automatico

Maybe "historic breakthrough = runs for two weeks.  

They will have to perform some "historic changes" to make the 'sex at six' A7750 reliable imho.  

"I wish you could make gen spec rolex cases..."

The easiest way to do this might be to find a low cost cartel case that is close to genuine and modify it to genuine specs. 

Vintage cases...5512/13 and 1680 would not be too hard if you can find something close to begin with. You need the correct dial window opening, case neck od, case back type (gasket in the case back), stem centered in the case tube for the movement etc.

Not being a modern watch guy, I would go with an all genuine 1016 in excellent condition.

I have used ST and Clark bezel kits and they have worked Ok for me but it depends on the last few .00mm of the case neck od and crystal retainer bezel id. All my ST/Clark bezel kits have been very close to the same size. As far as I know, ST and Clark kits are exactly the same and both are matte finished and require a bit of polishing.

I used ST/Clark kits on my last two projects (5512 and 5513) only because they were already polished and ready to use. My 1680 MBK case came with a good bezel kit and I used it as is with an unknown brand aftmkt crystal.

MBK 5513 case neck od = 28.18mm

MBK 1680 case neck = 28.2mm

MBK bezel kit...

crystal retainer bezel = 35.45mm od,  30.15 id

rotating bezel = 35.35mm id where it snaps over the crystal retainer bezel and 39.6mm od

ST/Clark kit...

crystal retainer bezel = 35.48mm od,  30.2mm id

rotating bezel = 35.45mm where it snaps over the crystal retainer bezel and 39.5mm od

notes:

1  The crystal retainer bezel will usually expand a little bit when pressed down over the crystal depending on how tight it is. The ST/Clark kit I measured had been r/r a time or two and was a good fit on most case/crystal combos I tried and the rotating bezel was a good fit even when the measurements indicate it might be too loose on the inner bezel.

2  I may have to try 3 or 4 different crystals before getting the best fit and always use good quality aftmkt crystals on these projects. I do not waste genuine crystals on them.

3  Always measure the od of a crystal when it is pushed down over the case neck for comparison and it will usually be bigger down close to the case. If the top of the crystal is bigger than the id of the crystal retainer bezel it will not start evenly and may crack the crystal. This is why crystals are usually made smaller at the top.

MenEx...

Your case looks a lot like my unmodified 5513 MBK case (same case as MBK 1680) except for the crown guards and they are very close. After drilling the lug holes out to 1.3mm the holes are not quite as close to the tops of the lugs as yours but that makes no difference as there is still plenty of metal around the holes.

It looks very good!

I did not take time to alter the MBK crown guards and will wait until later or let it go. They stick out a little bit too far but I can live with it. What was important to me was the fit and finish and it is real good. I used a 1570 with date works removed and the calendar spacer still in place with Yuki 5512 dial, ST bezel assembly, GS PA 462 66 crystal, TC tube/crown, and DW case back (better letters).

Since the PT case takes a genspec crystal, all that is needed is a genspec bezel assembly and a good insert to make a first class case.

For the difference in price they are a real bargain.

Bc1121 is right, this is about what a complete MBK 1680 will go for today. I was thinking it was $650 for an empty case.

I paid about $400 each for two in April 2012 (new complete swisseta 1680s) and have watched them jump up in price since then.

Mine have the gasket under the inner bezel like a later model genuine 1680 and afaik current Yuki cases do not but I have not looked. Do not know about cartel cases. I doubt the extra gasket is really necessary...on dry land anyway.

I will say this...I was surprised at how well finished they are. Put a 21600 beat swisseta in one and you will have a very good watch that will go 20+ years if you take care of it and have it serviced now and then. The case and case back lettering is not too hot though.

If there is any such thing as 'classic replicas'...MBK 1680, 5512/13 and SD qualify.

The only thing missing is a little bitty Coyote (from Roadrunner cartoons) down at the bottom of the dial with cheeks puffed out holding his breath.   

650!!

Yuki cases are about the same price and they are oem spec.

...or pretty close.

Agree with ag...the Josh case ain't bad.

The catch to the MBK 1680 case is the dial window is sized for a 5512/13 dial but the inside of the case will only accept a rolex 1575 date movement. They were originally made for Eta 2836.

A no date 1520/60/70 mounts too close to the front of the case.

MBK cases are hard to beat for Eta projects, the trouble is they do not show up for sale very often.

Dealer cost for a brand new tritium 1016 dial in the early 1990s was around $50. I have a receipt for one I bought at dealer cost but it is packed away with the dial. Also bought one at full retail but can not remember how much it was, about $125 iirc.

So...if genuine dials could be made and shipped half way around the world, marked up by RUSA, then mailed to a dealer for around fifty bucks...why can someone not crank out an accurate replica dial today for $100?

Good question I guess.

ww...

I picked up a few rough vintage dials at NAWCC shows, most are for older DJ, OPD etc.

I have not been to a show in quite a while so there might be a few newer dials around now at reasonable prices. One good thing is that goofballs who throw $$ away on rolexjunk do not work on watches so dials that are less than perfect tend to be reasonably priced.

