kanerich

This stuff has been argued to death, and it seems to me a fairly pointless exercise to take the high ground based on rationality when it comes to arguing about stuff people want but really don't need which is ultimately all this is, subjective preferences. Nobody needs gen luxury watches or even rep luxury watches, quartz or mechanical. Fine, quartz makes "more sense." Do you also want to take on everyone about eating steak instead of soy, drinking cognac instead of malt liquor, driving something other than a used Honda Civic, whatever? Smoking, drinking, the utility of religion, etc.? There aren't high quality quartz reps because the rep makers don't feel like there's a market for it to make it worth the trouble. There's not a lot more to it. You're frustrated there aren't enough people who feel the same way as you do to create a viable market for something you want, that's understandable but that's all that it is, there's no right or wrong attached to it.

I'm not surprised. I've got the Inge chrono and it's a great, certain in my top 3 or so in terms of quality and accuracy. To me 42mm is also a "just-right" size. Wear it well, just remember to store it upside down now and then so the oil can circulate.

And people feel the need to try to fool these people with their reps?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I caused the crackdown when I walked into the local FBI office mistaking its fancy logo for a Breitling AD. I then handed over my Steelfish and bragged how good reps are getting these days, he complimented me (he even called over another agent to look at it) and asked where I got it, and I gave him this site's information.

Great, I sent the FBI an email asking as long as they were taking over, if they knew who had the best fake Sub . . .

It might have the famous "light AR" but Ken always states it when his watches have AR -- and there's no way he'd forget to note such a desirable feature on 7750 Pam when the AR would probably be the difference between a bunch of sales. But hey, hope springs eternal.

By it is just he probably means "it is just as it says on the website" or something . . . his descriptions are pretty good, much better than the generic ones our dealers tend to use. The specs say the case is SS and titanium, CG and crown are titanium . . . says nothing about AR or updated date mag, which means it doesn't have either. He will throw in an extra strap and buckle if that's a deal maker for any of you.

I hear Josh is selling Submariners at $35/meter to keep up with the "competition" . . .

I'd basically like to see some kind of warning system instead of an outright ban. The fact is, as a practical matter I doubt the administrators of this board would ban the dealers at issue unless the other major boards do the same, and I can't blame them. Without them, the easy purchase sites that appeal to newbies just aren't here. Without that, newbies will go to TRC or RWI. Without new members, this board will eventually go under since it won't be worth the effort to maintain. So while it's appealing to say "they need us, we don't need them" we need to ask, just who do people think are "we" and "they" anyway . . .

Good for you. I'm sure you lead a life free of stress since you clearly don't sweat little irritations. but surely you have to see that logically speaking, it makes at least as much sense to want to get X when you're told you're getting X as to be satisfied with getting whatever. You're happy to pay $270 for a watch with a $10 movement from a dealer who may or may not give you what he says he's giving you, that is totally your call. The thing is, basically the entire decision to buy reps, gens whatever is an individual call. But that doesn't change the basic rules of life, which is that you cannot deliver ANYTHING when you say you will deliver a particular thing and then claim to be trusty and reliable, and "hey, it's not easy to make money selling reps" is clearly a pretty self-serving excuse. I don't think anybody is saying that there are not people out there who aren't happy to get watches with junk movements if they look okay, what people are saying is that dealers who don't deliver what they say they will, and charge for spec that doesn't exist, are not to be trusted if you care about getting what you pay for. You don't care about getting what you pay for, that's fine but that basically places you outside the discussion.

I gotta admit, I'm not impressed by Andrew's response. Look, pimpin' aint easy. I get it. But that's why I don't pimp, because I can't deliver the ho's people want when they want it and eventually I'll be out of business with busted kneecaps. I don't know why because you've built up sales volume you're immune to the basic rules of business. If you can't deliver the goods you promise, I don't care if you sell ho's, reps, accounting services, gum . . . it doesn't matter, you're not "trusty." Let me get this straight, people are accusing you of selling shoddy merchandise for more than it's worth and your response is "hey, you wanted that watch, reppin' ain't easy." So if the market demanded a dual core notebook computer for $800, that would make it somehow not dishonest to pop a 486 in an old Thinkpad, call it a dual core and sell it for $800? Pretending to give the people what they want is the same as actually giving them what they want? While that's a nice bit of postmodern satirical reasoning it doesn't make a damn bit of sense business-wise, unless you've checked your ethics in at the door. You can cry a river (speaking of which, I miss River) about how it's not easy. But it's not easy to make the money to buy reps either, and yet we figure out ways to make it green, so dealers should figure out ways to make their watches what they say they are. Otherwise, there's no getting around the fact that they are not delivering what they say they will, and when a dealer intentionally doesn't deliver what he says he will so he can keep the money flowing in, I don't know why what the hell it means to tell the customers to "understand" that. Understand that they're being screwed so he can keep things going, how self-serving is that?? Yes, this is a illegal business, but you still have to deliver what you say you will to keep your customers. In any case, when the dealers start defending their actions by SAYING "hey, there's no honor among thieves," it might be time to find a new hobby.

