panerai153

Beautiful watches. In my opinion, the 1675 and 16750 are the most useful, comfortable and attractive of all the Rolex models.

Cheers and congrats on you and your friends purchases.

Arthur

Mike,

Been there, done that. Better do all that now, because if you get to Med school, you won't have time to look at your watch much less build one!!

The vintage beat or slow beat movement is the ETA 2846. It's pretty easily obtainable. I just had The Zigmeister drop one in my Rolex 1680 that he has been modding for me. It's a little faster than the Rolex 21000+ vs 19000+ , but it's close enough that most folks can't tell the difference, but they can with the regular ETA's that are at around 28800.

Good Luck

Arthur

Thanks a lot guys i really appreciate your accolades!! Thank The Zigmeister for his beautiful work. eddog for the genuine bezel insert. I am definitely going on Ebay right now to order the 580 end links. I just got a PM from ETZ that said their 93150 bracelet will only accept 1.6mm springbars, but the bracelet ends could be drilled out. I'm probably going to pick up one of those and drill out the ends to 2mm.

Anyone else think of anything else that needs to be done to this old girl?

Thanks

Arthur

Welcome to the forum. WOW you really intend to jump in feet first aren't you? First of all, a genuine Rolex is a genuine, period. You can't make a genuine with parts that are aftermarket, that's a franken, no matter what Rolex parts are in the watch. Sourcing all the necressary genuine parts to build a vintage 1665 would be prohibitively expensive. The genuine Rolex collectors are hoarding all the genuine parts that can get their hands on, looking to the future when parts are not available anywhere.

What you are trying to do from what I can see is start off with a rep and replace parts one at a time until you arrive at a genuine, is that correct.First off, the ETZ 1665 cases may or may not accept genuine parts. Crown/tube yes, dial ? movement probably not, bezel maybe, crystal maybe. So you have lots of maybes and probably one no and that's the genuine movement. If you start with a Yuki or comperable case, you would have a better chance of adding on genuine parts later.

All in all, you are trying to accomplish a very daunting and probably very frustrating task. i would not say it is impossible, because if you have enough funds, time and expertise, you can do just about anything. One thing that stands out to me is your lack of watchmaking skills. If you read the posts on this and other forums, almost everyone who has built the really beautiful "Super Franken" watches are first of all a very skilled watch person and second they have been around long enough to develop a lot of connections which helps immensly with acquiring hard to find parts, etc. There are very few watchmakers who are willing to talke a box of parts and build you a watch, possibly a few, but for the most part, they have tried doing just that and don't have the time or desire to have the hassle.

Sorry to be negative, but I would hope that you want to hear the negatives as well as the positives. At least with that, you can make an informed decision about starting a project.

Good Luck

Arthur

I just got my 1680 back from The Zigmeister today. it's and old case MBW (Orig polex 5513) that I bought from another member who had done some mods, but really wasn't finished.

Here's what's been done so far.

Mods done:

1.case refinished for rounder edges, profile and repolished;

2. lug holes drilled; The Zigmeister chamfered outside to match original

3.crown guards filed;

4.genuine older style 7mm crown and tube installed;

5.genuine tropic 127 installed; Has a few scuffs and scratches, but that's what gives a tool watch its character

6.geniuine insert installed, pearl realigned by The Zigmeister

7.aftermarket bracelet stamped 93150, endlinks stamped 455B and aftermarket thick 20mm springbars.

8.ETA 2846 Slow beat movement installed by The Zigmeister

9.Dial and hands relumed to a lovely cream color by The Zigmeister

Next will be a better bracelet, 580 end links and genuine springbars. Eventually maybe a genuine 93150 bracelet

I took a couple of down and dirty photos this afternoon, not too good but you can see the watch.I'll try to take a few more good ones and post later. As ususal The Zigmeister did a wonderful job of modding my watch. I had a MBW White dial several years ago, but sold it. I regretted that sale almost from the day I sold the watch. Finally found another one

Those end links will not work with genuine Rolex springbars. Rolex are a shade over 2mm in diameter. Not sure the ends of the 93150 bracelet will work either with the genuine springbars.You can PM offshore, about springbars. i believe he has springbars that have the correct diameter ends to look like Rolex springbars, but the internal diameter is small enough to use with Replica bracelets.Genuine 19350 w/ correct endlinks will set you back anywhere from 450.00 USD to 800.00 USD depending on condition and luck! Not sure if the "good" rep bracelets from yuki, ETZ, etc will accept genuine, PM them to find out.

