automatico

Very Nice 5513!

OT note on swisseta 2846...

Many of them are old and tired and need close inspection for worn parts (especially in the autowind assembly), c/o, plus a new mainspring. On 17 jewel models, the 17 jewel a/w assembly can be swapped out for one from a 25 jewel model to lower friction in the autowind assembly.

Be sure the balance jewels are separated, thoroughly cleaned, and properly oiled. Also be sure to clean and oil the pallet stones/escape wheel teeth. Make sure the watch is 'in beat' and the hairspring is level and not touching anything. Demagnetize it.

It's easy to understand why the world went to quartz watches.   

I have a few genuine 1601/1603 and what gets me is that so many of them are corroded where the case back gasket seals them up. The case and case back both are prone to corrosion.

My best looking case is corroded the worst. Whoever owned it must have worked in a battery acid factory.

My worst looking case with worn lugs and beat all to hell-o has no corrosion. The owner must have worked in a rock quarry.

Now acrylic crystal 3035 quick set models are considered to be 'vintage' but I do not go along with it because I figure 'vintage' models must have acrylic crystals, slow set movements, and 1200 or 1530 base or earlier movements.

T or F:

Rolex stopped making 'real watches' in the late 1970s except for a few 1530/1200 base 1016, 5513, 6694, 5500 AK etc.     

If rolex stopped making 'real watches' in the late 1970s, are sapphire replicas really replicas?   

"...after 50+ years of counterfeiting, still no perfect rolex."

Yeah, I know what you mean and besides, they made so many versions of genuine watches of the same reference number that there is no 'perfect' rolex to go by.

"I would love to know where you got the Singer dials from."

A dealer called "Paul" about 10 or 12 years ago. They are 100% fake, same as most of what you see on 'refinished' dials today.

I have used green but like the blue best. Iirc it is made by A*F.

Never used gray.

WCM

How I removed the rust from inside my tutone 15053 case...

Removed the bezel, crystal, and case tube.

Soaked the case and case back in 'Liquid Wrench' penetrating oil for a week or so. It is in a spray can and I sprayed it into a small cup.

Rubbed the remaining rust residue away with wooden toothpicks.

Washed the case in hot soapy water with an old toothbrush (Dawn dish washing soap).

The case parts came out without a trace of rust.

Rust remover gel will work too but you can not leave it very long as it might discolor the stainless steel.

The rust stains on the movement plates never came all the way off and the plates are rough in spots where the plating was leached away. The rust came off unplated brass parts just fine. The steel wheels and pivots in the reversers were rusted away as were most of the train wheel pivots. The hairspring, balance staff, and roller table are fine. The pallet fork and pivot are Ok. The escape wheel is junk. The dial was badly stained but the hands and markers are Ok.

No telling where this 15053 was leaking but I have seen quite a few rolex movements with rust on the stem and setting parts from a leaking crown or caseback. The first things rust attacks are the stem, setting parts (set lever etc) screws, and bare steel parts like the click. When they get as bad as the movement pictured, they are usually not worth repairing because of today's parts and labor prices.

I have been screwing with watches for over 40 years (20+ with replicas) and could not help but learn a thing or two.

A few are listed below in no particular order:

1...Look at every watch as it is, not as it could be.

2...After estimating a repair or project, double it just to be safe.

3...Stay away from expensive brands that do not sell parts.

4...Do not assume a genuine rolex movement is any 'better' than a fresh Eta in a project watch.

5...Keep at least 330 feet (100M) away from all AD except to window shop.

6...Never buy a new watch for list price when hundreds of good used examples are available for half price. They are all used after you wear them.

7...Always take "It has just been serviced" with a huge grain of salt.

8...There is no such thing as a 'Grail Watch". Think of them as potential ex-wives to put them in perspective.

9...Quartz beats mechanical hands down (especially chronographs) but they are just not as 'cool'.

10...Never believe a depth rating.

11...If a watch fogs up, it is usually from a leak, not a change of temperature.

12...All watches look better on someone else's wrist.

13...Never artificially 'age' a watch if you plan to ever sell it.

14...The more expensive a watch is, the more fragile it usually is, and the more expensive it will be to repair (Patek, AP, VC etc come to mind). 