Eddie delivered a bracelet that was omitted in a prior order to me last week, after I whined about it for about two months. Yeah, that's not a rave review or anything, but people who aren't trying anymore don't do stuff like that. So I think he's still in business and still cares. I'm sympathetic to you guys, but I think he'll deliver.

It's annoying when members post bone stock watches for sale for list or slightly above, but frankly there is a simple way to deal with that, which is to not buy from them. Anybody who has spent a week on this board can figure out they should check out Wo-Mart, Trusty and Perfect Clones to get an idea of prevailing prices. Anybody who hasn't spent a week on the board probably shouldn't be buying from individual members . . . I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but I would never have bought from another member in my formative months, and in general I'm still inclined not to except from members I know have been trading for the past couple of years. There have been members (some of them still here!) who talk a lot about their collection of gens and how they are the ivy-league educated scions of rich families and then deliver junk when they deliver at all . . . Every now and then an MBW, heavily modded Pam or whatnot does pop up, and usually from the most respected members. $500 or not I'd jump all over those if I were in the same country as they. I don't mind paying a premium for nice pieces. It's the guys I've never heard of who ask $350 for their Tag Link Chronos I don't really connect with. I'm not saying they can't get it. I'm just saying not from me. As far as shady mods go . . . I don't pay for mods other than the ones I know are worth it -- The Zigmeister lume and service, cannon pin, Palp crown, Jimmyfu CG. What other people think is worth their money is their call.

I think probably Ubi isn't saying there is no difference between having a rep peeking out from under a sleeve and strolling through an AD, and actually putting it in his hands and lecturing him about how undetectable reps are getting these days. I'm not saying that's what the original poster did but we all know some of our members can't seem to control their tendency to go tell it on the mountain, even if it means going on TimeZone and posting dealer pictures. Even if your showing off doesn't get you into personal trouble it's a pretty capital example of biting the hand that feeds you . . . this website and its cousins aren't exactly hard to find, why go the extra mile to increase the number of people who are interested in having it shut down? If I were an AD why wouldn't I smile at you, say "that's a very nice rep, where did you get it?" and then scream at the watch companies who take my money to do something, anything, to make the MF's at least a little less bold?

Brilliant review, really breaks down the pros and cons of the watch. I think that it is also really nice that you make the comparison to the Link, makes it really easy to get a handle on where you think the BCE falls in terms of accuracy.

By-tor is old school. What he considers the rules of the road, proper etiquette etc. for rep owners is not necessarily what everybody on this board thinks, I think he'd be the first to admit that. But a lot of members are old school and generally agree with his opinions, including me. Yeah, maybe fooling AD's with your reps does make for a funny story. But I think "yeah, this might stir up needless confrontation and irritate other people, but it should make for an interesting anecdote" should probably not be the deciding basis for making your affirmative decisions in life.

I think that's a terrible idea! No, wait I don't. I think it's a great idea! Sorry, just a bad joke. But seriously, I agree that people should try owning the watch for a few days (preferably longer) before posting a review of the dealer. However, I tend to think EL, TTK, Josh, Andrew etc. have pretty much established their good and bad points where individual glowing or scathing reviews, hasty or otherwise, probably isn't going to change the status quo much for them. What is more annoying to me is the newbie "I haven't got my watch yet and I've been waiting four whole days, this dealer is a liar and a cheat and you all are in on the scam!!" rant posts. Keep it between you and the dealer a month before you start calling people out, is what I say . . .

18 reps at the moment, but I've sold or given away probably about the same number (my standard gift to friends and family these days, I have yet to meet anyone who wasn't thrilled) and wore out a few more. I've also got four gens and about a half-dozen cheaper watches -- G-shocks, Seiko Monsters and the like.

