automatico

You can really learn a lot...

Average TRF question:

"Should I buy a new 116610LV to go with my green suede Church's tassel loafers?"    

Average VRF question:

"I just bought this 1680, does the dial look Ok?"  

I got two like new watches from members that are really nice...an omega 'coax' seamaster with a modified Miyota 8215 and a sapphire milgauss with an erratic Asian 2836. I plan to replace the etaclone with a new swiss Eta 2836 to make it reliable.

I am not a fan of Asian etaclones of any sort.

Best 'home built' watch of 2014 is a '5513' with an MBK case, Yuki dial, Clark/ST bezel kit, Clark 19, TC case tube/crown and 1520. The downside is the 1520, I am always waiting for it to blow up and need part$...usually autowind stuff or a broken balance staff.

Genuine rolex movements are cool but they are expensive! compared to swiss Eta (and not as rugged imho).

"Keep looking" is the best advice you can get.

I bought a real nice 16233 a few years ago for $1000 (L457xxx with lug holes, fluted bezel, 22 link jubilee, goldtone dial), and a friend traded into a tutone 1601 DJ last week with a 'big logo' clasp on a swiss jubilee for around $1000 at a gun show.

Internet prices can be twice what a local price might be.

Rolex buying tips:

Dress like a bum, act sorta dumb, and carry a wad of CA$H.  

If you don't know the ropes, you gonna get hung.

The more you know, the less you lose.

Make an offer, haggle a minute, then walk away.

Common lies:

"It is one hundred percent genuine".

"It has just been serviced".

"I have more than that in it."

"That IS my best price."

"I bought it to keep."

"It's collectible."

Yeah and my cat speaks Chinese.  

It might take a year to make a rolex but a buyer is born every minute.  

I do not know much about vintage Daytonas but do know that they are one of the most expensive Frankenstein projects you can tackle if you go with a Val 72 and miscellaneous genuine parts.

As for 100% replicas, there are quite a few choices...swiss and Asian 7750 with automatic winding, swiss and Asian 7750 with autowind rotor removed, swiss 7760 manual wind, Chinese seagull ST19 manual wind etc. All have their advantages and faults, usually having to do with sub dial spacing, pusher offset, or case thickness.

Then there is the 'closest to genuine' bezel and dial to find, closest case with offset pushers, plastic insert or all steel bezel, 'pumpers' or 'screw down' pushers.

It never ends.

I bought a couple of the first Seagull ST19 powered Daytonas with the subdial at 6 frozen (hour counter) but they were waaay off...glass crystal, about 3 or 4mm too big in diameter, 20mm bracelet (should be 19mm), evenly spaced pushers etc. They still run almost 10 years later though.

You might go back a few years and start reading posts about vintage Daytonas in the rolex section and by the time you have read through to the present you will have a good understanding of what is available and maybe decide on what you want to go with. All of the latest offerings are a whole lot closer than what I got.

Maybe a 'cartel' Daytona with a ST19 would be a good place to start while you decide to go Frankenstein or not.

I gave up on Daytonas and stayed with 5512/13, 1680, 1016, and 5500 explorers with the no date models being quite a bit easier because they sidestep date wheel and crystal magnifier problems.

My year and a half old MBK POLEX 1680 and age unknown 5513 cases are all L342xxx.

I wonder just how many 'Genuine' POLEX MBW/MBK 5512/13, 1680, and 1665 cases are owned by RWG members? No 'unmarked/claimed to be' cases allowed.

I have two 1680 cases from Reg and one 5513 case from a trusted RWG member = three (3).

If the Y3135 is the same size as genuine, the stem will be about .4mm too far toward the front of the case tube. Hard to fix.

A thin spacer between the dial and reflector ring (rehaut) inside the case will work but it is a real hassle to make a spacer this thin. I made one for a DW '5513' case in order to put a 1520 in it (they are made for a 1575 date mvt). Making the thin spacer out of an aluminum washer was more trouble than it was worth and I had to use an old 'ww' bezel chuck from the 1920s or 1930s to hold it. I could have used stainless steel but it is harder to work with. Factories usually die stamp small parts like this, they do not machine them.

The market is so small for some of this stuff that you have to go to an obscure $10k a week looney bin down in the tropics to find a buyer.

...or VRF.

When I saw Freddy's 25-18, I jumped up and took off to look and do not have any 25-18 but do have three 25-19 and a few 25-22 . The catch is I do not have a genuine 5512/13 or 1016 and use generics on projects.

