trailboss

I sent Mary a rather long and detailed email which among other things asked for answers to a few questions. Untill she has had her right of reply I have no intention of posting a review. For now let's just say that the deal was perfect in all aspects except for a issue with a crown and a question as too how this came about. Nothing that can't be forgiven in a brand new dealer but not the sort of thing you want to happen too often. She just has a lot to learn about what we expect here. A normal process for a new dealer but I want to hear back from her before I post. Vetting dealers is a big responsibility in my book. If, sooner or later ypu'r going to say to folk "I think you can trust this one" you gotta be shure they know what is expected of them and will do it. So don't panic, review will come. Col.

Unfortunatly whith most of us having less to spend it doesn't equate into more watches, : :-( : I don't think the cheapies are geting beter per sae rather what used to be the midrange has now droped in price to the level of the cr*p we wouldn't buy. No doubt the cr*p thats shipped to Africa (the largest single part of the trade) is even cheaper now as well. Col.

Could be German, doesn't look Dutch. You could die under those. Col.

Yes it's Italian. Funny coincedence then Luither 'cause It did arrive at home and I was out. Mary emaild me and told me so about twenty min later. Hows that for service guys? Anyone ever had a dealer bother to tell them their rep arrived while they were out? Col.

Niiiiice! Col.

They have. Look at Johns 139 buck SOSF. Or his bargin GMTIIc. The're even cheaper now. And it'l get beter. Col.

It's da bin dude. At least we stay in here. We don't mess up the whole place, just our little corner. We could come out . . . Col.

I think you're correct my piescene friend. Prices are gunna have to come down. The problem is will there be enough incentive to develop new models? Col.

You know, I went to a lot of trouble to segeway Oscars post into a disscusion on the state of the rep industry and so far no comment. Quit with the goats, can we talk watches now and then? Col.

Luthier, how the h*ll do you know the details of my order before I do???? Frankly mate, my dealings with Mary are my concern not yours. It is up to me to keep the guys informed about what I get when I get it ect SHOULD I WANT TO. It's frankly none of your concern. Dealings between me and Mary should be my biz until I decide otherwise. I know you

Doc, it doesn't matter if he is right or wrong, it's not a proper study. As Greg states, he provides no references, cites no proper studies, it has not been subject to peer review and its lacks most of the requirements for a scientific/medical paper. It is, in fact a magazine article and must be taken as such. It is not proof of theory! As such I can not except it as a finding but take it on board as an informed opinion. Maybe pap was a bit harsh but hard fact it is not. I can see both sides of this argument and think it comes down to the fact that even in countries where it is ingrained in law there is a lack of separation of powers here. Marriage as an institution was stolen from the church and, in the absence of any civil arrangement at the time (and of cause a total lack of the above mentioned powers) adopted as the legal form of union. This should have been fixed when the concept of separation of church and state came into being but somehow got missed. I have big issues with organised religion (and the Vatican in particular) but I can see their point on this one. Unfortunately what they are trying to protect as a church rite is also the lawfully recognised form of union. Herein lyes the problem, to quote Black Adder. And why should Christianity and a few other "select" religions have the monopoly? There are many religions in AU whose marriage ceremony is only recognised if the necessary bits are added and the Priest or other presiding officer is also a civil celebrant. No, there needs to be a separation of "marriage" and "civil union" this could be easily taken care of with a short preceding before the register is signed the way many other less popular belief systems have to do things now. All it would take is this cutting of direct links between lawful union and marriage and a change of nomenclature for the process of lawful union from "marriage" to something else. Let the church take back the concept of marriage to use as they see fit and give an legal alternative. It all comes down to semantics. Regards, Col.

OMG AD. I can't belive a man of your standing put that up as a serious paper! Greg is totaly correct in what he says. Utterly useless piece of magazine pap. Sorry mate but I expect beter from you. Col.

Are we back on goats again?