15...Any 'project' replica watch is only worth the sum of the parts no matter how much it cost to put together.

16...I have 15 or 20 dials that I got from 'Paul' with Singer perfectly stamped on the back. Does anyone doubt they are genuine? Nooooooooooooooo.

17..."An etaclone is just as good as a genuine Eta." Sellita maybe, but not the Chinese ones.

18 "Swiss Made" my azz. A large percentage of 'swiss made' watches are 90% Chinese by volume and 51% swiss by cost.

19...The Seiko Kinetic and others like it are the answer to a question not asked. Who needs an automatic quartz watch?

20...Hairsprings are the bane of the universe.

Etc, etc.

Note:

Number 6 helps to qualify number 5.

Thanks.

I was referring to the slight bevels on the top edge of the lugs. Maybe they can also be cut like you mentioned. 

Polishing the case sides and case back might be a hassle.

The only machine work I do is making bezels etc one at a time along with a few other odds and ends.

You might find a new or used stainless Kenneth Cole made to the specs you want. KC watches are good quality for the $$.

I believe you could make good $$ if you could make oem spec vintage rolex cases. Not much demand for other brands. The biggest expense would probably be buying 316 bar stock and/or sheet.

You would need the specs off a genuine 5513 and 1680 in good condition or a Yuki, Phong etc case that is very, very close.

The difference between the average repjunk and high grade cases is the high grade case makers pay a lot more attention to details such as exact distances between lugs, accurately sized case necks/bezels, accurately machined interior of the case, correctly sized lug holes in the correct location, case tube threads accurately placed with the correct relief cut for the case tube gasket etc. One tricky part is probably going to be cutting proper bevels on lug tops and polishing because it can not be done on a machine (unless you have a special machine for it).

Leave the engraving to someone else and besides...unsigned vintage cases are 100% legal.

A friend makes a lot of hand made parts, mostly special tools and things for motorcycles (not cnc) and he saws out flat metal close to what he needs then mills/turns it to size. Without a heavy duty punch press and appropriate dies there is not much of an easier way to rough out the blanks on a small scale.

Good luck!

This is OT but I have never seen a genuine ETA 28xx made in the last 25 years without a trademark. I have seen outright fake Asian etaclone 28xx with the ETA shield and have owned a few claimed to be swiss that were not. Also seen Asian etaclones with no trademarks at all, 28xx and 7750. Seen quite a few older swiss 7750 with the Valjoux 'R' instead of the ETA shield. Seen a few Asian 7750 with the ETA shield. Never saw a swiss 7750 without a trademark.

I went back and looked at my two MBK '93150' bracelets (never looked them over closely) and HH is right. On top of everything else, both of mine have half links like later models.

Not very close after all, probably made out of '93250' bracelets.

Wonder if rolex ever laser etched numbers/letters between lugs before they went to bezel numbers? My P716xxx and K933xxx Air Kings look like the numbers/letters are engraved like older models. They are the latest watches I have looked at closely and are from around 2000/2001 or so.

Like kbh said, it might be the crown clutch slipping. To check it, pull out slightly when setting the time and see if the crown clutch engages. Usually clutch trouble is caused by a weak spring that puts tension on the telescoping tube but sometimes it is the clutch itself that goes bad. If it is the clutch itself, pulling out on the crown will not cure the problem.

If it is not the crown, you may have something out of whack in the setting works or the pressed in minute wheel gear slipping like SSTEEL said.

I have had trouble with Chinese etaclones and do not work on them. For this reason, my advice is to change over to a swisseta if the clone will be much trouble to fix. It's more expensive but it turns a very good watch (TC sub) into a fine watch...even if it is a replica.

Swisseta vs etaclone...

If you need to remove the movement, hands, dial etc and take an etaclone apart to fix it, you are usually better off to swap it out with a swisseta because labor cost is the same or even less on a swisseta. All you need is a good swiss 2824 with H4 canon pinion and any associated parts and then swap out the TC date wheel complete with the date wheel on the swisseta. The etaclone H4 parts will probably interchange but I have never done it.