I wonder how long the crystals will keep before they get brittle? All but two of the 25-22 are in little paper envelopes from the 1980s. The 25-19 are in sealed plastic bags.

For some reason I have about a dozen 25-117 (case # 1500 etc).

My guess is that it is a genuine Eta comparing it to a known to be genuine Eta on my desk. No guarantees.

If it can be established that the movement is genuine, it should be worth at least as much as a new etaclone with the 24 hour modification like listed on eBay from time to time. What knocks the value down to this level is the likely need for service.

These movements are getting hard to find in good condition.

Although the 24 hour modification is likely done in China, they give very little trouble as long as they are the type with non adjustable 24 hour hand.

Here is the scoop on the rolex cases...

The case neck on a genuine rolex 1500/1505/15000 etc is 28.5mm

The case neck on a genuine rolex 1002, 5500 etc is 28.15mm.

The case neck on a 34mm JMB Eta tudor case aka 'eat a tooter' is same as a rolex 1002, 5500 etc. Fine cases btw.

The 'average' #19 aftmkt crystal for 5512/13 will fit on the rolex 1002/5500 case as well as the 34mm JMB toot case.

Average = hit or miss, these things are not exactly precise, I used a #19 from ST.

An inner bezel from Clark or ST will press down Ok on the #19 on the cases with 28.15 case necks.

BUT...the rotating bezel is way too big for the case and sits on top of the crown. It looks awful.

Scratch that idea.

Bulova made a 34mm (+/-) dive watch in the 1960s with a dressy style case and rotating bezel that is one alternative. There are a couple rough examples on eBay, item numbers 161502223266 and 331419226981.

I attempted to restore a mid size quartz TAG Heuer Formula 1 WA1211 with steel case/bracelet and plastic bezel. I did Ok until I got to the bezel. They are way over $100 on eBay and I found a supplier in the UK who has them for around $70US but they will not answer my email. I am almost $200 into the project and stalled out because I refuse to be screwed by an eBay opportunist. 

My usual rant...parts are always the problem and rapidly getting worse. 

dtm

The '13 is A-Ok! I like it with the 7206 hair puller.

I got 5512 and 5513 cases (one each) from Yuki a few months back with random serial numbers and the 5512 is 290xxxx (around 1970) while the 5513 is 551xxxx (around 1978). This worked out Ok (luck of the draw) because the 1570 for the 5512 is a no hack and the 1520 for the 5513 is a hack. I was going to put them in genuine AK and 1002 cases with Yuki explorer dials but extra nice genuine cases cost about as much now as Yuki cases.

I was going to use MKB cases but the trouble I had putting a 1520 in an MBK 5513 case broke me from trying it again and this is why I got the Yuki cases.

Imho Yuki cases are a good choice and save a lot of hassles.

Yep, the 1030 has slipped over the cliff into never never land along with the cursed A260 etc. The A260 will not be missed but the 1030 was a good movement. The 1530 base movements are next although they seem to hold up pretty good except for the somewhat fragile autowind assembly with jeweled bearings and steel rotor axle. The aw assembly is basically Ok if you c/o them in between major movement services. I have a 1520 that I have worn for less than a year since c/o and the rotor axle is dry as a bone. I used D5 on it last time (calls for PML163). They are just not very tuff.

What the world needs is a Bulova Precisionist movement that will work with vintage rolex dials and kicks about 20,000 times an hour.

I figured someone needed to answer this question because iirc no one on the forum has tried this before.

There are quite a few members who could do this but since it would probably be the first time for anyone on the forum putting one of these together there will no doubt be details that cause trouble. I have way too many projects that need to be finished before I could see how the basics fit together but maybe someone will try it after reading this thread. A watch made up from odds and ends will be a 'fantasy' watch but it would be unique and imho pretty cool. Sort of a shrunken no crown guard submariner.

There are three things with any watch project that hold all of us back...time and money plus knowing how to do the work. I have the parts and know how to do projects like this but I always get bogged down on something and it ends up taking 5 times as long as expected. For instance, I have an old gold plated gent's Wittnauer T lug quartz watch with a waffle pattern black dial and a small diamond at 12 from the 1980s that stops running too soon after installing a new battery so I figured it needed cleaning and oiling (2 hand Eta 561.001). Easy fix. Ha! I have been on it part time for two days and still have a little left to do. Part of the problem turned out to be the hour hand hub rubbing the dial because the dial feet were mounted a hair out of spec. When the battery got low the watch would stop, same symptom as a dirty movement but it had two problems, being dirty and the hour hand hub rubbing the dial and these two problems caused the battery to run down much quicker than normal, Because of the friction, I had to file out the center hole in the dial to one side to allow for room for the hour hand hub, touch up the bare metal on the dial hole etc, etc.

