sneed12

is it 100% sure info that DG4813 will NOT work with gen hands and dial? I feel like ordering a gen dial/hand/bezel combo from ofrei...

What about date wheel then - are eta dw's interchangeable with DG movements?

And if not - can I just throw a 2824 or 2836 in easily as they see to be cheap enough to do it like this and not wait for another whole watch with eta only to throw half of it away anyway?

I know you sold yours already, but others will probably want to know the answers to these questions

Gen dial will physically fit on a DG4813. However, dial feet would be in the wrong place. It seems like a crime to clip the feet of a gen dial. Hands will definitely NOT fit. Datewheel will not fit. You can throw a 2824 in no problem, I think with this particular case the 2836 might be too far off on the stem height but no way to know without trying. You probably need a new movement holder anyway.

As for buying a parts watch, you could probably sell the parts and cover enough of the cost to make it worthwhile.

Date looks like it rides high in the window...

PS: I'm not a modder, I'm a hobbyist. I am most definitely NOT offering this as a service, please don't PM me to ask me to fix your watch. This is not a side business for me, just something I do for fun. My hope is that with some guidance from posts like this, more folks will learn to do simple repairs like this themselves.

Tshoot sent me his 5th gen 42mm PO to take care of the common ETA keyless issue.

I'll confess that I had a few different motives: one, I wanted to help out of course, but also I wanted to see one of these 5th gen PO's with my own eyes, I wanted to put together a new tutorial on how to fix this issue since it's so common, and I was curious if the watch had indeed been serviced in China like the dealer said that it was. It's been a while since one of these tutorials was posted and when I looked at one of the old ones, some of the links for the pics were broken.

So here it is, out of the box:

I opened up the caseback to find what looks like a nice, nickel plated Swiss ETA 2824

You can tell it's Swiss by looking at the shock absorber. There are three notches there

Three tabs hold the movement in. I pulled them out and put them, the screws and the movement holder itself in the caseback. I've learned from painful experience that one of the most critical things you can do while working on these things is to keep organized; the screws mostly look like they're the same size but some will not interchange.

I get ready to pull off the hands, using a dial protector (actually a cut-up business card--Bergeron dial protectors are the world's biggest rip off)

Hands off

I put the dial underneath the case so that it can't get scratched/something dropped on it, and put all of the parts I don't need for the moment aside.

Next the datewheel must come off, but I'll note that it looks like a gen ETA white-on-black date disc, or if it's a rep the printing is very nice, bright and crisp

There are a few ways to take the datewheel off, but if you're going to do the keyless anyway the easiest way is to just remove this cover

Next will come the keyless works cover. In this pic the screw that holds it on is already out, but the keyless works cover is still installed. If you've done this a few times you can already see the source of the keyless works problem. Also, you can see the "proof" that some Chinese watchmaker serviced this movement--he left a piece of blue lint in it (next to the dial feet hole at 2 o'clock)

Keyless works cover off. You can see that the yoke, which is supposed to be riding in the groove of the castle wheel, has been dislodged. This comes about because theyoke sits on top of the stem release plate, and if you push the stem release in too far, it will pop the yoke out and over the groove. The castle wheel will then get pushed all the way to the time-setting position and the yoke will get trapped behind it.

Another angle

and with some labels

So you just lift it gently with a tweezers or a pin and set it down where it should go. If you're lucky, this is the only thing that's messed up. However, the hack lever also rides in the castle wheel groove, so if your watch won't hack it's worth taking the castle wheel out and making sure the tab of the hack lever is in the right place.

This is what it should look like

and with the keyless works cover reinstalled.

I don't know the name for this part, but this thing

needs to be pushed over until the little nubbin can catch the three grooves in it. This is the thing that gives you three clicks when you pull the stem out. It should go like this

As an aside, this movement is not quite the same as the 2836 that seems to be used it a lot more reps. The 2824 doesn't have a day function, so the date discs and some other things won't be the same, but the keyless works is exactly the same for the two movements. Here it is next to a 2836

Now I reinstall the date disc

and I find that the date flips correctly and the time will set, but the movement won't hack. Oops, I forgot to do one little thing. Date disc comes back off

You have to set the little finger-like spring at the top of the keyless works cover to push on the side of the yoke.