A dial/hand relume with a slightly aged patina would make it look a lot better. I don't know why the rep manufacturers use this silly yellow color, but it isn't accurate and is asure "tell" from 20 feet away.

Arthur

And what if a noob registered and posted today;

"Hey, love the site and have been spending the whole day with the 'Search', but haven't found out anything conclusive. Please excuse my noob question. I have a genuine Rolex calibre 3135. Is there any replica Sub case out there (CN, TWB, MBK etc.) that you guys know of that will accept the movement? Thanks in advance."

A resounding; "No!".

How they engineered the 'fake' case to accept the movement with regard to the lateral position of the winding crown to the case (all our ETA and clone motors position the crown too low with regard, the someday remedy may indeed be the 1:1, or close to it, copy of the 3135) is the intriguing part. If it is indeed a counterfeit case, not a bastardized 16613 to 16610 situation, there is no way that case came from a 'run' of 1998 replicas, from any factory. They would all have to have been machined as 'one offs'. Interesting....................

Was it a foregone conclusion the case was fake? The RSC said it was a TT case with s/s bezel, crown and bracelet. I'm not sure from the posts they were conclusive that this was a counterfeit case. The other possibility was a yuki type case that someone was building. I don't know when those "replacement" cases made their debut, but I bet they have been around for 10+ years. Just like over the years a thriving aftermarket has developed for all other Rolex parts, crowns,tubes, bracelets, crystals, dials, hands, bezels, inserts, why wouldn't someone out there be producing cases as well.

Lots of folks bought Rolex watches over the years as an everyday using watch, they weren't WIS, they were just everyday folks who could afford a little bit nicer watch. I bought my first Rolex about 3 years out of college in about 68-69, a 1500 datejust. I wore it for a couple of years and then bought my first Sub. The datejust was a little too "Dressy" for work on the farm. I bought a 1680 brand new for 500.00 dollars. Long story short, if during those years, a watch was a watch. It was for telling time and date. It wasn't a status symbol, at least the s/s Subs weren't.

Myself, like most folks who live far away from a RSC took our watches in to be serviced by anyone who was a "Rolex" watchmaker. This may have meant the fellow had been trained by Rolex, maybe he took the Rolex certification exams, or it just meant that he had a few manuals and the tools and by experience got proficient with Rolex watches. More than likely if the customer was a little budget conscious, the watchmaker offered him the choice of aftermarket parts, because they were cheaper, or the watchmaker wasn't on the Rolex list to buy parts. It

I am curious to here Freddy333 chime in on this as his "Beater" DRSD seems to see a lot of daylight. Wonder what, if any, attention he has ever received while wearing it.

Personally, if I were wealthy and fortunate enough for a DRSD, I would wear it out and about. I probably wouldn't dive with it, but I would definitely wear it out to dinner.

I would sure wear mine out to dinner and to parties, etc. but I sure as heck wouldn't be wearing it out in the yard cutting grass, weed eating or cutting firewood!!

Arthur

I think you hit the nail on the head there, and your comment about shame ties back to my comment on perception. Assuming everything in his account is honest, then for the past decade, he's been going around wearing what he thought, was a genuine Rolex, and if anyone asked "Is that a real Rolex?" he probably said "yes,". Not a deliberate falsehood, as he would have thought he was telling the truth, but, of course, it was a rep all along, so the only difference between him telling someone it was real, and someone who knowingly bought a rep and tries to pass it off as a gen (possibly equally successfully) is the knowledge of the owner and their perception of the truth. It would be interesting to know how/if the owners perception of the watch (as a watch, not as an investment) changed upon finding out that it was actually a rep, and if the financial aspect could be overlooked, and it was still appreciated as the watch which had obviously given a decade of loyal service

It sort of sounded from the thread that he was so bummed about the deal and discovering that his watch was not a "Real" Rolex, he could never be happy about it again, it suddenly wasn't a ROLEX, it was just a watch with a Rolex motor! I'm sure the decade of loyal service went out the window the moment he got that package back from the RSC with his unserviced watch and the rejection notice. Too bad, because he still has a watch that's as good as it gets, just needs a service. He will never be happy with this one ever again.too bad.

Arthur

You might try Ebay. Type in 2846 and search, sometimes you need to check the box to search item descriptions to broaden the search. Quite often movements or watches with that movement will be up for sale. i bought a NOS watch with a 2873 movement for 60 bucks a few weeks ago.

Also Google that model number possibly some watch seller will have one for sale. There are tons of watches that were produced and sold only in the European market that were never sold in the USA. lots of those are in NOS to very good condition and sell really cheap.

