panerai153

Sort of like this Used but not abused.9411 from 1981 961XXX serial. So its 29 years young!

There was a big discussion on the Rolex Forum ,I believe, about a week or so ago about service prices and where to go.Incredible prices! It's nothing to spend over a grand on a service at one of the RSC's. If they change anything it's extra, and guess what else? Parts removed are considered "Trade in" on new parts, so you don't get your old crystal or crown/tube,insert, etc. I suppose if you insisted, they would return your parts, but you would pay full price for any parts they installed.Several independent watchmakers were discussed as well, some of their prices are as high as RSC's prices. The difference is they will work on the older vintage watches, usually the RSC's won't. Their (RSC) claim is parts are not available, which may be true, but most watches require a clean, oil and regulate to run fine for a few more years, not a complete overhaul.I suppose if I had a really nice Double Red SD worth 20+k, I would be looking for the best service available no matter what the price, but when you consider the vast majority of Rolex watches are not collectible quality, or vintage, some of the prices bandied about were ridiculous. Quite a lot of the forum participants thought so as well.

Thanks for all the compliments. I really think this Tudor looks especially nice. I think this one will be around for a long time.I'll post more and better photos as soon as it gets home.

@ panerai 153,

Arthur,

I am interested in the sequence of events when the Rx Repair Centre changed the hands.

Was this something pointed out prior to the service, or was a change notified during, to which you approved, or did the watch just come back fitted with new hands?

I'm thinking here of the ramifications to the value of a piece where any modification from original, is just presented as a "Faite Accompli"

I assume service centres would have their "I"'s dotted and "T"'s crossed, but in this litigious world, I am wondering how strong their case may be?

Am interested in you view and interpretation.

Offshore

Sorry I couldn't answer sooner, but here goes. First the watch was owned by someone else when the hands were changed. RSC San Francisco did the work. From the looks of the hands, it was a while back. My watch is being returned from service, and I don't know the dates, but the service person who is and independent watchmaker said there were two service dates inside the caseback.This is speculation on my part, but after several conversations with Tudor owners on the Rolex Forums, a similar pattern developed. In a couple of cases, their watch was sent to a RSC for service. Of the ones in question, one was in Canada and the other two were here in the USA. In all three cases, the owners were told that the Snowflake hands were not available, but the RSC would replace the hands with Tudor Mercedes hands. The owners had the choice and were informed beforehand. In two cases the owners refused and the snowflake hands were left on the watches. In the third case, the owner agreed and they were replaced with Tudor Mercedes hands. This was the case with my watch according to the previous owner.

In quite a few cases, especially several years ago when the RSC's were routinely servicing 1680's 1665's and other vintage models, original dials and hands were routinely replaced with service dials and hands. In many cases, if the owner was not a collector, he didn't care, his Rolex was returned "As good as new".What happened was of course the collectible value of these watches was greatly diminished.As time went on and folks begin to realize that the vintage Rolex models had collectable value, more attention was paid to keeping the watch as original as possible. In order to do that, you had to specifically tell the RSC NOT to change the dial, hands bezel/insert. Rolex Service "rules" were different depending on who you talked to and which RSC you were using. One thing that actually happened to me, with a 1680 that I sent to RSC Dallas way back in the 1980's, was their refusal to service the watch unless they were allowed to change the Crown,tube and crystal. The crystal was pretty beat up with a lot of scratches and a few nicks and gouges, as the watch was my everyday watch. I was a farmer, so it got lots of abuse. I could see changing the crystal, but I didn't understand the reason for the Crown/tube change. I called the service center and questioned the need for those changes. Their reply was that they were concerned about the water resistance with the old crown/tube and crystal. They did not want the watch to be serviced and then not be water tight. They were adament about this to the point that they told me that they would not service the watch unless I agreed to the crown/tube, crystal replacement. I agreed, but I still to this day think that it was unnecressary and a way to charge for more parts. During the course of the conversation, they asked me about changing the hands and dial, which I said no, the old dial and hands were perfectly OK.