Homage v. rep. v. gen debate aside, RXW is hard to defend as a company . . . it's based here in Japan and although it does make some interesting homage watches (I really liked that Plasmir Milograph or whatever it was called) it also makes some watches that really are more straight-up knockoffs than anything else. The company name used to be "Rockx" and its lineup mostly Rolex sport watch lookalikes -- put two and two together. I still think the company is kind of shady, the occasional decent homage aside. That having been said, I still don't see the argument that because homage watches violate the spirit but not the letter of the law, they are the same as reps. Unless you're some kind of moral absolutist, there IS a big difference between violating the spirit and the letter of the law. However, if you're a moral absolutist, you probably shouldn't be buying fake watches. So I'm not seeing any kind of compelling argument there. Besides, what is the point of getting indignant about what people on TZ think? Here's a little secret -- THEY DON'T LIKE REPS OVER THERE! Yes, of course most of the TZ members think gens are morally and mechanically superior to reps! It's a frigging forum designed for people who think that and have put their money where their mouth is, why get upset about it? It's like complaining that a Boston Red Sox fan forum is always insulting the New York Yankees or something. Yeah . . . so??

One thing you have to understand about buying reps is that there is no guarantee of out of the box quality control. While this is true of gens as well, it is much, much more likely to be a problem with reps. Dealers drop ship watches to you sight unseen and they are assembled by people who make about a dollar a day (I'm exaggerating but you get the point), so mistakes like poorly seated crystals, missing gaskets, half-screwed in casebacks inevitably occur. Therefore, no dealer (Paul, Andrew, Josh, ANYONE) can really "guarantee" a watch is water-resistant except to the extent that if it leaks, they will (probably) replace the watch. One member of this board disassembled his "guaranteed 1000m water resistant" SuperOcean Steelfish rep and found the crystal simply pressed into the case, with no sealing agent! Guaranteed 1000m, my ass. As far as your Sub goes, the design is not inherently leaky but based on my own experience with a Sub and a YM from Paul, I wouldn't bet on a lot of water-resistance. The crystal is simply pressed into a plastic retaining ring and held in place by the bezel insert, which in turn uses a pretty cheap glue. Even if the watch seems initially water-resistant, if the bezel insert falls off (and this has happened to a lot of people), goodbye crystal, then goodbye movement. If you seal the crystal to the case with some silicone or something, securely glue in the bezel insert and make sure the crown and caseback are watertight, you're probably in good shape -- but out of the box? Unless you like arguing with Paul over returns, I wouldn't swim with it.

What he said. Damn, now I wish I had got AR for my Inge . . .

I think we probably aren't that far off in terms of how we feel -- I mean, I think reps are great and they scratch an itch I have for watches without breaking the bank, but I like watches, not reps, so I'm not going to write off the worth or charm of an homage or gen just because I have some misplaced loyalty toward reps only. Your post underscores how a LOT of members justify buying reps by saying "I buy reps because I like the great design of gens but feel like they're ripoffs, absolutely not because I'm a brand [censored]" but then when someone points out homage watches provide what a lot of members of this board claim they want, which is legitimately replicate the look and function of a more expensive watch for WIS's without unlimited budgets while providing things like some QC and a warranty, etc, the same people often sneer "what kind of dumbass would get some lame knockoff," indicating really it is mostly about pretending that the watch is something it's not, and not about what the watch has to offer. Which I can accept as a motive (99.9% of us are guilty of it to some extent), except some of the same people then turn around and throw people on TZ, PMWF, and really mainstream WIS's in general under the bus for respecting homages but being contemptible of reps. That's disingenuous to me, although I have admit no more disingenuous than WIS's who sniff "I don't understand why anybody buys reps." That's just stupid. You may not do it, but to say you are incapable of understanding the thinking behind it is to announce you have a truly limited capacity to understand human behavior. Yeah, I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth . . . it's what I do.

My wrist is a little under 7" and I have to admit that the 45mm PO feels too big. It's not so much the width as the length . . . the PO wears noticeably bigger than 44mm Pams because it's 50mm+ easy north-south. I do love the way the Ultimate PO looks and think it's worth owning anyway given the price/quality ratio, and I rather like my 187 which makes the PO look like a Submariner so it probably is all just a matter of mood.

All I know is, if Chad orders a Ferrari watch from Eddie Lee I don't want to hear about it. Fool me once, shame on you and all that.

Well if homages are basically reps, and we like reps, we should like homages right? But I have to admit, I'm not really sure I would buy homages of watches long out of production. That seems to be the one surefire instance you CAN justify buying a rep and admitting your watch is a rep -- if the gen is 70 years old, there's like 14 of them and cost umpteen thousand dollars. It's like with replica cars -- you'd feel like a bit of a tool to be driving a replica 2007 Mercedes, but I don't think anybody would give you a hard time for driving a replica 1937 Mercedes if you said "I love the look but the gen is ludicrously expensive and extremely difficult to drive and maintain."