RobbieG

Hi guys, I have decided that each time I hear one of these stories I am going to post it just so that maybe the members will rally behind it and eventually the culprits will stop. I was visiting with my dear friend yesterday who is a major Rolex AD and among other things he was talking about a trip to the Rolex factory he had recently. Apparently, it is rare for AD's or anyone to ever get inside. In fact, they wouldn't even let his buyer in and would only allow the owners. They had a limited little tour of the factory which is a whole other story. Anyway, while inside he said they were in a conference room and Rolex brought in a cardboard box and dumped its contents out on the table. It was full of reps of all varieties. He said there was a mixture of really trashy $10 watches and some really good ones "with serial numbers" that he said Rolex claimned it was devoting all of its time to. He said they said, "These are the ones that scare us because they are so good. We know how we make these watches and they had to have bought millions of dollars of CNC equipment to make these..." Sure, we all know all that here but the reason for my post is this: In response to his comments about the factory I asked him if he continues to see a lot of fakes. The last time we talked about it he had told me that he had spotted a fake GMTIIc on a guy in his store. He is a real collector like us and not just because he sells watches. Anyway, he has a sharp eye and knows what to look for. He does not know that I am rep friendly though. So in response to my latest question he proceeds to tell me that he has AT LEAST 3 encounters a week regarding replicas. He said the most typical encounters are from three general camps - two of which could be people who have been here: 1. My buddy gave me this watch as payment for a debt and I want to know if it is real. He said these people are clearly undesireables who know nothing about watches. Probably just trying to pawn a known fake for a couple bucks. Not anyone here as he said these people bring in the $10 specials 2. WIS who come in and talk watches with him REGULARLY and when trying things on put their watch on a pad which he picks up and sees that it is fake on close inspection. And they are always very high quality fakes. 3. WIS who come in and hand him these same SUPER HIGH QUALITY replica watches and ask him if he thinks it is real. He then tries to engage them in conversation about where they got it after telling them he thinks it is fake and they say stuff like "I forget...or it was a gift...or I got it online". In other words it could be people here because he says they always seem to know alot about watches so he feels they actively seek out these reps and it is no accident. Look these people are obviously specifically going into to this AD to see if the watch passes the AD test. Playing with fire. I guess it must be an ego thing for some people to have an AD tell them he thinks it is real or something. And of course most wouldn't know. But for every 10 of those there will always be one like my friend - and I'm sure he tells Rolex about it too. But the amount of traffic he claims to be getting with stories like these is very disconcerting. Unless they ask for his opinion of authenticty he doesn't say a word and he says he has regular visits from guys he doesn't figure to be able to afford a lot of gens judgeing from the cars he sees them pull up in - and yet they have a different high quality rep on each time they come in. That is no accident. Someone from these forums - or many as the case may be is going into my AD not once, but many times with not one watch, but many. This really troubles me because it is one thing (which I don't codone either) to walk into an AD with a watch on your wrist which you don't take off or talk about, but to specifically interact with a known WIS Rolex AD of all things and discuss and hand your rep to him as a gen is just inexcusable.

Hey guys...I was at the AD yesterday and I saw one of the first two DDII's in platinum to come into the country. It is the one with the clacier blue dial and blue applied markers. Strange, but the flat forty-fiveisg degree bezel makes the watch wear WAY bigger than 41MM, so you guys that love big stuff will love it even more. The President bracelet has a similar image in person to the smaller counterpart. Anyway, it wears like 43MM. It is interesting, but Ever since Rolex came out with all these new watches I have noticed this phenomenon and there is nothing specifically to seemingly cause it across the board. The GMTIIc wears like 42MM and the new YMII wears like 45MM, despite being 43MM. Anyway, I just thought you should know. I also figured out what I don't like about the DDII. It is the dials really. I don't like the concentric circles or the arabic numerals (I don't like those in general). I must say that if the DDII was offered in romans or sticks and in all the plain dials - just larger - as the 36MM watch I guess I would like to have one. BTW, the PT950 watch is just RIDICULOUSLY heavy. I mean the 36MM case and braclet is a brick, but this thing is like wearing a cinderblock on your wrist!