Generally, I believe that each RSC acts as it's own little kingdom. Some will ask you what you want done or not done, others will just do it unless specifically instructed not to do it. Today most collectors send their Rolex watches to the RSC personally, however lots of folks take their Rolex to their local AD who forwards the watch to the nearest RSC. They specify a "Service". If RSC has a question, they may contact the jeweler about something. IF you aren't specific with the jeweler, like having in writing and signed by both you and the jeweler, what you want done, they are going to do what they think needs to be done. With most people this is absolutely OK, however most collectors want to specify what is done or not done.Personally, I would never, ever hand a watch over to an AD of any brand and let them "Send it off to be repaired". I don't want any surprises when it gets back to me.

I recently tried to find correct snowflake hands for my Tudor 9411. Apparently, several years ago the watch was sent to Rolex San Francisco, which is a privately owned Rolex Service center. At that time, they replaced the bezel insert and the hands.Unfortunately, they didn't have the correct Snowflake hands so they were replaced with Mercedes hands.

I was able to find a source for the Snowflake hands from a member of the Rolex forum. He also had lots of other Rolex and Tudor parts and a watchmaker on staff.

I sent my watch to him a little over two weeks ago. It's finished and he sent some photos. What was done:

Full service

Replace hands with genuine matching Snowflake hands

genuine crystal

genuine 93150 bracelet w/ Tudor clasp

Here is the before and after

And After

I hang around the genuine vintage forums a lot, as I have several genuine Rolex and Tudor watches. Contrary to some of our folks who are really into the "Beat all to hell" look, the genuine vintage guys want a watch that is as unpolished as possible, and aged , but not extreme. the most desirable obviously would be DRSD's that were put in a safe the day they were purchased and never taken out in the sun. Obviously, my feelings are somewhere in between. I want one that looks it's age, but not abused.I'm not into the "shake the case inside a coffee can full of nuts and bolts for 30 minutes" I have a 16750 from the early 80's and it has a naturally faded insert, but the case looks unpolished and the dial indices are almost as white as the day they left Rolex. I also have a Tudor 9411 from 1981 that has a great dial with creamy colored indices. It has a beautiful Blue dial, however the insert was replaced by Rolex San Francisco.It's all in what you want it to look like, and that's an individual thing.

Lani,

That looks really,really nice. I have said in several posts about this watch, the biggest drawback is the cyclops. For some reason, it reflects more than any of my other rolexes, genuine and rep. In certain lighting it's almost impossible to see the date.

That would be a neat side project for some of our modders, i 'm sure those of us who either don't have the time, skills, or expertise, would be more than happy to pay for and AR coated under cyclops crystal like yours. Any takers out there?

Congratulations on a job well done.

I don't know boss,the old Ploprof's are going for around 5.5-6.5k and a few are languishing on the genuine forums for a long time before they are pulled or sold. I saw one on WUS sales forum a month or so back that had an amazing provenence. Watch was given to a scientist,Here's the story:

This is a one-owner, Type III-dialed Seamaster 600 from appx 1972.

The watch was originally purchased as a gift for a marine biologist with the Office of Naval Research (NOAA).

At the time that the watch was purchased (1972), he was just retiring as the Assistant Secretary for Science of the Smithsonian Institution.

This watch was worn daily up until the time of his death, in March of 1985. It was then retired to a drawer never to see the light of day again until late 2007 when I purchased it from his son.

Watch is in incredible condition, and the seller was looking to get 5900.00 USD, and it didn't sell.

Also saw an almost new 1200m "new style" on WUS for sale at 5975.00 USD, so the prices are pretty much the same. It would just depend on whether or not the rep manufacturers thought they could sell anough of the vintage to make money.

One thing, the ploprof in either variety is a special sort of watch. It certanly wouldn't appeal to everyone. I have an Ocean7 LM-7 Ploprof, and it's a massive hunk of stainless! I would think that these would be pretty limited appeal watches.

I'm with Mickey,The sum of the parts is really greater than the whole. I thought about that when I saw photos on the website. Bracelet looks pretty good, end links as well, both of which are pretty hard to come by. Then you have the 2846 which is getting a little harder to come by, so you have a nice slow beat engine, plus bracelet and end links which would be great for either a 1665 or a 1680 project.

Personally, I wish they would rep the original.I think it's a lot cleaner and better looking watch. Just my personal opinion.

I would like one of these, but I think I'm going to wait fror version V5.11111 in about 6 months!. It seems like every rep is coming from the dealers with problems, that are then solved, but on an incrimental basis.