To cc33...

Thanks!

I've wondered about this for a long time.  

Never swapped markers around on genuine dials but have replaced markers on genuine dials that have fallen off or lost. Easy to do, same as replicas.

Never used genuine dials on these projects, never had any.

Iirc the dials I used were bigger od than oem too. If I run across any dials like I used I will post the od.

1...The stem should not bottom out inside the movement when the crown is screwed all the way down.

2...Make sure the watch stops winding before the crown starts screwing down on the threads.

3...There should be enough room between the crown threads and case tube threads in winding position to allow the crown to wind the watch without catching on the threads.

4...The crown threads need to be far enough from the case tube threads in setting position to allow the crown to move far enough to go from setting position to winding position.

Sometimes crown clutch problems can mimic stem length trouble.

1...Not hand winding at all.

2...Not enough spring tension in the telescoping crown clutch to allow it to overcome set bridge tension when going from set position to winding position. This could be a movement problem...dry, rusty etc.

3...The clutch assembly coming loose inside the crown.

4...Crown clutch slipping now and then etc.

Make sure the stem is cemented securely in the crown.

If no whoopy dials available I would go with Yuki because they are reliable as far as communication, delivery etc. The 1016 dial on the Yuki website has 'puff daddy' markers but the one you get may be better. After you wear it a while and the crystal gets some scuffs, the defects may not be evident.

Swapping markers from large to small is fairly easy and works Ok as long as the larger markers did not leave any scratches on the dial that show outside the smaller markers. I never changed a 14060 replica dial to a ST or TC case but have swapped a few no date dials over to the 'noob' cases from 8 or 10 years back that had press in sapphire crystals and spring wire bezels, not oem type crystals/bezels. They turned out pretty good.

On VRF yesterday there was an interesting post about early 5512 dials...("Who can explain the reason for this 5512 dial?"). What I find most interesting is that in the top picture the dial has the 'swiss T 25' blurb very close to the edge of the dial and in the third picture down showing a dial mounted in a case, the 'swiss T 25' blurb is in full view. This means (to me) that the dial and dial window in this particular case are very close to the same size...26.0mm. Look closely at about 10 o'clock in the third picture down and you can see a space between the dial and case.

Also note there are no scuff marks around the edge of the dial. This means the dial has never been mounted (unlikely) or the dial really does not touch the dial seat.

So what? You say.

Well...

If this is true (dial and window the same size), it means the dial is held down on the movement only by the dial screws like the DW '5513' project that I have worried with for two years. I could see a tiny space between the dial and dial window all the way around and I worried about dial screws getting loose and allowing the dial to flop up and down between the top plate and hour hand so I finally made a little bitty spacer to take up the space and allow the dial to seat against the spacer.

The dial in the DW '5513' case did not rest on the dial seat at all but rested just under the dial seat and held in place only by the dial screws.

The movement is solidly located in the case by a ledge machined inside the case and a shoulder machined on the top movement plate bottoms out against it and held in place by the casing screws. The dial is not forced up against the dial seat at all.

Look at a picture of a 1520/30/60/70 and you can see how the top plate is made...the top plate is smaller in diameter above the shoulder.

It has been years since I worked on a genuine 5512/13 and I never noticed any of this and never measured the diameter of the dial window.

The dial windows on my Yuki 5512 and 5513 cases both have an OD of 25.6mm and the dial mounts up against the dial seat.

Questions:

1...Anyone know the dial window diameter of a genuine 5512/5513 case? The dials are 26.0mm. 

2...Anyone put a 5512/13 project together with oem spec dial/case and notice a space between the dial and case?

3...There was a post on here a year or two showing a genuine 5512 or 5513 case with a caliper in the dial window taking the measurement but I can not find it. Anyone have a link to it?

"why's that 1016 so expensive?"

I remember them shooting up in the mid to late 1990s from under $2000 to over $3000. They just caught on I guess. Tutones were falling out of favor at the time and stainless watches were getting hot.

A friend who worked in a rolex AD in the mid 1990s was working on his grandson's 1016 and he told me the grandson said they were already going for over $3000 in many places. First we heard about it, we figured they were $1500 watches until then.

I've had almost everything needed to put one together using nos parts for years...nos no hack 1570, trit dial/hands, T22, tube/crown, bezel etc.

...everything but a case and case back.  

The dial is for a 1980s hack model but maybe it would be Ok. Hacks showed up in force in the early 1970s (1972 being what many 'experts' say) and my 1570 was made around 1970 as the watch it came in was stamped 1970 inside the case back.

I kept a few mail out flyers from watch dealers and was looking at some of them today...one from Bob Wingate in Dallas TX and one from Jeff Bernard in Dallas TX.

Here are a few prices from Wingate and Bernard from the summer of 1997 with all watches rated to be in very good to near mint condition.

There were 231 watches in the Wingate flyer...