Set properly (I know it's hard to see, but what you do is take a pin and push it gently to the outside until it clicks)

OK, now the date disc goes back on and everything works. Time to reinstall the dial. You put it in the holes and close the dial feet (this pic has the dial feet open, just swing them inward)

I noticed that the cool-looking Omega rotor is actually just a regular rotor with a stamped metal sticker on it, you can see it peeling slightly here

If you want to keep it (I would, it looks cool) it might be a good idea to remove it and make it more secure. What I would do is remove the rotor from the watch entirely, remove the sticker and re-glue it, then reinstall the rotor. All you have to do to remove the rotor is take out the one screw, it's easy. Probably not a good idea to try and do it while the rotor is installed, glue near movements is always a bad idea!

Anyway. Dial is back on

turn the crown until the date flips, then install the hands. This is midnight, and it can be tricky to get right. Even though I was careful, the date flips at 11:54

after a couple of tries I get it to flip exactly at midnight

There are the tools I use, btw: a Presto hands-puller, a set of grocery store tweezers, a set of Delrin tweezers (so as to not scratch the dial/hands) and a hand setter. That's less than $30 or so worth of tools, you don't need to invest in an entire workshop to do this. The other tools I used were a screwdriver and a pin I got out of a shirt.

I check to make sure the hands are parallel and not touching, and that the hour hand isn't touching the dial

Then I install the second hand (it doesn't have to go on any particular way) and move the hour hand underneath it to make sure it has clearance

Now it's time to put everything back together. The case has been upside down the whole time and I've been careful not to touch the inside, but I'll blow it out anyway to make sure there's no lint

then I drop the movement in and line it up roughly. The hole for the stem needs to face the tube, of course, and usually the movement holder has a certain way it needs to go as well.

I like to install the stem before I screw the movement down, for a few reasons. If there's any play at all, it helps to move the movement as far as it will go to the tube side to make installing the stem easier. Also, this is the place where you'll mess up the keyless again if you're not careful.

and now you'll want to install movement tabs. This should be easy, but you still need to be careful! I've broken hairsprings before, when I was putting in the one by the balance wheel and my screwdriver slipped.

Movement tabs in, put some grease on the seals, reinstall the caseback

and here is the repaired watch next to my UPO.

I grabbed this pic from a sale thread, this is the old Noob Explorer II

if you can find one this is what you want. Sadly, out of production (and I won't sell you mine!)

Why buy trouble?

Most rep crystals nowadays are quite good, in terms of size, date mag, and placement.

The GMT IIc has the AR under the cyclops, which the reps lack, and that's the biggest tell IMO.

Welcome!

Not to be a jerk about it, but... your rep is not very good. Maybe 5 years ago it wasn't bad, but there are reps that are light-years better than the one you have now.

Things I can see from that pic:

wokky rehaut

bad datefont

wrong placement of date window

wrong crown (7mm triplock, belongs on a sub)

CG's too think

case too fat

That said, these are things only guys like us notice so if you're happy with it that's great.

Most of the dealers here will sell you a clasp only if you ask nicely, or you can hang around the parts for sale area and try and grab one.

There's like a million sellers on eBay, or you could try Yuki, or helenarou.

I do not where you source them but I have not been able to get one to finish my 1675, I ended up buying a 2893, I am not sure if this will work.

http://www.ofrei.com/page1119.html

Ofrei lists them in their catalog

I think the problems with the modifiied GMT 2836 movements stem from the driving wheel for the GMT hand.

It looks like one piece, but is actually 2 seperate gears (upper and lower) and they are only friction fitted together. With time and if you play with the GMT function a lot, these gears will start to slip and the GMT hand won't track properly.

What you can do is then use a glue to hold the two gears together.

I've had good luck with bending the inside one slightly.

You know how the bottom one (the one that's driven by the calendar wheel) holds the center of the top one? Like |o|

If you carefully bend the | | so that they hold the |o| more tightly, that can help. Also, lubing the gear for the independent adjustment helps.

Note that if you choose to glue the two together, you have to remove the independent adjusting gear, otherwise if you try to adjust the GMT hand independently you'll break it.

The one Stan (WBK) just started selling isn't bad. Not as good as the noob was, but not bad. The crown position is a little low and the case is a little fat around the lugs. Rehaut is actually pretty ok.

Glue...?

I personally like shoe glue, rather than super glue. You want something that's not brittle and doesn't set TOO fast so that you can tweak it if you don't get it installed perfectly aligned.

I do

OK... so buy a 5513 rep, a 16610 rep, do whatever swap you like and sell the rest of the parts off. You don't even have to pull any hands, just swap movements.

And whats the fun in that?

I dont want it to be a perfect rep, i want it to be my own hommage to Rolex.

That's fine... but I still don't get it.

You want a 5513 dial and hands in a 16610 case...?

OK, I see. You bought an MDQ or whatever knockoff sub and scrubbed the logo off.

