with a satin finishing wheel.

timesofplenty on eBay comes up with unsigned rivet oyster bracelets now and then.

"...clone the Stilty ring."

I made a few adapter rings in a lathe using a thick brass flat washer and they turned out real good. I made them so the dial could be cemented to the adapter...this is the main advantage of the Stilty adapter ring. It takes quite a bit of time for me to make one though.

Stilty's rings were CNC machined.

"I was close!"

Cram a 285 on an AK, put a 7.0mm tube/crown on it, machine the gasket groove to accept a 1.0mm gasket and have a little bitty SD.

aka Sea Dipper  

Besides the aggravation to r/r the bracelets, one other problem I have seen on later models with 'blind' lug holes is when using a strap the spring bars get pulled out of the lugs, especially with rubber straps.

When the spring bar pops out...the watch hits the pavement.

I have a noob greenie on a rubber strap and it has this problem. I drilled the holes out a little bit deeper so the spring bars would go in all the way to the shoulder but no luck, it still pops off now and then when using a rubber strap. I am using ST 'swiss' oem type spring bars made for later submariners and they have good spring tension.

The strap is a full 20mm wide and a fairly tight fit but it levers the spring bar out anyway. It might be better to wear the watch loose but I do not like them flopping around like a tennis shoe in a washing machine.

I polished my ST/Clark bezels on a 1725 rpm 1/4 hp bench buffer with a 6 inch buff and it was still a hassle. I used two grades of buffing compound and finished up with Simichrome polish. They turned out Ok but still lack the sheen of a highly polished part. I put one in a lathe and spun it while holding 1000 sandpaper against it but it still leaves the grooves rough and is not really worth the trouble.

I tried two or three inserts before I found one that fit just right and it was a 'vintage' 1680/5513 type from Jules Borel that I bought 5 or 6 years ago. No telling what they have now.

The general rule for replica parts...

'None Of It Fits Anything'

SD is 285 = 28.5mm

AK is 286 = 28.6mm

Ref number = outside diameter.

This is probably no help at all but on my MBK cases the laser etched numbers between the lugs are not deep at all and same goes for the case back. They are not convincing at all. What I did was use an MBK '5513' case with a DW '5513' case back with stamped numbers...DW case backs are not top of the line but are lettered (stamped, not etched) much better than MBW. Later on I plan to have a friend engrave new numbers between the lugs with an old Hermes pantograph.

MBK cases are very well made and all three of mine (2/1680, 1/5513) have gasket grooves in the case top under the crystal retaining bezel like later models and accept genspec case tubes etc. The catch is they are all identical, (5513 and 1680) and all of the dial windows are machined to use 26.0mm dials. Because of this, a later MBK 1680 case will work for a 5513 project using a genspec 26.0mm dial but not a genspec 26.5mm 1680 dial.

Genspec 5512/13 dials are 26.0mm and 1680 dials are 26.5mm.

A later MBK case is fine for a 5512/13 project as long as you plan to use an Eta movement. Use a genuine 1520/30/60/70 and the movement mounts too far to the front of the case.

MBK cases work a little better on 1680 projects using a genuine movement but the dial window is too small and covers too much of the minute markers plus the dial seat is too small as it is machined for a 26.0mm dial. Without being able to do the necessary case work or knowing a modder...a Yuki case is probably a better alternative in a high quality project and the numbers are much better.

I do not know the exact differences (if any) between earlier MBW/MBK cases and today's MBK cases. My 1680 cases are about 2 years old and came from the shop at MBK Mall. The 5513 case came from a member around the same time. I used ST bezel kits but MBK bezel assemblies are Ok as is.

If you go with a cartel case you need a case that...

Will accept a genspec crystal and case tube.

Has room to drill the lug holes out to 1.3mm...some have the holes drilled too close to an edge.

Has the back gasket in the case back if possible. The gasket groove cut in the case is Ok as long as the case back appears to be thick around the outside edge like genuine. Many cases with the gasket groove in the case have the outer edge of the case back machined too thin...it's a quick tell.

Has CG with enough metal to allow them to be shaped to match genuine. 

Has beveled lug tops if possible.

Has a fairly thin mid case, many are too thick.

Just now measured three genuine 295C sapphire crystals removed from:

OQ 17013...30.4mm od    29.5mm where gasket mounts    2.04mm thick

DJ 16233...30.4mm od    29.5mm where gasket mounts    2.10mm thick

DJ 16234...30.4mm od    29.5mm where gasket mounts    2.02mm thick

The gaskets are all the same...2.35mm high. 

I have found genuine 295C in my watches from the late 1980s/1990s not to be exactly 2.0mm thick most of the time. Later models may be closer to 2.0mm.

The crystal gaskets are all used, they might be off a little.

I have had a lot of experience with Eta 28xx movements and must say they are reliable and fairly rugged as long as they are in good condition and have been c/o in the last few years. They are no match for a good quartz movement in reliability and ruggedness though.

Eta 28xx troubles are dry or worn reversers, winding rotor bearings worn out or the weight knocked off leaving the race on the movement, worn out winding parts from hand winding, and setting problems now and then. Other than that they are pretty tough. This does not include the 2892 family as I have not had much experience with them.