Oke, I belive you for now. How ever other tracking I have had has started at GZ. I will ask her my self after it arrives. Col.

Oh I forgot to add thanks to the CN watch industry Wiki for the info. BTW, with the gold ones of cause there's one difference. Theirs are solid not plate. The SS ones appear identical tho. Col.

Oh I just can't wait untill someone reps a seagull tourby or minute repeater useing their own MVT! Those are very close to several of the Millionsmart watches and I suspect they were indeed cased by them. I would think that if these(dbl tourbys) are on the MS site you should be able to get one thru Homer for a grand or so, maybe less. That site is like the BestSwiss of gen CN watches. Quality's good, prices suck. Iv'e seen retailers geting two or even two and a half grand for the MS flying tourby depending on model so three to seven is achiveable. Where else can joe average get a real working tourby for under thirty grand or so? Our's just come cheap and if you have ever held a propper flying tourby in your hand you know what I meen. Nothing wrong with the Seagull MVTs either. They make a lot of the best A7750s as well as the venerable ST19 that powers the manual speedmasters. They were one of the first to market with a ETA clone and make one of the best. Here's a short history of Seagull. History of Tianjin Sea-Gull Watch Factory In January 1955, on the basis of a Chinese government order to establish a watch industry in the north of the country, four men in a small workshop with limited tools set out to build China's first wristwatch. Starting with a Swiss Sindaco 5 jewel pin-lever design, they successfully completed the prototype on 24 March. This first watch was called WuXing (5 Stars). This low-grade watch went into very limited production, each unit virtually hand-made. From this humble beginning began what is now one of the world's biggest mechanical watch enterprises. Preparations began in 1957 for the establishment of the Tianjin WuYi Watch Factory, which was completed the following year. An all-new 17 jewel watch entered production, with the brand name WuYi (5-1 i.e. May Day). These watches were based on Swiss designs and were of good quality. Today they are much sought-after by collectors. Later calibre ST-2A WuYi watches featured some detail enhancements including shockproofing and extra jewels. In 1962 the factory moved to a new site and was renamed Tianjin Watch Factory. In 1961 the Ministry for Light Industry received the order to develop a new 'aviator's watch' for the People's Liberation Army Air Force. This was designated Project 304. Around this time a seconds-only chronograph version of the ST-2A was prototyped, but it did not enter production. The Venus Watch Company, Switzerland, were wanting to offload the calibre 175 chronograph tooling to raise capital for development of their calibre 188. The USSR were not interested, but the Chinese were. The 175 was purchased for Project 304. By October 1965, the third test batch were completed and submitted to the Ministry and Air Force for approval, which was passed in December. By May the following year, 1400 chronograph watches had been delivered to pilots of the PLAAF. Meanwhile also in 1966, the factory successfully developed the first 100% Chinese designed and built wristwatch, the Dong Feng (East Wind). The calibre ST5 was modern, thin, accurate and of high quality. It had 19 jewels, including jewels for the mainspring barrel. A somewhat bulky automatic version was later developed but was produced in only limited numbers. The ST5 met the National First Grade standard, which may have been a factor in the Tianjin factory being granted an exemption from production of the Chinese Standard (Tongji) watch. In line with national industry standards, the ST5 was upgraded to a 21600bph escapement and designated ST5-K. The ST5 movement is prized by collectors for its distinctive 'Sea-Gull Stripes' decoration comprising graceful radiating arcs engraved deeply on the plates. Due to the hand-finishing, no two are exactly alike. In the early 1970s, the factory successfully developed an electronic tuning-fork watch based on the Bulova Accutron. Apart for proving that they could do it, there seems no good reason for this effort. By this stage, quartz was looking like the future for watches, and the Tianjin tuning-fork never entered production. Approval for export of the ST5 watch was granted in 1973. The name East Wind was probably recognized as too political for the international market, so the caseback logo of a windswept sea had a flying sea gull added to it, and the dial was signed SEA-GULL. This was the first exported Chinese watch. In 1975, the woman's watch ST6 was developed. The smaller size meant it was neither as accurate