1665...$3350

1016...$3250

16710...$2295

6694 on leather strap...$665

16800...$2195

5512 on leather strap...$1195

(2) 5513 on oyster...one $1395 and one $1475

1680 on oyster...$2195

1675 SS/14K on strap...$1650

1675 SS on jubilee...$1575

1665 on oyster...$3395

6265 SS on oyster...$6695

NIB Seamaster Pro on bracelet, all 18K...$6495

Bernard had 93 watches in his flyer, not many rolex...

1601 with WG bezel and swiss jubilee...$1025

Longines Conquest 18K auto on strap...$195 (!!)  I called about it but missed it.

6694 on oyster...$625

Universal Geneve 14K auto on strap...$195

APRO NM quartz with blue dial...$1700

PP Nautilus, auto with blue dial ref 3800 in 90% condition...$5100

My advice is to keep looking.

Many of the best buys are in out of the way pawn shops, car shows, gun shows, local newspaper ads, people needing $$ etc. Put the word out locally.

Watch dealers, eBay etc usually have the highest prices.

I have said this many times...on any vintage watch, check for case corrosion. There is a lot of out junk out there.

I missed out on them again...maybe better off. Who knows?

Have one replica folded 7206 and it is not too hot. Can not remember where it came from but it came on a watch of some sort. It might be Ok if I changed out the clasp and all the tubes and rivets...have to change the tubes/rivets just to make sure it stays together because a few rivets are already loose in the tubes.

I have a few genuine C&I folded oysters but never used them on replicas because they are to use on genuine pie pan DJs. I do know one thing...they are hair pullers and sure can get on your nerves.

Bought a couple 7836 folded bracelets from 'Mary' a couple years ago and they have been fine. Have a spare genuine folded link and compared it with links on the 'Mary' bracelets and they are very similar.

Iirc they were about $60US each and well worth the $$. I have never seen a replica 9315 with flip lock but did put a long submariner type f/l clasp on one of the 7836 by changing out the connecting link where it meets up with the clasp. Did not use a diver extension so it's still 'legal'  Ha!  

My first Asian etaclone claimed to be swiss and with eta markings was from 'Paul' at Abay about 5 or 7 years ago...maybe longer. Paul said he did not know it was a clone and made it up in a later deal. After that I really slowed down buying replicas but a few friends did not so I have seen a lot of eta signed clones since then...all claimed to be "swiss" of course.

I guess it was about 5 years ago when they really hit the market in full force with a few actual 'swiss etas' thrown it now and then. Now, going from what I have seen and read there are very few actual swiss made etas showing up.

So I agree with mymanmatt when he says not to expect a swiss eta no matter what the seller says and if you do happen to get a swiss eta, do not expect it to be new or in top notch condition.

I do not know what qualifies as a 'keeper' but if I spotted one from a 'trusted whatever', I would go with the Asian eta clone and be prepared to buy a genuine swiss eta and have it c/o and install it in the watch later.

Buying a watch with an Asian '21 jewel' movement to save $$ is Ok unless you plan to install an eta movement later because the dial and hands will not fit on an eta. If you do swap the '21' out for an eta you will need a set of hands and will have to figure out a way to mount the dial without dial feet.

Basic '21 jewel' types used in many replicas...

Miyota clones

Seagull ST6 and ST16

The Seagull ST16 is a combination of Miyota clone and Seiko with a Miyota type movement and Seiko 'magic lever' type winding system. The ST6 is a model made from scratch in the 'traditional' design with the autowind assembly screwed on top of a basic hand wind movement. The ST6 is smaller than average but has an oversize top (dial side) plate to allow it to be used in regular watches.

I have had good luck with ST6 and ST16.

The ST16 is also souped up in switzerland and renamed the 'swiss made' Claro CL-888...it used to be called the Claro Semag CL-888.

www.clarowatch.com/movements.html

Older 15xx powered rolex watches are fine if the case is not rotted out but I see more and more for sale that are basically junk (imho) with a like new price tag.

'Patina' is one thing...corrosion is another. New O rings will not fix corrosion. The only fix is laser welding and it is expensive. Sometimes you can machine the gasket area on the case/case back but you will need a thicker gasket to make up for it and if it is an O ring, you would have to go wider too. Not an easy fix.

Dials and hands with missing radium and tritium are hard to fix too.

The reason many late comers to the rolex game want their 'tool watches' to look the part is so they can appear to others to be a Tuff Guy who has been on dangerous adventures. Many of them were not even born when the watches were in use. Posers. 

Otoh I guess I am a poser too for wearing a Frankenstein. 

Never had an IG44 6538 case. I have an IG44 1680 case that I got from another member and it is well made but has a 'canoe' lug shape when viewed from the side. It looks more like an early 1680 than the later models we are used to. The lug shape would not be noticed at all when wearing the watch and the overall quality is first class.

When I see genuine 5512/13 and 1680 with beat up corroded cases and ratty dials/hands priced at $6k and up, it is easy to understand why Frankensteins are popular.

I can not understand why anyone would want an old $6k dive watch that fogs up every time you walk out of an air conditioned building into the summer heat.   

Someone in the know can tell if an ST19 will match the V72 sub dial hand positions but I will say from experience that the ST19 is a very good, reliable movement.

The dial feet are not a match of course so it might be a problem mounting the dial securely.