Also had quite a bit of experience with rolex 1210, 1530, 3035, 3135 and will say the rolex reputation for being rugged was earned back when everyone wore mechanical watches and the reality back then was rolex was no more rugged than Bulova, Benrus etc, they just usually had better cases back then...imho of course. I must say 'imho' because so many rolex owners believe the hype and have no experience with break downs because they treat their watches like 'heirlooms'.

A steel screw back case with a high quality case tube and crown, thick MG or sapphire crystal, and quartz movement is hard to beat for everyday wear. For extreme wear a digital G Shock etc would probably be a better choice...no wheels inside, no hands to knock off etc.

The Extreme Rule is CBP Rules...Ha!

CBP = Cheap Black Plastic

One catch with CBP cases is that spring bars can pull out of the case and rotating bezels get knocked off. They are not usually worth repairing.

Acrylic crystals are Ok but get scratched easily and the crown does not have to be the screw down type as long as it has a good O ring etc that will stay dry down to an actual 50 or 75 feet. I have a Marathon CCG (Eta 2824) that is WR down to 200m and it has a double O ring non screw down crown. These watches are actually good to 200m...not just the 200m FTC BS rating like printed on many watches.

I have owned a few Luminox watches and all were fine. A few owners I know had the tritium vials get knocked out of the hands...not hard to fix though. Most had Harley Ronda quartz movements with extra tall canon pinions to allow for the thick hands.

The one you picked looks like a very good choice to me.

GT

Just read the thread and it seems they have come up with a cheapo etaclone-clone that may be worse than a run of the mill 'dirt and hair' 21 jewel movement.

A sad state of affairs. 

Next they will be using roach bug whiskers for hairsprings. 

The 'A2813 high beat' might be the DG 4813...it is a fast beat (28800bph) Miyota clone similar to DG/NN etc Miyota 8215 clones.

From my experience with them they are Ok as long as you are fairly active as the reserve is not too hot. All mine keep good time though.

They are not '25 jewel' movements same as swiss Eta but probably somewhere between 20 and 25, I never took the time to add them up. They look just like a regular NN '21 jewel' movement except they have a smaller balance wheel. All my 4813 are gold tone where my regular DG 21j movements are silver colored.

My experience = owning 3 or 4 watches with he DG 4813 and all seem to have low reserve unless you hand wind them now and then or are fairly active and wear the watch 8 hours per day or more. As with all movements in replicas and cheapo watches there is no way to know what you are getting because of poor handling and a not very clean assembly environment. I also have doubts about proper oiling from the factory.

The A2824/36 etaclones are entirely different as you know and are said to be better movements than the 'A21j'.

I used the mid case as an example of a major genuine part, the other being a movement. I do not believe a Yuki, MBK, J&W etc case with a genuine movement is any less a Frankenstein than one with a genuine mid case because the genuine movement qualifies it as a Frankenstein...a genuine case just adds to the value.

The answer is...

there is no answer.

I believe there needs to be a few rules as to what qualifies as a Frankenstein watch...imho it can not be just a mail order watch with a genuine spring bar, crystal. or bezel insert.

Anyone besides me think a Frankenstein relax watch should have a genuine movement or a genuine case at least? For example, a replica with only a genuine dial is not a Frankenstein...it's just a replica with a genuine dial. It needs a genuine case or movement to go with the dial to qualify.

As for genuine cases...Frankensteins would need a genuine mid case at least, aftmkt case backs and bezels would be Ok as long as they are true to the original. After all, my guess is that hundreds if not thousands of otherwise 'genuine' watches are floating around with aftmkt case backs and bezels.

Btw...something else that gets my goat are watches that have been 'artificially aged' and come out looking awful. It seems many agers try to make their watch look like the worst beater they have ever seen, especially dive watches.

Rant off. 

I learned about 'Frankensteins' the hard way...by putting 10 or 12 of them together. All of mine were vintage...5512/13, 1680, 1016, and 1655. All had genuine movements and one 1680 and one 1016 also had genuine dials.

Here is some of what I learned on the genuine movement vintage 'Frankenstein' watches mentioned above:

1...Today's prices for genuine rolex parts are absurd.

2...Frankensteins cost way too much for what you end up with.

3...They are extremely hard to sell except on replica forums.

4...They are Ok if you plan to wear the watch for a long time and part it out when you are done with it.

5...Selling one is not a good idea because sooner or later it will probably be sold as genuine. 

6...A fresh Eta 28xx movement is just as about good as a rolex movement, rugged, reliable, and a hellofalot cheaper.

7...Do not cut dial feet off of a valuable genuine dial...that is what Yuki dials are for.

I took all mine apart except for one '1680' with a DW case, 1575 movement, and genuine dial. I left it together so the dial and movement would be protected and put a note with it telling exactly what it is so if I drop under the radar before I part it out. I am putting the genuine movements in genuine cases when I can find a case at a reasonable price...OPD, DJ, AK...not submariner, explorer etc cases.

They look good but the plating kills them for me.

Plating = wear through on sharp edges, clasp cap etc in short order. Replica watch plating is usually thinner than on genuine watches.