or robust as the ST5, however it was still a good watch with a good reputation. It was China's first export-quality woman's watch. Due to a simplified construction, the ST6 was significantly cheaper to make than the ST5. Building upon these two successes, ST5 and ST6 movements were sold to Mechanica Fina in Romania for the manufacture of Orex watches. Also in the 1970s, Tianjin Watch Factory developed a watch of a higher grade than the ST5. This was the Sea-Gull ST7 day/date automatic. The movement design showed some ETA/Eterna inspiration, and the micrometer regulator suggests the kind of accuracy that was expected of it. Unfortunately at this time 'Red China' was a closed country to the rest of the world, and nothing was known of their watch industry. It now seems unreasonable that a foreign watch buyer might have chosen a Sea-Gull over the nearest equivalent from Tissot or Titoni. On the other hand, how many ordinary people in China could have afforded such a watch? The ST7 was an excellent watch without a market. Sea-Gull watches were sold in parts of Asia, and in 1977-78 some were sold in Britain. However, unlike the Soviet Union, the Chinese watch industry lacked a coordinated approach to exports, and Sea-Gull did not become a household name outside of China. By the early 1980s, the mechanical watch market was declining, quartz digital watches, especially mulit-function models, were reaching the peak of popularity, and a new demand for very thin quartz analogue watches was emerging. At the same time, economic policy in China was changing, leading towards more international trade, both import and export. This was a tough time for the Chinese watch industry. Simple hand-winding watches still had their uses (for example China's first South Pole expedition in 1985 was equipped with Sea-Gull ST5 watches) but on the general market they were simply not competitive. Tianjin Watch Factory met the challenges of the 1980s by developing the quartz calibres ST9 and ST11, which were reliable and successful at least on the domestic market. Their other response to quartz competition was slightly controversial, although by no means unique in the Chinese watch industry. Mechanical watches were still competitive against quartz on some markets so long as they were self-winding and not too expensive e.g. Seiko 5. The calibre ST6D was based on the woman's watch calibre ST6, but with an oversized dial plate supporting a calendar mechanism big enough for a man-sized watch. An auto-winding module was installed with a large diameter rotor. The result was low-cost and of reasonable quality, albeit somewhat fragile. In spite of the factory being given self-management of their export program in 1988, Sea-Gull watches remained obscure on most markets. However the factory realized that there was a ready market for cheap automatic movement for foreign watch assemblers, particularly in Hong Kong. As the 'quartz revolution' peaked, the 'mechanical rennaissance' began, with mechanical watches slowly gaining popularity in the developed world, this time not in the mainstream, but as a niche market. This was fertile ground for the makers of counterfeits of famous brands like Rolex and Omega. Sadly a large proportion of ST6D movements have found their way into fakes over the years. In 1990 the Tianjin Watch Factory was promoted to a national level enterprise, and in 1992, the Tianjin Sea-Gull Corporation was set up. In that year the decision was made to cease production of mechanical watches in favour of quartz watches. However just five years later the decision was reversed and the company committed to only make mechanical movements! The current success of the company is testament to the wisdom of this decision. In 2000 the Sea-Gull Group was floated on the stock market. In 2001 watchmaking enterprises were acquired in Dalian and Yantai, and in Shijiazhuang in 2003. A Sea-Gull branch was established in Hong Kong that year to manage the export market. Movement manfacturing remains in Tianjin. As successful as the ST6D has been, it was something of a stop-gap, so a new all-purpose base calibre was developed in 1997. The calibre ST16 drew extensively upon the design of the popular Japanese Miyota 8200 series, but incorporating a high-efficiency auto-winding system inspired by Seiko. This provided Sea-Gull with a modern, simple and efficient full-sized wristwatch calibre that served as the basis of a myriad of complicated variants. The revised ST17 allowed even further diversity. The ST16 and ST17 have proved very popular, but demand remains strong for the ST6D which remains as Sea-Gull's base model, and is also now available with many complications. By 2005, Sea-Gull were making more than 25% of all the world's mechanical