kanerich

In any case, we should always keep in mind that 99.99% of people don't know what's on your wrist and don't really care, and as people have rightly pointed out rep watches are not among the most harmful counterfeit products out there. Besides, hell -- there are kids getting raped in the streets and chained to machine guns in parts of Africa, there are tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis dying because the President of the United States thought invading their country would be a neat way to settle a family vendetta, give fat government contracts to his buddies' companies (now based in Dubai, natch) and solve the cheap gas supply problem in one fell swoop -- the rich being inconvenienced in their quest to get richer is not a major injustice in the grand scheme of things IMO. I just don't think it makes any of us Robin Hood. TTK, maybe.

I think you misconstrue my bum analogy. By your reasoning it's OK for someone to steal another person's identity (wear a rep), as long as they don't physically kidnap that person (steal a gen), which is not really true (don't get all worked up, I'm not equating rep wearing to identity theft except in an abstract legal sense!). Anyway, all I was saying is that as a general rule most legal systems accept that the property or rights owner gets to choose whether to give, sell or share, it's not for individuals to decide it's "okay" to take other people's stuff or rights. This is true whether we're talking about the right to live in your house or to put your trademark on stuff. Now as a practical matter of course people do just that all the time -- I don't dispute that. But that thing they do all the time is more or less still just stealing (or trespass or rights infringement or whatever, if you want to get technical). I think we basically agree -- obviously I don't think owning reps is anything to lose sleep over. There are a lot worse things self-defined regular people do -- I am probably not the only one with friends who do illegal drugs, cheat on taxes, drive when wasted, cheat on their wives and girlfriends, do all of the above on Saturday and go to church on Sunday, stuff most people agree on principle one probably shouldn't do . . . but it happens and I am happy to let it slide unless truly stupid and unnecessary risks are involved. However, while I would be really sorry if any of my friends got in legal trouble for any of the above, I can't claim it's would be a fundamental injustice if they did. And of course people can get into all kinds of philosophical arguments about how fighting Rolex in particular or the western industrialist hegemony in general or the unfair IP laws of The Man designed to protect all of the above is the right thing to do, but that's way too heavy for me. So, if you live in a country that is antagonistic to western laws and ideology and thus you feel completely justified in stealing all the IP you want, I'm not going to argue with you about it.

I agree with Pugwash -- let's at least steal with our eyes open. You don't like to be a thief, then don't steal. I'm not judging people for stealing, functionally everyone steals. But don't steal and then invent some convoluted explanation about how you're actually doing the victim a favor, then you're being intellectually dishonest to yourself on top of being legally dishonest as to another person. For luxury brands the market perception of the brand is a bulk of the company's value, so to say "fake Rolexes don't hurt the company because I wasn't going to buy a Rolex anyway" isn't really true. How much it harms Rolex is certainly debatable but as a practical matter they clearly want you to not do it and have the legal right to make you, which should be good enough. If a bum walks into your house and sleeps on your sofa and the police said "well, it's not like he can afford a house and you have plenty of space, this is really just about you not wanting him here and that's nothing," how would you feel? In any case it's pretty self-serving to injure someone and then say "oh, it's not that bad you big baby, in fact if you overlooked it it's like it never happened at all," which is basically all we're doing by saying Rolex is crying about nothing -- we're telling other people how they should feel about the wrongs we inflict. The brand promotion theory when it comes to actual counterfeiting is pretty weak -- you want to promote the brand, fine, wear a hat. Good men do bad things, and all bad things are not created equal. I don't think we have to feel TERRIBLE about buying reps any more than we have to feel TERRIBLE about doing lots of things that are probably not the right thing to do. But that doesn't mean you should try to turn it into a virtue. Only children think something becomes right because they do it.

These are all solid points and I don't doubt your experiences. It is worth noting though that veterans remember the day when they were pretty pleased just to get a watch most every time within a couple of months, so basic honesty was considered all that it took to make a dealer a true gentleman. Old habits die hard . . . and probably people with these expectations stress out less. It is also worth noting that legit multinational businesses operate on much the same model as EL. EVERYBODY is just interested in making the sale and moving on to the next victim, er, valued customer. Have you ever tried to reach customer service at Dell Computers or Bank of America when you have problems? I have . . . at least Eddie doesn't make you wait on the phone for an hour, transfer you six times and then suddenly cut out. I'm not defending EL, I'm just saying customer service is a lost art . . . or possibly an oxymoron at this point.