Also has FACS

FACS = fat ass crown syndrome

It looks thick as a brick to me...but my name ain't Jethro T.    

Anybody seen my aqualung?    

I have used balled up rope caulking stuck to a case back to start stubborn threads but it leaves a residue. I never tried to remove a case back with it though.

Rope caulk comes in rolls at hardware/paint stores and is about 5mm in diameter. It's sticky as dammit. 

The end of the stem is broken off...maybe in the movement, maybe not. It's not much of a problem if you have a new stem and someone to dig the broken part out and fit a new one...about an hour or so. Might not be a good idea to tear into it yourself unless you know your way around an Eta 28xx movement.

Btw, it has a 17 jewel autowind assembly on it and a 2836 is a 25 jewel movement.

Someone on the forum might help you out. I would not send it back for this.

I can not take any work in because I have so many projects of my own to finish.

...maybe if I stayed off forums I could get caught up. 

I have had this problem with non TC watches and the spring bars supplied were usually regular type 1.5mm center tube diameter by 16mm long. I substituted 1.5mm by 16mm 'buckle bars' and they worked.

The 'buckle bars' have shorter plugs (end tips) and a larger collar to keep them from pushing through the clasp.

Some models might have 1.8mm center tubes but most of the extensions I have seen lately had 1.5mm tubes on the spring bars.

I have a lot of parts and complete (Asian movement) watches, some running, some not, stored in boxes but I have just about stopped working on Asian movement stuff so they are beginning to get in the way. They have value only because I paid $$ for them and the time is fast approaching when they must be gathered up and sold.

Parts tend to accumulate because so many Asian powered watches are unreliable (in my experience) and my swiss Eta parts stash is only a small fraction of the Asian junkyard.

It seems the only exceptions are Sea Gull movements...ST6D, ST16, ST19.

I have owned a lot of genuine watches...if I told how many, no one would believe it so I won't. Here is a hint...since 1990 I bought 340 watches with the brand name starting with the letter 'B'...not counting quartz watches or watches for parts.

Exceptions: a new quartz Breitling Navatimer 3100 from Alan Marcus Co June 1990 and a new quartz Breitling Callisto from Tourneau in January 1992.

.

Anyway...me buying a new genuine 'keeper' watch will never happen again because there is no longer any such thing for me (keeper). They all end up traded away or sold and the ones I can not get rid of wind up in a box in my safe. 

I have not stepped inside a rolex, omega, breitling etc AD in probably 15 years.

I do know what I like however...vintage steel or solid gold with acrylic crystal, manual wind or automatic, on a croc or lizard strap. Watches like this have always been my favorites.

Note: I have owned a lot of new stuff in the past 10 years 'by default' because a friend had a retail/wholesale watch store and some of it ended up with me when he closed out brands or models. Got a lot of junk too...last Thursday he offered me a used Citizen Promaster 3745 needing a battery. He asked how much I would give him for it and I said 'ninety one cents'. He gave it to me and paid for my breakfast.

That's how to buy quartz watches. 

I always liked Sector dive style watches and bought a few 15 or 18 years ago and wore them for a few years with no trouble at all. 

Time flew by and I bought another one a couple years back, nos chronograph with steel case and plastic strap that screws to the case similar to an omega cosmic. After looking it over, it seems they have dropped the ball...the box probably cost more to make than the watch.  

If I run across it I will post the model number.

I work on 1530 base rolex watches and parts in the USA started drying up in the mid to late 1990s when rolex USA closed all parts accounts with supply houses and shifted parts to Dallas TX. Rwc opened 'spare parts accounts' with many independent shops in the late 1990s then came back in a few years and closed a majority of the accounts out. Now most independent repair shops have lost their 'spare parts accounts' with rolex and are simply out of luck.

Swatch (omega, tissot, longines etc) is following suit and it will not be long until omega etc parts take a big price increase because of no longer being available.

I know that rolex is rapidly discontinuing parts for 1530 base movements but with the overall rolex parts supply down to a slow drip, getting movement parts for cal 3035 and 3135 base watches is also a hassle so modern watches are affected too.

I have a few 'Frankenstein' 5512/13/1680 with rolex 1530 base movements but have already taken two apart and the others will soon follow because movements and parts are now too expensive (for me) to wear a watch with a rolex movement in it.

Same goes for genuine rolex watches, I will not wear one for more than a couple days to see how it runs...then it goes into a box to be sold or parted out.

Let someone else worry with them. 

If you are fairly active, 8 hours wearing the watch should make it run for 24-36 hours after taken off. Next time you wear it, slowly wind it about 25 or 30 turns before putting it on and wear it all day. After wearing it, park it and see how long it runs. If it stops in 8 to 12 hours you have trouble but if it runs 24 to 36 hours it is probably all right.

If it turns out to be Ok, you can get by with just putting it on each day without winding it as long as it runs all night.

Many automatic movements, both Asian and swiss are not in top condition when installed in replicas and your experience is not out of the ordinary.

It is a Sea Gull ST6D, one of the better chinacheapo movements.

DG, NN, Miyota 8215 dials and hands will not fit this movement.