I should have pitched it in the junk box but I took it apart so I wanted to fix it. This watch finished and with a new strap might bring $25.

Multiply this by 30 or 40 and that's how projects usually go.

Maybe in the next few days I can try 5513 and 1680 dials in 1500/15000 cases and see how they fit plus try a crystal. One good thing is for anyone wanting a watch like this is there is always a slew of 1500/15000 on eBay and they do not sell too high. A replica 34mm tudor case might also work if a 1500/15000 will. If it was me, I would try to find a case that will accept a 26mm no date dial to avoid date wheel problems. Like I said, I do not know if a 5512/13 dial will work in a 1500/15000 but I know for sure that a genspec 1680 dial will.

A rolex 5512/13 number 19 crystal and a number 127 for a 1680 is a close fit on a rolex 1500/15000 case and this means a genspec bezel set for a 5512/13 and 1680 will be a close fit.

A 26.5mm 1680 dial will fit in a 1500/15000 case. A 26mm 5512/5513 dial might be too small, I do not know for sure.

You can use a 6.0mm crown for a late sapphire DJ on the 5.3mm standard case tube in a 1500/15000 case for a larger crown.

Use a Yuki 1680 dial with an Eta movement and the proper date wheel overlay.

So...it would not be too hard to make up a 34mm minimariner.

'Close fit' = may need some modifying.

"Craigslist if you feel like buying from the crazies."

You just helped coin the official nickname for it...

'Crazylist'  

How about:

Take two medium size Vise Grip pliers and taper one jaw on each one on a grinder to more or less match the bottom curve of an oyster link.

Drill and tap one hole each on the tops of the jaws of a bench vise...about 8mm or 5/16US.

Drill one mounting hole in the most suitable jaw on each Vise Grip.

Mount the Vise Grips to the vise jaws with bolts.

Line the Vise Grip jaws with soft copper or brass.

Clamp the link with the Vise Grips and unscrew the vise jaws to pull it apart.

Most bench vises are made of nodular iron and it is fairly easy to drill and tap. The Vise Grip jaws might be a little harder but it can be done. I eyeballed my vises and Vise Grips and it looked like it would not be too hard to do.

I had one of these new in August 1998 when I traded an old genuine patek ellipse for it even. I bought the patek for a little bit over scrap.

The dial on the 'Daytona' was not too hot but the movement was Ok and the made in Italy case and bracelet were first class.

OT...

The patek had the 23-300 movement in it and they are known to be somewhat fragile (I'm being nice here). I'll never understand how patek philippe got the reputation they have making prissy delicate little country club watches (not being nice this time).

Maybe it's because you never really own one.   

The tutone 16013 case (link above) on eBay for $350 is not too bad because the gold bezel is worth at least $100 and the case does not look like it is corroded where the case back gasket seals.

Corrosion is a big problem on older rolex cases.

I bought a movement from L. Ruiz (the tutone case seller) and it was Ok.

As long as you have the original dial and hands it really does not matter what you put on the watch. I have a couple AK with Yuki 'Explorer' dials/hands and also have the original dials/hands so when I sell one they will be included.

They may sell better with the Yuki dials anyway, except to nutty purist types.

A 1002 etc dial will have the 'Certified Chronometer' blurb so they are not suited to an AK.

I make them out of small plastic rods or plastic toothpicks and drill a small indention in the center of the end and slightly rough up the outer ring left around the indention with sandpaper. Works like a charm.

Wood leaves residue so it's a good idea to stay away from wood.

Imho $250 would knock that crystal in the head.

I just turned down $1M for my set of three nos tritium 1016 hands.

...or was it $100?  

It does not matter because I can't find them anyway.  

I know a goober who has spent at least $250k on rolexjunk in the past 20 years. He started out in a nice new house with a new car and a Hot wife and now he is down to a small apartment, a ratty old car, and no wife. Evidently he lost money on every watch he bought.

No, it's not me, I am dead nuts even on them, maybe a little bit ahead.

Over the years I have known a few characters that had a genuine rolex obsession. Very few of them ever recovered financially.