As for H4 canon pinion parts for the swiss eta...now is the time to stock up on them before Swatch cuts parts off in 2016. 

I traded into a like new genuine quartz TAG Heuer Link for a little over $300 (not Tiger) with the box a while back. Bought two genuine Aquaracers for around $200 each, a TAG 1000 for $40 etc, etc.

As cheap as used genuine TAG watches are, I would shop around before buying a replica. Look at pawn shops, gun shows (yes, gun shows), car shows, watch shows, local newspapers etc.

TAG and other quartz watches are fairly cheap at NAWCC watch shows because the main interest is in mechanical watches.

Do not buy a watch needing a bezel, clasp, or more than one or two links. Bezels and clasps are n/a except from $authorized$ TAG repair depots and links are around $25 to $40 each on eBay. You can usually find aftmkt bezel inserts if needed and some supply houses have genuine case tubes and crowns at reasonable prices. Crystals are mostly generic.

Anyone with less than five thumbs can change out a battery.

The Omega chronograph is Ok but since the new swatch 'no parts 4U' policy, thehellwith'em. The only one I could take seriously is the Seiko GS GMT...if it was $399 retail. It actually looks like a watch.

The EMC looks like a $12 kid watch.

The Lange looks like crop circles.

The emerald and diamond Bull-garish looks like something ET puked up on the second bounce when he landed.

The white bread aka Blancpain looks like it was made out of a Persian cat head.

The Gronefeld looks like a child molester clown smiling at a kid.

The Claret looks like a '60s trippie hippie passed out face down in a daisy patch.

The De Bethune with the out of round case looks like it is has no idea what time it is.

The Voutilainen looks like snakes boiling up out of a witch cauldron.

The Hublot conFusion would pass for a 'buy it now' $75 Invicta.

The Beguet 2422 has sort of a classic look, something like what Jack the Ripper might have worn.

The Urban Jergensen looks like it has Inspector Clouseau's magnifier for an hour hand and a windshield wiper at the top.

The Zenith looks like it blew up and they stuffed the parts back in the case before anyone noticed.

Maybe remove the Omega and Seiko and call it 'The World's Worst Watches For 2014'.  

I looked at some cases...

The op crystal neck looks maybe a hair wider than my MBK, two hairs wider than my Yuki and about three hairs wider than my 'Paul' cartel watch cases. In reality, not enough difference by eyeball to matter.

They tend to all be pretty much the same when made close to oem spec because of the need to accept T19 crystals and 26.0mm dials. The 'Paul' cartel cases accept oem spec crystals/bezels and will take 26.5mm to 29.2mm dials because they have a 26.0 dial window opening with a 29.25mm dial seat.

If you remove the movement, bezels, and crystal, then sand the 'rehaut' at the top of your case to thin it down you may end up with the angle down to the dial rounded off a little, maybe enough to see, maybe not.

Narrowing the top of the 'rehaut' is the opposite of removing the 'wok' in a 'wokky' rehaut. To remove the 'wok' you have to either cut a short 90 degree angle (straight up from the dial) in the 'rehaut' down next to the dial to break the 'wok angle' or recut the entire angle from the dial up to the top without enlarging the dial window any more than necessary. When doing this you have to be able to increase the angle of the reflector enough to remove the 'wok' effect and still have the dial window close to the same size, all without running out of 'virgin' metal and leaving a break in the angle of the reflector surface.

To narrow the top of the 'rehaut' you would need to remove some metal at the top while being able to cut all the way down to the dial seat without running out of 'virgin metal' or opening the dial window up much at all. Not easy to do. 

Virgin metal = metal below the original machine cut of the reflector. You do not want to have two different angles intersecting on the reflector/rehaut.

From having at least 1000 screw-ups to my credit, my advice is to let it be.

I bought 2 new MBK 1680 a couple years ago and one had a real good '93150' with hollow mid links etc and the other one had the same clasp and hoods but with solid mid links. If I could find some good 'connecting links' that go between the bracelet and the case, I would try to put a hollow link bracelet together using bracelet links from a 'noobmariner' with the sel and half link removed and use regular type 'last links' on each end and the MBK '93150' clasp. It is fairly easy to take the bracelets apart at the big ends.