This is a never sending "cat and mouse" game with these guys. What they are doing is illegal, plain and simple. They have lots of adversaries. The folks on the scammer rep sites hate them, the genuine watchmakers hate them, and government authorities hate them. So its a game of constantly moving servers, IP addresses, etc. trying to stay one step ahead of the hunters. They also have to use unpopular and expensive money collection methods, as the regular means such as PayPal and credit cards often are not available. WU and MoneyGram are certainly not my payment method of choice, and I will not use them except as a last resort, and only with folks that I know and trust.

By removing every vestige of replica information and prices, WM9s site is fairly sterile. He is not openly selling watches, and isnt advertising watches for sale, so his is an informational site only. Back several years ago, it was almost impossible to get an MBW, unless you knew someone and had been around the forums for a long time. Forget about Maria or George unless they knew you. No websites, you had to be referred by someone they knew and trusted or they wouldnt even answer your email. May get back to the same type business model again, if the heat gets turned up too much.

Arthur

This may be a really off the wall theory, but I believe George may have gotten some correspondence from Rolex vis a vis Counterfeit watches being sold on his website. Of all the rep dealers,etc. He would probably be the one Rolex would most like to shut down, as his reps are so darn good, they are scary. i just read a post by someone who bought the WM9 Yachtmaster, and did a side by side comparision with a real one, and the owner of the real one couldn't tell the watches apart!

The other thing that may have happened as well is he may have shut down ordering for a while until he catches up. He is so far behind schedule on the TT sub and the Seadweller, it's starting to create problems. I read a thread a while back here that he had 3000 orders for the Seadweller!! I hardly think that's possible, but who knows. It's probably more like 300, but that is a big bunch of watches if you are going to QC each one before it leaves the nest.Also there was a 13 page thread a couple of days ago over on RWI just blistering bklm for taking so long delivering watches, and then having the audacity to ask folks who made deposits to pay up as he needed to buy more watch components from George. The guy who startedthe thread PM'ed BK for more information on delivery of watches he had a deposit down on. BK didn't answer the PM or email within this guys comfort framework, (24 hours I believe). Well long story short, he opened a Paypal dispute with BK! There were 13 pages of rants, probably by folks who don't even know who BK is, much less have a deposit down with him.It seems like a lot of BK's problems are related to the problem getting parts, which goes back to George having quality control problems with the factories. BK gave the guy a refund and the PayPal dispute was dropped, but who knows now BK's account has a flag, and PayPal will look at every transaction checking for fraud.

I love it!! I'm so happy to see that all those cartoonish blinged out monstrosities are dead or dying. It was just a matter of time before the "Fad" watches fell out of favor. It happens with every thing that goes against the grain of good sense and good taste, evetually the "trend setters" tire of them and move on.

Arthur

A nice DW version of this watch would be a real looker. Now if you wanted to take it a step further and have it in gold with a nice honey Alligator strap anda Rolex Gold buckle, you would have a fine dress watch, sort of like Freddy's Gold Daytona.

Arthur

I'm vintage, so I really love vintage. Most of these are the watches I grew up with. Accutron's created quite a buzz (no pun intended0 when they were introduced.I would love to see the photos.

Arthur

The only thing consistent about the USPS is it's inconsistency! Your package was scanned when you mailed it. It will probably get scanned when it leaves the USA for the UK. Scanned again when it's received usually by UK customs. Sometimes it takes days for the USPS computer to update the status. When i get packages from outside the USA, I have found that you can use EMS Track/trace to get better information. The USPS usually won't show anything once a package leaves the USA. Google EMS and go to the track/trace page, type in your tracking number and see what comes up.

Mickey, if you take the package to the Post office here in the US and get insurance and delivery conformation you get a receipt. When you send a package to the UK you use the customs declaration number for tracking. That is the number you use for parcel force or EMS tracking.I am presuming that a customs form was filled out,correct?

I wouldn't worry if you just sent it out on the 15th. USPS doesn't do anything on weekends and Monday is a holiday, so you should get a tracking update by Tuesday evening.The other thing to consider is the speed through customs. It may already be in the UK, but may sit for a week before it filters through the customs process.

I'll give you and example of how slow things update. The Zigmeister shipped a watch back to me on the 6th of January. Here is the list of notifications that I received.