Oh, I imagine there are lots of things that go on here that ebay would not be anxious to endorse.

I would recommend singing or shouting at the top of your voice whenever you are required to hand your rep over to someone. Not only will you negate any sounds the rotor makes, your apparent mental instability will make it difficult for the other person to concentrate on detecting rotor noise.

Rep please!

Be happy to point you in the right direction as soon as you change your avatar :yucky:

I dunno . . . if I squint I can still see some non-diamond covered surfaces which I feel really detract from the bling factor of the watch. Also, when a particular dealer says a watch has "real diamonds" does he actually mean real diamonds or is that a codeword for mineral glass? I've kind of lost track of the marketing buzzwords lately.

Holbrook actually runs a Seamaster page and rated the SMP over the Sub. Still he likes his Rollies, I'm not going to pretend that's not true! But his reviews are a great service to the internet WIS community and he's written for all kinds of forums and magazines and owned about a zillion watches. So I respect his opinion and I don't think its fair to characterize him as a fanboy. If you read his "why I collect Rolex watches" FAQ -- I think he makes a fair case that he's an enthusiast, not a Rolex fanatic. And it's worth noting that he has said often that he thinks Omega is the best all-around luxury watch brand when you factor in value. Oh right, Ultimate PO bracelet. Really good, although frankly rep bracelets seem to all be getting good these days (except Rolex, because the gens aren't that great to begin with). Benefits from a little Cape Cod when you first get it. [censored] to size.

There are a couple of minor annoyances with my PO but the bracelet isn't one of them. It's a quality piece (although the clasp doesn't lock with as much authority as I'd like) and very comfortable, although the watch itself really is quite heavy and that may be an acquired taste. Still, if you can get an ETA one for around $180 shipped from the better value dealers, this is probably the best value/quality/accuracy rep you can get right now. Btw, an excellent comparative review of gens by one of the best writers on the subject, John Holbrook, Jr.: http://rolexreferencepage.com/SDPO/sd%20vs%20po.html

Exactly. I feel like this is the point that CJVCMC is missing. The issue is not whether $300 is a ridiculous price for a good rep, or what else is out there for the price. And OK, we get you have $308 to throw around, you're a big man. But I don't think any of us should be pleased to see a trend toward price fixing by the dealers. I'm not anti-Josh or anti-Andrew or anyone else. But I think it's perfectly clear that the dealers just want to get prices up and they're behind this push, it doesn't have that much to do with anything else despite all the misleading talk of "better steel" (I note a dealer commented in defending the price that unlike other reps, the SO is "really" made from 316L steel -- is that supposed to make us feel better, that they've been lying about that too?) Regardless of whether it's understandable for them to get all they can, I'm not really sure why it's unreasonable for us to voice our displeasure at collusory markups. It's not a good thing.

I do have to wonder where this is all headed when dealers rather boldly pronounce that prices will not go down on a particular watch because they have fixed them, as if that's something we should applaud. Admittedly it isn't like Chinese law is exactly state of the art when it comes to issues like antitrust or unfair competition so the dealers probably aren't even thinking that what they're doing is anything other than smart business (note, I realize no such law would apply to dealers on this board, I'm just saying even raising the concept to them may not make sense, and yes the same can be said of Chinese IP protection which is why we have all these watches but hey I'm a hypocrite so I'll ignore that). Still, it sucks. I'm actually starting to miss Paul's half-assed attempts to undercut the other dealers.

I don't know what you guys are talking about, the problem with this watch is that it doesn't have enough fake diamonds. Once they stud the band and the dial with more fake ice and throw in a pair of CZ-encrusted boxer shorts with every purchase, I'm there. I'd say more but my keyboard is encrusted with fake diamonds, so I'm bleeding all over the place typing this.