I noticed some of the 'noobmariner' bracelets have bushings over the bracelet screws like genuine and some do not, it's better to have them if possible as it tightens them up and slows down wear. I have looked at a lot of bracelets and it seems (to me) that the 'noobmariner' bracelets are some of the best.

I saw where ST had hollow mid link replacement links for sale again so I got a few but the slot in the screw head is very narrow. I will try their replacement screws for genuine links with wider slots and see if they will work.

It sure would be nice if TC could get some 93150 bracelets made.

Maybe we could take a count and see how many we can buy to make a minimum order, say at $55 or $60 each

I would take 10 if a deal could be made.

As with all special orders, 'Backouts' will be shot.  

In my experience, most of the trouble with replicas is with screw down crowns/case tubes and movements in general. It seems most replica case tubes and crowns are not up to everyday wear of winding/setting and many movements are not in very good condition to begin with.

TC watches are fine as for case, dial, tube/crown, bracelet etc but they have Asian Eta clones and there are no replacement parts except genuine Eta if they will fit. A genuine swiss Eta can be installed in a TC watch if needed and you are set for years as long as the swiss Eta is in good condition. BK watches have a good reputation too and I believe they come with swiss Etas.

I would guess that a TC, BK and quite a few others will go 20 or 25 years with good care and proper service.

My oldest running watch is a Waltham pocket watch made in 1892 and my oldest running replica is a 'DJ' with an Eta 2846 that I got in the mid 1980s for $75 from a USA Today ad.

Something else to consider...since genuine oem brands have cut most of the parts off to non AD shops (with rules not to sell parts but only install them on the customer's watch at Highway Robbery prices), you are really in much worse shape with a genuine watch needing a crown, crystal etc after the warranty has expired than a replica with the same ailment.

Examples:

I have two genuine steel TAG Heuer F1 (WA1211, WA1411) with steel bracelets and both need new black plastic bezels. Since T/H is an infamous 'No Parts For You!' company in the USA, just one bezel would cost more than I paid for both watches together and new examples are over $100 each on eBay. It's crazy, $100+ for what should be a $20 part at full retail.

Catch 22...T/H will not sell the bezel without an 'inspection' leading to a $400 'overhaul' of a $50 watch. Insanity.

Meanwhile another guy is selling generic sapphire crystals for them for $43, MG for $22 and bracelet 'cotter pins' at 10 for $25.

The MG crystals cost $2 each, sapphire $15 each, and the pins are $3 for 10. 

My advice...buy a TC and don't look back.  

Regarding highly modified watches with high priced components (cases, dials etc)...

I have quite a few old and new 'cartel' cases, dials etc and I really do not think there is much of a loss when one is damaged or ruined by a modifying mistake.

Otoh, I have a three MBK, two Yuki, and one Phong rolex vintage style cases that I will not touch with a file, grinder etc because one slip and they are damaged from now on and my 'investment' (Ha!) is partially or totally lost. Exceptions are maybe running a drill bit through a lug hole now and then or swapping bezels and case backs around.

Besides the chance of damaging a case, these cases will almost always be worth more to someone else in original, unmodified condition, even as a complete watch. When I see a case I would like to have and the word 'modded' is in the description, I steer clear...same with the word 'aged'.

TomHorn has a good point about using Eta movements instead of oem movements as you may have a hard time recovering your $$ from a 'Frankenstein' with a genuine movement vs the same watch with a (swiss) Eta. My two current running 'Frankensteins' (5513 and 1680) nave genuine movements because I do not have cases for the movements. Since I have more movements than cases and genuine cases have gone up so much in the past few years, it is either a Frankenstein or a watch consisting of all genuine parts with a ratty eBay case. I believe as time goes by, more and more 'Frankensteins' will be born by necessity...no matter how hard the purists try to prevent it.

It's like the Keystone Pipeline...sooner or later it will be built.

Quite a few detail differences between 36mm DJ and 34mm OPD:

Dial and hand size.

Bezel and crystal size.

Crown size...DJ is 6.0mm, OPD is 5.3mm.

Stem is a bit shorter on OPD.

Lug spacing...20mm on DJ, 19mm on OPD.