movements. As the Chinese watch industry has become crowded with auto-winding watches featuring simple calendar and dual-time complications, Sea-Gull sought to stay ahead of the competition by entering the elite world of mechanical chronograph manufacturers. In 2003 the Project 304 chronograph was resurrected, updated and given the designation ST19. This movement has been extremely successful, both in watches by third party manufacturers, and Sea-Gull branded watches. A series of watches commemorating the original Aviator's Watch was released in 2005 and sold quickly. Several reissues have also sold fast. Around the same time, Sea-Gull also developed their first tourbillon movement, the ST80. This has also earned a good reputation in Sea-Gull watches and external brands. As other tourbillon manufacturers struggled to keep up, Sea-Gull released their Double Tourbillon in 2006, featuring one ST80 escapement and another common axis tourbillon from their new calibre ST82, geared together. It is available in an intricate skeleton version, as is also the ST80 and ST19. Sea-Gull have also introduced a quarter-repeater for production ,and presented a minute repeater prototype at the Basel watch fair. A perpetual calendar watch is in development. Not forgetting the mass-market, Sea-Gull have also recently introduced a wristwatch alarm movement, and a pocket watch movement. Responding to the shortage of ETA-type automatics, Sea-Gull are now offering their own version of the ETA 2824 and 2892, in direct competition with Swiss company Sellita. Continuing their push into Swiss territory, Sea-Gull are also supplying ST16 ebauches to Swiss movement finisher Claro Semag. While Sea-Gull's mass-market offerings turn a solid profit, their tourbillons and chronographs have promoted the Sea-Gull brand to a level of recognition never previously achieved. Indirectly, the success of Sea-Gull has also helped improve the image of 'Made in China' products. Among watch enthusiasts 'Sea-Gull' has become synonymous with good quality Chinese watchmaking. As of September 2008, Sea-Gull has taken an interesting new move towards internationalisation as it is entering the European market via an agent. A European Sea-Gull website has been established to promote and sell a selection of primarily high-end Sea-Gull products. The website has a much more European 'feel' and profile (than Chinese). If successfull, in establishing a network of authorised dealers around Europe and penetrating the market, it is certainly going to be very interesting to see how the European watchmaking industry will respond to this new competitor on their home turf. However, higher brand recognition and success for Sea-Gull in Europe, might also help strengthen the Sea-Gull brand in China, which is currently the single most attractive watch market in the world. Current calibers: ST6 – 3 sub-families: * Woman-size automatic, hand-wind or hand-wind skeleton * Man-size automatic, with various calendar and 24-hour/day-night display options * Hand-wind, rectangular form-movement with open heart ST16 – Miyota-style simplified construction with Seiko-style auto-winding. Many calendar and 24-hour display options available. ST17 – Upgraded ST16 with even more options including jump-hour, big date and power-reserve. Skeleton versions, both automatic and hand-winding. ST18 – Premium ETA/Eterna-style movement; fast-beat, automatic, day/date. Possibly superseded by ST24? ST19 – Hand-winding chronograph developed from Venus 175. Available as skeleton or with power-reserve. ST22 – A pair of small ST6 automatics on a common dial plate. Open-heart and big-date options. ST24 – Clone of ETA 2428-2 ST25 – Premium movement with double-bridged balance for open-heart. Various calendar options. ST26 – Clone of ETA 2892 ST28 – AS1475-style hand-winding alarm. ST36 – Unitas-style 36mm pocket-watch movement, hand-winding with subsidiary seconds. Skeleton version with unusual bar-type bridges. ST80 – Blancpain-style flying caroussel-tourbillon. Various calendar and power-reserve options. Hand-winding or automatic. Skeleton version is hand-wind only, no options. ST82 – Tourbillon with large-diameter balance on common axis with carriage. Hand-winding or automatic. 'Flying' or bridged tourbillon. ST8080 – Hand-winding dual tourbillon; caroussel and common axis. ST9000 – Hand-winding quarter-repeater. Minute-repeater not yet in production. Calibre unknown – Perpetual calendar, not yet in production. Hope you find all that informative, Col. EDIT: I've had a close look and I reckon there exactly the same watches you can buy unbranded from Homer for five to eight hundred bucks. If there not on his site I'v seem em on the MS site and the're all priced around the same. I'd allmost lay money on it.