I don't know about the better and more steel and thicker crystal stuff -- just sounds like more marketing spin. Supposedly all of the quality reps are made from the same 316L steel as a majority of the SS gens, so is what the "better steel" that's in the SO? What are they saying, that the 316L steel that the other watches are supposedly made from is actually Chinese seagull 316L "steele"? Sapphire crystals cost about 70 cents each to make -- synthetic sapphire is not a precious commodity. So it's a couple mm thicker, so what? There is probably nothing inherent in the manufacturing process that justifies a $100 per unit premium over the ultimate PO and I suspect the sellers know that. The supply and demand thing makes a lot more sense to me. On the other hand, if (IF) the movement is gen ETA and if (IF) Trusty and Andrew are really guaranteeing this watch is a legit diving tool watch as they certainly appear to be doing, $308 seems far from outrageous to me.

I've been looking at two of the Titanium Oris divers, the Regulateur and the Carlos Coste special. I'm not sure what they cost in the US but in Japan they're around $800 for the Reg and $1200 for the Coste, very good deals I think for gen Titanium tool watches with 1000/2000m water resistance and rubber strap and Ti bracelet included in the package.

Date font looks worse as well, the generic Asia 7750 copy date font instead of the improved one.

This is a great rep. People don't give it a lot of love because it's not 42mm+, complicated or a Sub, but a quality Explorer I rep like this one is an excellent all-around dress/business casual watch and one of the most cosmetically accurate reps you can buy at any price. I got a TW Explorer I from River a year or so ago and it is my favorite rep for work.

Try asking docblackrock The oem bezel cannot be swapped out, and the bezel insert can't be removed either.

I'm pretty sure the ones EL and River are selling as "ultimate PO's" are the same as Trusty's. Got mine from EL who assured me it was (the one reviewed by By-Tor) and sure looks good to me, internal threaded crown, good AR, best pearl, best bracelet, everything. River uses identical pics as EL and they usually have the same stuff, so I believe him when he says he has the same watch. Bought the PO as part of a package deal, and it cost less than $179 shipped for the ETA. Anyway, I think we both prove the point that until the price drops or Trusty finally starts offering free shipping, a $154 ETA copy PO is kind of on the borderline in terms of being worth it.

First off, I'm pretty sure it's just a myth that there's any significant difference between the latest ultimate 45mm PO sold by our various trusted dealers. Second, considering there are reliable dealers on the board who will sell you the regular ETA Ultimate PO for $179 or less with shipping included, I personally wouldn't go with the ETA copy just to save $25. On the other hand, if River starts selling it for $119 plus free shipping it would be hard to turn that down. The PO is a damn nice rep, I could use an orange bezel one too!

Keeping the crown unscrewed except when I wear the watch is a good idea, hopefully I can remember to do it on a regular basis. I have a two-watch winder but I keep my gens on it, and I'm not really inclined to buy winders for all my watches or anything like that -- that would cost a small fortune, one that I'd rather spend on new reps! The stripped crown tubes haven't been really that big of a deal -- 2 Rolex reps (YM, Sub, both from abay) and the Black Seal. I got new crown tubes for the first two, and The Zigmeister modded the 183 so I can wear it now. I am already a little worried about the threading on the Inge, which seems to be pretty short . . . I should keep that one on the winder.

No problems for me, but then it's only been two weeks. Besides I figure anybody who rotates a lot of watches at any given time (which is a lot of people on this board) don't put a lot of wear and tear on the movements of their watches . . . the bigger wear and tear problem I've found is to the screw-down crowns because I don't wear my watches enough to keep them running, and many of the reps have crown tubes that will inevitably strip over time.

I think if you are a WIS, the true must have (or holy grail) is a watch with the El Primero movement. Also, I'm not sure any rep is a "must have" in a WIS's collection, although certainly many WIS's own and enjoy reps. To me, gens and reps are like cars and motorcycles. Someone who is into one is often into the other, but there's no requirement that it be so.

I agree it would be nice to see and new and improved (or rather, the old one improved) CA and Seawolf. I exchanged emails with a dealer who said that he had originally been told that these would be back in production by Christmas, but that didn't happen because his supplier was frankly disappointed with sales of recent Breitling reps. He said it was still possible, and likely, that they would go into production sometime in the spring but it wasn't a priority. I would guess this is related to why there seems to be no enthusiasm about getting the Steelfish into production. This is disappointing for sure. I waited on buying a PO for months because I wanted both the Steelfish and CA more, but after hearing this I got the Ultimate 45mm PO last week.