Delivered, January 14, 2010, 1:43 pm, NATCHEZ, MS 39120

Notice Left, January 13, 2010, 1:42 pm, NATCHEZ, MS 39120

Arrival at Unit, January 13, 2010, 8:14 am, NATCHEZ, MS 39120

Inbound International Arrival, January 09, 2010, 5:55 am, ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS)

Origin Post is Preparing Shipment

Foreign International Dispatch, January 08, 2010, 1:41 pm, MONTREAL, CANADA

Foreign Acceptance, January 07, 2010, 11:05 am, CANADA

I got the delivery notice in my mailbox on the 13th. As of that morning the only thing showing on my computer was the above in bold. The last thing that was showing was "inbound international arrival on January 9th". Nothing from the 9th to the 13th when it arrived at my local PO. 4 days in limbo! All of the other information updated the next day after delivery!

The USPS is pretty frustrating. As you can see above my package arrived in Natchez at 8:14 AM on the 13th By the time I got it it was mid day the next day.

Don't worry about it yet.Worrying isn't going to get it any faster.

Arthur

Well it's raining like crazy and a dull and gloomy day here in MS so maybe the old comfortable flannel shirt and the 1680. Saints vs Cardinals in and hour or so.

Have a great weekend

Arthur

It's really sad that TTK ended up as he did. I never wish badly on the folks who are ill. I hope that his health improves.

TTK was many things to many people. I had a few business dealings with him, and he always delivered what he promised and always in a timely manner.

I was a great admirer of his photo skills, and had several lengthy email discussions about techniques, lighting, etc. Others and I know there were many, had a totally different perspective of him. I do know that while he was very, very knowledgeable, be was also completely intolerant. It always seemed to me that his inability to tolerate criticism or any differences of opinion was his weakest point. I believe that he used his knowledge of watches, life in general, and his very good command of the English language more as a weapon rather than a positive. I

I agree. A resolution to change means to me that you have to change whatever you resolve. Ubi, you can't use that as a resolution!! you are already one of the nicest, most helpful and sharing folks on the forum. I can speak ferom experience, because I have known ubi from way back on the old TRC forum, and he has helped me lots and lots of times. So my friend, I'm afraid you're going to have to pick another resolution.

Kindest regards

Arthur

Ubi,

You are absolutely right, I don't wear mine much and it always seems like there are 25 days between the last wearing and the date I want. Easy breezy w/ the quickset, quite a chore with the tiny crown and non quickset. Love my 16750!I would say if you are going to invest in one genuine Rolex, this would be the one.

Arthur

Sorry, That's what I meant, non-correct hand stack.

Arthur

I doubt that it has the correct hand stack, they have been a dud! Hope for NCHS. These are really nice watches. ihave one, and it gets quite a bit of wrist time.I don't see a whole lot wrong with these outside of the rehault engraving and the lack of AR under the cyclops.

Arthur

Lots of car salesmen, especially the used car guys wear Rolex Day Dates. I'm sure they are all Replicas, as I still see some with the Quartz movements!!

i'm sure sales people wear everything, but I have seen a few around here with the above watches.

Arthur

Mike I bought mine here on the sales forum from the same member I got my 1680 from. He had two for sale at the time, I don't know if he still has the second one. If you get to that point in your project post a "Want to buy' on the trading zone. Also you may go to Ebay and find either a movement or a "Donor" watch that has the 2846 movement in it.

PM abakan, he had the one on the trading zone on Dec 4th

Freddy, yours is an object of beauty. Great example of a 1665. How easy was it to fit the 1570 movement in the MBW case? Does the 1665 case have the same crown tube opening problems that the MBW 1680 case has?

Arthur

As much as I like my GMT Master IIC Ceramic GMT, I don't see anything comparable in the older GMT's. I really like toomuchgears 16750. The first series of 16750's had matte dials and non surround indicies, and are virtually indestinguishable from the 1675 that immediately preceeded them, but one very handy and useful difference. The 16750 movement is quickset, the 1675 is not. Very, very helpful if your watch isn't worn on a regular basis.

Supposedly WM9 is planning a 1675 project, but it may be 2 years before it is in the actual stage of "ready to ship". look at how long folks have neem waiting for the WM9 Seadweller.

If you can scrape together the funds, Genuine is definitely the way to go with the 1675/16750 GMT's

Arthur