Right, like I said unless a gen is inherently collectable. I was also refering to new watches obviously. Rolex base tool watches are collectable because everyone wants them because they are at the bottom of the range and they don't make enough to keep up with demand. I mean we all know that right? Ceratinly what the used numbers are which was clearly not the purpose of my post. Besides, this guy obviouly wants to move beyond the standard offerings and was not talking about Rolex. Example of what I was trying to illustrate: Roger Dubuis is a hot brand right now in high end circles but try not losing money on one of those - or AP even if you bought it new. I have a Millenary that I wanted to sell but will probably keep as I'm getting offers for fifteen grand on it mint. I paid WAY less than retail too. There are just too many of them new sitting in cases and being sold by AD's to discounters who in turn sell them at 20-25% off. Again, the used market is plagued by supply and demand issues related to the new market - which I guess you also coorborated - although you were relating used to used and speaking of the highest resale brand by far alone. I guess we are both giving the guy the right info which is what is important though.

Nice man. Love the strap. Make me one?

I was visting with a dear friend today who I have given a lot of business to over the years. He is a very astute collector himself and happens to be one of the largest Rolex AD's in the country, among other top brands. Anyway, we were having a typical visit and talking shop. I almost pulled the trigger on a ridiuclous platinum watch which I won't go into, but the gentleman in the story saved me in a way as I got distracted. he came in to pick up a Rolex piece he had ordered. One of the first 41MM Day-Date II's to arrive in country - and the flagship at that - a beautiful platinum piece with the glacier wave dial. Anyway, he joined in a chat about some behind the scenes stuff at Rolex, etc. and left. Seemed a very pleasant and knowledgeable older gentleman. So after he leaves my friend the AD tells me that he is one of the most astute collectors he has ever known. As it turns out, his style of collecting revolves around speculating on the success or failure of a brand or line within a brand by buying every watch from the maker or from within a range of the maker over a number of years. One such success I was told today was he had and sold the single highest auction price paid for a private Panerai collection in the history of the brand. I'm sorry but I didn't catch all the details and the store was closing so I had to leave, but I can give you the rough sketches. Apparently, this gentleman had bought an entire collection of new PAM's in one year before the brand got famous. My friend said he had not paid more that $300 for any one watch and he had stored them for many years in unworn mint condition. I need to find out the exact number of watches, but it wasn't many. Anyway, the entire collection recently sold for over $800,000. Pretty amazing for a bunch of steel tool watches. Wow. I always meet interesting fellow collectors in that store. Many of whom pay full price and wear them like all of us here. Sometimes it is hard to figure how much money some people have though. My best friend has a collection of over a hundred pieces totaling over 1M, but for some reason it seems kind of obvious to me in that of course it is worth that much. I mean a hundred gens many of which are complications adds up fast. Amazing but a little ridiculous to me. But here is something even more so. Talk about a fetish. But I met another guy in that store not so long ago that was a big Rolex collector with very refined taste buds. He told me he "likes" Rolex Date-Date Presidents so much that wanted to have one that went with everything. This guy HATES everything but DD's. I mean he just loves them and thinks there is no need for any other watch in the world. He goes on and on about Lyndon Johnson and all the other Presidents that have worn them and on and on. But get this - He owns a Day-Date in almost every dial and metal combo without diamonds - in YG, RG, WG, & Platinum!!! His goal is to get them all and whenever a new dial comes out he orders it immediately. He has over 30 so far. Do the math on that one. I mean even the gold ones are listing at 30K now and nearly 50K for the Platinum. So there is another coll mil or close to it right there. Crazy...

This thread makes me want to flick my tongue gently across her delicate hairspring while furiously polishing my balance c*ck.

I just mean that the really fine dress watches are hard to rep because even the movement decoration and materials are so fine that there is no way to make an Asian or stock ETA movement to look right. Also, the hand finishing and assembly of those watches is the whole thing. Many of them are very simple and so the luxury is brought out in the fine details. They don't pop without them. So again, reps of these can't help but fall short. By contrast, the sports watches are more about eye catching design and many of their movements may even be based on ETA movements themselves. There is also less super fine hand beveling, etc. done to the cases, bridges, etc. so reps of these can get blindingly accurate. Another major factor is materials. All the finest dress watches are never built with steel. So right off the bat a fine dress watch which is small that is supposed to be gold or platinum just feels terribly light, flimsy and cheap in steel. Just letting you know some of the trappings of buying reps of fine dress watches. You are better off sticking to the sports watches IMO.

You are too kind. There is usually a lot of "room noise" in my pics because I don't use a tent or light box so you always see those imperfect reflections in the polished surfaces. I get rid of a lot of it in processing but not all. Anyway, I'm just an amatuer at best. I could probably improve a lot if I used a controlled light environment, but I love the realism natural light brings to the watches so to me the sacrifice is worth it. On those same lines, that is what I always loved about many of Bytor's works. Many of them are "out in a room somewhere" and it somehow humanizes the watches for me. You are my hero BT! Yes, the acting boss of New Jersey wears his yellow gold Day-Date President with Champagne dial and fluted bezel with pride - and Jimmy G. is one big dude. Big boys CAN wear 36MM watches - they just have to be confident in their masculinity. LOL...