Rather than modding a 16610 rep, why not just buy a 5513 rep?

All the seconds @ six models have the correct subdial spacing. The 7750 daytonas are way too far apart and its quite noticeable. Its not soo bad on the vintage daytonas, but on the newer ones it looks bug-eyed and silly. If you can find the old seconds @ six daytona with the thinner case and the 21,600 bph movement, then you are off to a good start. All the new ones are way too thick and its very noticable on the wrist to anyone who knows. The case thickness is the first thing i look for when i see someone wearing a daytona. The gen is actually quite thin.

There are still new watches being built with the thinner case. I bought this one (used) a few weeks ago.

I've been thinking about removing the manual-wind bridge, grinding down the [censored] and trying to put on a flatter caseback, but I'm afraid I'll bork it.

Originally from Sead (only dealer I knew who could source a dial with black hour surrounds) swapped in a Swiss movement and a better (IMO) set of hands. Also changed out the original bezel for a bezel off of a Noob Explorer II. The crown position is a bit too low, the case is a bit too chunky, and the bracelet has solid midlinks but other than that I'm really liking this watch.

Right. Won't matter a bit.

The problem is, in the UK and the USA, we spend too much, we are too materialistic and retailers know this. I know that I may get a barrage of offended responses, but most of us have too much money. A generation or two ago a Man would buy a watch to tell the time for the next 30 years. Now we have 10 or 20+ watches sat in winders. Some families have 4 or 5 cars on the drive, it wasn't that long ago that there would only be 1 or maybe 2. Even Kids have too much stuff PS3, Wii's and iphones. I had a football.

Kind regards, Marc.

How is that a problem? Our standard of living has gone up.

I personally hold the opinion that most people, myself included, own too much junk, but I also don't think it's my place to pass judgment on how much stuff someone needs or "should" have. Why, after all, do you "need" more than one shirt? You can take that line of thinking quite far. Why does anyone "need" even one mechanical watch?

If some families have 4 or 5 cars in the drive, God bless them and the autoworkers and car salesmen and insurance agents that their spending helps to employ. It's not my place to say that they have too much stuff.

I have wanted to get my GMT IIC modified to use a 2893-2 movement, but thus far I can't find anyone who will attempt it.

One of the biggest problems with the IIc is that, as far as I know, no one makes aftermarket 2893-2 hands in green.

I've built 2893-2 GMT Master II's (16710) using hands from WSO over on eBay (everyone's favorite seller, I know) and it's a pain in the ass but not impossible.

I've just about finished an Explorer II project--Noob case and dial, with one of the new "jump hour" 2836's.

The hour and minute hand wheels have extra tall pinions (I think that's what they're called) and I need a seconds hand with an extra-long tube to reach. I have one for a GMT IIc, but I need a non-maxi one.

Anyone know where I can source something like that?

Thanks.

I have since stopped because the stock dial print quality isn't so hot.

Bert,

Sorry I hadn't realized you stopped shipping these watches. I guess I should have checked before opening my mouth

Still love mine!

I am so sorry to disturb watch specialists here,

I am just a noob, only servicing and modding movements, building GMT watches and chronographs,

sorry, I will stay watching tv cartoons and avoid to add comments in the future

Is anything I said incorrect?

the GMT hans track had nothing vrong with a 28.800bph,

Depends on what it is geared to. Geared to the calendar wheel you might be ok.

the problem is that high beat movements used for GMT reps are ETA 2836 series

There are high-beat DG movements.

which are not true GMT movements. The Chinese conversion is not reliable, thats why the track is problematic.

Every single one of my GMT-modded ETA 2836 movements has been utterly reliable.

The wheel that carries the GMT hand goes over the minute wheel, and as long as it fits properly there's no problem there. The gear that turns it is the same gear that turns the date mechanism, and as long as it is properly machined (it's a custom, non-ETA part) and everything fits snugly it's not problematic at all.

ETA has a 28.800bph true GMT movement, the 2893 series. Rep makers don't use it as it is an expensive movement.

It also has a lower stem height and less overall thickness. It's a totally different movement.

The Asian DG 3804 shown here is a true GMT 4th hand movement

The DG 3804 works EXACTLY the same way that the GMT-modded 2836 does. Look at a picture of a 3804 with the dial off. The 4th hand wheel just slides over the minute wheel, on top of the calendar cover plate. All of the extra gears are installed on top.

The only movement you can swap with is another 21.6kbph 21j.

If you go to an ETA, you'll need new hands and you'll have to clip the dial feet. If you go to a higher beat 21j, the GMT hand may not track correctly.