Different bracelet and hoods where they connect to the case...DJ is 20mm, OPD is 19mm.

Different spring bars where bracelet attaches to the case.

Same movement and case wrench size.

Different case back gaskets.

Edit 11-20:

I saw OD vs DJ but figured the op wanted info on the OPD vs the DJ but if they want specs on a manual wind OD they can easily find them.

As for sapphire on DJ and acrylic on OPD...they both come either way. Manual wind OP comes only with acrylic.

I often bury myself in details while trying to help by answering questions and need to shut up.  

q...

I guess the only replica I would ever recommend is a TC or BK but I would probably be quiet to keep from having to answer another 20 questions.

Regular 'what to buy' questions get the standard "I dunno" or "Bulova, Seiko, or Citizen."

I get asked replica type questions quite a bit (in person, not on forums) and I sometimes have to keep my big mouth shut because some of the dumazz questions just knock me back.

One question I get asked often is the never ending "Is it real?" I always say "If it was not real you could not see it."

Then the standard dumazz response after I tell someone that a watch is a replica pops out of their mouth...  

"How can you tell?"

I always say "It takes about 20 years."  

Some YoYo gave $660k for a watch that sold new for a few hundred bucks...and can be duplicated for a few thousand bucks today?

Insane.

He better sell it while they are hot. It might not bring $10k in a few years. Might even end up trading it for a couple Big Macs.

What if...

You lost it down a gopher hole.

Got mugged.

Forgot where you left it (on a hooker's bedside table).

Got it caught between the starter hot wire and frame of your Hot Rod '34 Ford (happened to a friend of mine).

A turkey buzzard flew away with it.

It fell off your arm in deep water while on a row boat ride.

etc, etc.

An American tourist in England on a row boat ride dropped both paddles in the water.

He floated around a couple hours and finally a tweedy Englishman comes by in a row boat with two young lady passengers.

The American shouts:

"Pardon me sir, may I borrow one of your oars?"

The Englishman shouts back:

"I'll have you know these two ladies are my sisters."

Bought a new steel 1603 from a local AD in 1972 and it was $260 out the door. The watch came with a crocodile strap/signed steel buckle on it and they gave me a C&I oyster bracelet with it. Wore it a few times, still have it.

Wore a steel 214 RR model most of the time back then. Bought the 214 in 1971 and it was $100 otd plus I traded in a worthless pin lever pocket watch to get around the fair trade law. Still have it too.

I have an MBK 5513 that I got new from F333 about two years ago and have worn it a lot since I stuck the first movement in it maybe a year and a half ago and it's on the second or third movement because I tend to swap them around. I did not try to age the watch at all but wore it daily and tried to take care of it.

Here is what is showing in terms of wear:

Light scuffs on the domed GS crystal.

Scuffs on the bracelet mostly on the 12 o'clock side (worn on left wrist).

Light scuffs on the sides of the case, no nicks.

Light scuffs on the sides of a few bracelet link sides.

Slight wear on the insides of the lugs where the outer bracelet links rub against them (I have owned a few high mileage DJs that had a lot of wear on the inside of the lug tips).

Some scratching on the center links where they rub the cutout in the hoods.

Bezel insert, crown, and crown guards are good as new.

Case back good as new (DW case back) mainly because it has a plastic sticker on it and has been on the watch only a few months.

Lug tops are good as new and bevels are fine.

Bezel teeth show no signs of damage.

When compared to a new MBK 1680 case, the 5513 definitely shows some wear/age but nothing stands out. It looks like a watch that has been used but has been taken care of (exactly what it is) and since it is a replica of a 40 year old watch, it appears to be 'in good condition for its age'. I see lots of watches in this condition that are 5 to 10 years old and I would guess that if someone takes care of a watch that it will look about like this one in 3 to 5 years. Nicks and dents can happen depending on what the owner does for a living, for recreation, and whether or not they try to take care of their watch.

Not to step on any toes but if I wanted a beater or artificially aged watch, I would start with a cheaper cartel/DW etc case because MBK cases are high quality, expensive, and getting harder to find.

The first 1016s had domed crystals so Himalayan mountain goats could not bite them off.