Thanks Chief. Yeah, the lugs are the whole thing now to me. And I agree about the rep fonts - although they do vary a lot on the gens. For example the fonts on the M's serials like mine are as small and thin as I have ever seen them. The Z's and D's are WAY different. The applied markers are thinner by a long shot but at a distance they really are fine for the most part. Anyway, thanks for the compliments.

Amen to that. And in fairness to the factories, this is a tough watch to get perfect and the bar is high on it to begin with. The PR, the size, the datewidow are always going to be tall orders for Asian movements with any sort of reliability for sure. The best reps will continue to be 7750, 2824, 2836, 2892, 6497 based for obvious reasons. I doubt if this watch can realistically ever be done as a 1:1 because of logistics issues inside the case related to the movement.

I had a Black Angus NY Strip last night for dinner. That is all I have to report on the Angus front at the moment...

Yeah, I'm not a Jubilee fan at all either. Really dislike them actually. I think the Oyster with the new clasp really make the watch cross over more. As long as I'm wearing a long sleve pullover or button down I regularly wear it with jeans. I just think it is a bit small to wear with a short sleve shirt though. I think smaller watches look good just outside a long sleve. Under is no good - then you can't look at it. LOL.

Not really. It is an M serial so I got it this year though. I just haven't been wearing it and I just kind of fell in love with its simplicity all over again as I have been looking at more and more smaller watches. I kind of have dress watches on the brain right now as I have thinned out the larger sports watches keeping only those in constant rotation. So I know I will be adding two or three really nice, but smaller dress watches over the next year or so. But this watch has had a permanent place in my collection and the rep did too for the year before I got the gen. I never cared for Datejusts until they redesigned them recently and widened the lugs and added the combo brushed - polished surfaces, new oyster bracelet/smooth bezel, etc...

Thanks. I'll be interested to read everyone's observations when comparing the photos...

Dude, Pizza sucks in Florida. Would you mind Fedexing one of those too me this afternoon? Oh, and nice watch too. I mean seriously, what could be better thank this combo? So here is the million dollar question though: We know Rolex sports watches are waterproof, but are they pizza proof?

It is a hybrid of sorts. SS case and bracelet. WG applied markers, rhodium hands plated in WG and WG bezel.

As promised here are a couple of quick comparison shots for you. The main things to note are as follows: 1. The latest gens have a redesigned case. The case is still 36MM, but the latest serial years have a case which has slightly wider lugs which make the watch look larger and more broad shouldered even though it is the same size. The Day-Date case is still the same and the DJ's no longer use the same case. The reps still use the same case as the Day-Date though. As you can see in the photos the sides taper down more steeply towards the lugs on the rep. 2. Also regarding the case, these latest cases have the engraving on the rehaut. The rep is correct but sort of incorrect in this regard. The rep case is correct in that it would just be an older watch, but instead it has the old style case WITH the engraving. It would be more correct to have no engraving since it is the older, narrower lugged case. Minor detail of course. 3. The Rhodium dial on the gen is of course real rhodium and in the rep it is just steel which is colored as closely as possible. This is only really noticable if you have them side by side, but there is a huge differnce in the complexity of the dial color. The rep always looks the same dark silver color and the gen has a whole range of color depending on the light. 4. The smooth bezel on the older style case should be less rounded and more of a 45 degree angle. On the rep I recently had, it came with the new style more rounded bezel, but I sourced a 45 degree one. I just never installed in on the watch before it was sold. The new owner should install it though to be most accurate. 5. The gen applied markers are white gold as are the hands. The rep hands and markers are steel. The rep hands are spot on. As usual the applied markers are a bit sloppy at high magnification on the rep but at natural distance they look perfect. Of note is that the gen markers are more rounded. 6. Rolex loves to change up dial fonts, crowns, the "swiss made" fonts, etc on these watches a LOT. I have seen many different variations and years of these and suffice it to say the rep fonts are fine with a capital F. Perfect and not sloppy at all either. 7. Since the F serial numbers, Rolex has been using single sided AR under the entire crystal and cyclops on the gen DJ's which is virtually colorless. It is not all that powerful but it is there. Not to be confused with the additional AR they now use on the mags on the GMTIIc. The DJ doesn't have that but just a general coating under the entire crystal. It shows up most in the cyclops and is much easier to see than the reps in that regard. The cyclops and its magnification are virtually spot on on the rep, but the numerals are certainly less crisp and bold than the gen. 8. The new style rep bracelet is perfect in every way. I feel that I could put the rep bracelet on the gen and be totally happy with it. 9. The crystal sits up nice and tall on the rep and is virtually spot on 10. The quality of the steel is great on the rep as well and the overall fit and finish of the parts is as good as I have ever seen on any rep. One final observation though that is tough to see in the photos though is that Rolex steel is really a LOT whiter than rep steel to me eye. Many don't really notice it but I do for sure. It shows up most in direct, natural light but it is there for sure. I don't know what it is about Rolex steel but it just shines more than the steel on any of my other gens by a long shot. It is just so nice. As a side note, their Rose Gold in my opinion is the best looking in the industry. They just really have metals down cold. Now on to a few photos. Sorry I don't have many but the main things to note are the cyclops, the dial color, and most importantly the case differences which should be obvious. The newer case with the wider lugs makes a HUGE difference on the perceived size of the watch. It is the strangest thing as it is so subtle and the watch is the same size. But that taper difference makes the new DJ's seem MUCH bigger than the Day-Date. Go into an AD when you get the change and compare them. Or better yet, find and AD that has an old brushed finish DJ to compare a new one too. It will blow your mind. A whole new watch for sure. But the bottom line is that the latest DJ's are some of the most accurate and well made reps around. I'm sure the member who has my old one might chime in here and let you know as well that the quality of those reps is off the charts. Highly recommended! Gen: Rep: Gen: Rep: Gen: Rep: Gen: Rep: Gen: Rep:

Well here is the rest of them. I'm glad that I finally got around to shooting this piece. It has been getting a lot of wear lately as I guess I am enjoying a return to elegance and simplicity and this is a natural companion to that. I must say that this piece is the single toughest ever to capture with natural light which is all I ever use in photography. I had a real tough time with the reflective surfaces. The dial is just stunning in terms of depth of color and I wish I could say I really captured all the nuances. Oh well. Here is the best I could do today...

It is a fantasy watch. The real version does not exist. It is sort of a cross between a few Malte and Patrimony watches in the line with the case definitely supposed to be a Malte case, but VC has no dials with an exposed balance. It is most like the Malte Dual Time Regulatuer which there is no rep of: http://www.gemnation.com/base?processor=vi...p;watch_id=3294 This is the closest I have found in looks to it but it is terrible of course. Maybe they don't make it anymore? http://www.pc-80108.com/vc10029-tourbillon...ite-p-1551.html If you want an accurate VC rep, this is as good as it gets: http://www.pc-80108.com/vc10014-malte-chro...nos-p-1795.html These Patrimony watches are not bad either: http://www.pc-80108.com/vc01015-patrimony-...uto-p-4920.html But when you get into reps from the big three (Lange, Vacheron, Patek) you are always asking for trouble. The reps just never quite cut it and the accuracy and feel are really marginal at best...

There is not a big difference in the list prices believe it or not. It always surprised me as chronos in anything are usually considerably more. The non-chrono on bracelet is $5200 and the chrono is $5700. On rubber they are a thousand less respectively. So either way, the deal seems too good to be true. What is the condition of the watch? Even at discount houses the non chrono on rubber is still over 3K. By the way, if the rehaut lume strip is white the watch is steel and if it is yellow it is Ti. Same prices for either. If you have a chance to get it for even twice that grab it if in good condition. Sounds like a steal to me. I just LOVE my Ti chrono. ..

Yeah, I never really looked at the dial that way. The most important thing to me is it had the exact same basic design of my stolen Chronoswiss Minute Repeater, which Chronoswiss borrowed from an early 1900's Breguet pocket watch. I actually like that the dial has the minute markers in contrast. I wouldn't want them to flip personally. That may partially be because neither the CS or the original Breguet did so I'm used to it. Anyway, Here is the original dial of the watch.

Man, I gotta get one of those. Looks like a billion dollars on the wrist. Wears reasonable for its size too - most Breitlings do because of the bezel construction making the dial appear smaller. Tried one on again at the AD a couple days ago. I think I'm gonna get the rep though and transplant a 7750 in it.

Just ridiculously WAY beyond cool to the thousandth power. I'm standing with Freddy and saying that is the best franken Sub I have ever seen as well. WOW.

Yeah, the brushed finish on the older ones makes the sporty crossover easier for sure. It is all in the Rolex steel and precious metals too. It seems like no steel looks or shines like Rolex steel - brushed or polished . Every watch they make with alternating brushed/polished surfaces just looks like a trillion dollars on the wrist. And the Platinum with the even "whiter" patina? Fuhgettaboutit...