Otoh I might have a fake rolex obsession.   

update 12-16

Just saw a GF vintage clasp for sale on VRF for $590. A clasp! For five hundred and ninety USD!

...and it sold!

Insanity.

In a few years when the guys who paid $50k for an old rolex (that sold for $350 new) go RIP, many of their wives or kids will sell 'Dad's old watch' for a few hundred bucks. They have no idea he paid $50k for it because he kept it a secret so his family would not have him committed to the looney bin.

Looks like a (Chinese) Beijing SZB-1C or one of the derivatives.

They are better than they look.

flyr...

If you want some ST springbars or anything else from them, I can order it and send it on up.

It will cost you exactly what it cost me plus actual shipping cost to Canada. I will order a few items from ST at the same time and split the $7.50 shipping with you and I'll pay the residential delivery upcharge.

If you want anything from Clark's etc it's the same deal.

CP...

Good job on the dial!

Question...did the case come with a bezel and how come you used a Clark bezel kit?

The reason for asking is that I put a '5513' together a few months back using an MBK case and I went with a Clark/ST bezel kit because after changing crystals the only bezel combination that worked properly was the Clark/ST set (Clark and ST are identical). The original MBK bezel set just would not work properly and rotation was not smooth at all, I had to use rubber gloves to get it to turn all the way around. With the Clark/ST set the rotating bezel stays in place until you press down on it then it rotates smoothly in both directions as it should.

I think it is best to not have very high expectations on your 'next' aftmkt or refinished dial because they are so chancy and hit or miss. This comes from owning various dials of all kinds from Chris to Paul, Yuki to IG44, plus a couple 'like new' J&W dials. Most members know who 'Paul' is but no one except me knows who 'Chris' is. Thank goodness.

I would say around $125/$150 is about the max I will pay for a good aftmkt dial because at $125 to $150 I can stand getting a dud now and then but ratty $500/$1000 dials are hard to swallow. After all, some of the crappiest dials are over $500.

Imho no aftmkt dial is worth over a couple hundred bucks unless it will fool just about every 'expert' on the planet. Think of the size of the market for these things...maybe a few thousand guys in the whole wide world, even when including the "I don't lie" 'Serious Rolexpert Dealers'. Because so many dud dials are cranked out, the dial 'dealers' can really jack the price up when a good dial does come along while the average crap is sold to guys like me.

In my Crystal Ball, I see a table in a HK market with 100 dials spread around on it, all are $25 each and all were made by the same dial maker but on different days. A Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday dial may retail for $700 where a Monday or Friday dial might go for $50 or end up on eBay.  

"You can't fool me with that dial, I'm a damn expert!"  

The secret is out!  

You just discovered the quartz watch mechanic's secret...lighter fluid!, although most use the Ronsonol brand in the yellow bottle or can.

Lighter fluid is the same thing as $45 a gallon watch rinse. It's not a cleaner but a rinse, and this is usually all you need on a quartz watch.

I know at least three pro repair guys who use it on quartz watches. It is a very good idea to remove the circuit board and coil to prevent damage and many times you will need to take the movement apart and clean any metal 'whiskers' off the step motor on older movements. Follow up with a nano dose of light watch oil on pivots and awaaay they go.

I bet I have rinsed out a few hundred Miyota 2030/2035 with Ronsonol.

Heat welded plastic movements such as the Hattori (Seiko) PC20/21 etc will stop and can not be taken apart (they also do not take kindly to lighter fluid) but they can usually be jumped off by spinning the sweep second hand around clockwise a couple dozen times and applying a tiny bit of oil here and there. The PC sells for around $5 and the Miy 2030/35 for around $7.

I have a friend who owns a Miy 2035 powered watch that has been running for over 20 years (rinsed/oiled twice, once after a trip through the washer/dryer in a coat pocket) and have a few PC 21 running for over 10 years in miniature brass clocks. The 377 batts go for about a year and a half in either one. They are just about the toughest analog quartz movements around.

For special occasions...

Made up a Mickey Mouse watch using a Disney 'Blue Sky Mickey' dial, goldtone Dauphine hands, PC20 in a 34mm round snapback 14k Bulova case from 1953 sporting a gen-u-wine black shark skin strap and gold Bulova buckle. 

No snobby gold oysterquartz el prezidente for me thank you.   

Miy 2025 and PC20 have two hands.

Miy 2030/35 and PC21 have three hands.