I use mine as mobile grease rags all the time. The're handy if the dog aint arround! Col.

Actualy my son, you do not find the right Twingo, the right Twingo finds you.

Nice! Isn't it funny how all these cheapies are comimg out? Even the middle tier dealers are listing more of them. Face it you can get a GMTIIc for under a hundred bills US, a fair way under if you try hard. I wonder how many high end reps are being sold ATM? Not many at a guess. I think we are in for a round of price cuts hopefully starting before xmas. The problem with that is less incentive to build our high end goodies. A prolonged recession on a world scale could spell the end for most if not all high end reps. Of cause margines can be brought back a fair way and everyone will still make a profit but it leaves little incentive for dealers to hold stock of expensive watches when the cheaper stuff is flying out the door or for factories to invest in design and tooling for a new model. This will even trickle down into the cheap stuff. It's possible we may not see too many new watches for a while. It all depends on consumer (us) spending and hobbies are one of the first things to suffer when the belt needs to be pulled in a couple of notches. As Klink would say, Time will tell. Col.

BTW, nice Hammy! Under 300 bills? Where from if I may ask? The Sub's a beauty as well. What ever you think of Fakey he puts a lot of effort into those Subs. Read the reviews, the'r a work of art for a pitence. I want the GMT. So many watches............................ Col.

YOUR THREAD??? Oh, , , yeah, , , 'cause. Umm, thats great man. We're all like, happy for you. And stuff. Now, where were we? Ahh YES! Wipped cream and arses! Continue! Col.

The scene: The loony bin over at RWG2/ The room is quiet for the time of night. JohnG is over at the work bench carefully removing the Cyclops from a GMTIIc, Oscar is siting in a cosy chair reading a magazine on , , , umm, you don

A hard way to put it but Bills right. Ther are folk who will not see this happen and not die trying to "terminate his command". Sad, but I can only imagine the outrage in certain parts of the South ATM. I feel for his family. They have no idea what the're in for. Every First Family does it tough at first, it's a pain having your every movement watched and not having the freedom to do what you want but the Obamahs are going to have it worst than most. With THIS President they have to worry about domestic nutters as much as the imported kind. Come to think of it, I even pity the Secret Service this time round. Col.

Not a bad time line. 008-11-03 14:46:00 HONGQIAO Posting 　 2008-11-03 16:57:00 336 Despatch from Sorting Center 　 2008-11-04 00:15:45 SHANGHAI Arrival at Sorting Center 　 2008-11-04 00:30:21 SHANGHAI Despatch from Sorting Center 　 2008-11-06 08:29:00 COMMENWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA SYDNEY EMS Arrival at Sorting Center 　 2008-11-06 08:29:00 COMMENWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA SYDNEY EMS Handed over to Customs 　 2008-11-06 09:25:00 COMMENWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA SYDNEY EMS Released from Customs 　 I must say however, if the watch shiped from Hongiao (industrial area rround Shanghai airport) I'm not shure how it passed thru her hands 400 odd miles away. She told me every watch she sends is QCd in their office in GZ and chked by herself. This one wasn't so I hope its what was ordered and OK. I will ask for an answer via email and add the reply to the review when the watch arrives. Col.

Yep, now I look it's up here too. Col.