Good Luck

Arthur

I"m afraid there isn't much out there to start with to mod. And as ubi said, when you start buying yuki cases, bezels, inserts dials crown/tube and a genuine movement, yo uare going to have a franken that costs you more than the genuine. The price of 1675's hasn't gotten obscene like some models, and the economic down turn has put quite a bit of downward pressure on used watch prices. If you go to TZ sales corner, Rolex Forums sales forum, etc. you will see that the watches that are moving are either very desirable watches with a provenence, and watches priced to sell, at a reasonable price.

We have been trying to get the dealers to build a correct 1675 for quite a while, so far no luck!

I see 1675's all the time on those forums. You aren't going to get one for 800 Euros, but you can't build one for that either.

Good Luck

Arthur

You know what vintage model would sell like no other... GMT 1675.

We have seen the Dwellers, Subs and Daytonas... but there has never been a decent 1675

You are absolutely correct. I would jump on a really nice 1675 especially if it had the 2893 engine. Tha would be a really, really great watch.

Arthur

I'm with By-Tor, the DRS is a raaaaaare watch. Not many around, and not the sort of watch anyone would wear on a daily or regular basis. Heck, I would bet 99% of the collectible quality DRSD's never see the light of day, except to come out of the safe or Safety deposit box occasionally to be "Fondled" by their owners.It sure isn't the watch some 30 something guy would wear to the beach or out having a few beers with his friends.in fact this 60 something probably wouldn't wear mine out very much if I was lucky enough to have one. Just too valuable, and on top of that good condition genuine parts are becoming harder and harder to source.

Maybe when they come out with a white dial version, they can fix the dial. they need to redo their spacing of ROLEX under the Coronet. The L should be directly in the middle of the Coronet, or slightly offset to the right. This one is way off left. All in all a nice watch, and if they use the proper bezel assembly like genuine, that would be a real deal.

Arthur

I'm sure there were folks putting together "Franken" Rolex watches back then, they were selling fake omega Seamaster 300's with genuine Omega movements, sometimes not the correct movement, sometimes a movement made from parts from several models, but if you weren't very dilligent, a quick look inside and it was "looks fine to me, that's a genuine Omega movement". I bought one years ago, it looked perfectly normal?, but over time, i began to suspect it wasn't all genuine. The dial had a few minor "tells", and the caseback was worn down (probably ground down and repolished to make it look worn) The bezel/insert was really crappy, so I bought a NOS as a replacement. Much to my dismay, when I took the old bezel off, the little Ball bearings that are the "Click" mechanism weren't there. Not lost, no place for them. Of course when I tried to put the new bezel on, it wouldn't fit. I kept it for years, finally sold it to a guy who knew it was a fake, as I disclosed everything about it, even opened the caseback to let him see the movement, and showed him the problems. I took a bath on that one, but it taught me a valuable lesson, look before you leap.

This Rolex deal was obviously a case of a young unaware buyer who finally had a few nickels in his jeans, and wanted a Rolex. He said in his posts, he only knew that the hand was supposed to sweep and not jump like a quartz. I'm sure he never even looked at the invoice from Ashford, although their invoice may or may not have had the correct model and serial number. He never removed the bracelet, so he had no way of checking the serial and model numbers.He had no way of knowing that this was a Franken, until Rolex dropped the bomb on him. Had he had access to a forum like this or good high quality photos from good reference books, he could have compared his watch to the examples, or posted photos. A close examination and comparison would have revealed the incorrect too short case guards, the rehault that looks like it's made of pot metal and the inncorrect and obviously fake end links that don't match the fake bracelet.

More than likely what happened here is Ashford got hooked on this watch as a trade-in, that was signed off as genuine by and inexperienced Ashford watch repair person. Ashford cut their losses by passing it along. I'm sure had the guy been smart and taken the watch to an experienced watchmaker who could tell it was "put together" Ashford would have claimed innocence by virture of the genuine movement, and exchanged it or refunded his money. Now unfortunately, "The train is gone". He can take it to a good Rolex repair person, have it serviced, and wear it with out shame. That's what I would do. Or he can do what some folks do with no qualms at all, put it in a Rolex box with a handful of papers and put it on Ebay as a genuine Rolex sub. Passing it along to the next"mullet"

Just my Dos Centavos

Arthur

I just got the email. I looked at the DRSD, pretty nice watch. Some glaring dial deficencies. I was impressed with the crown position, much more centered, and the replacement crown looks much better than the one on the watch. I bet this one would really look good with a genuine crown/tube and a better dial.Nice price too for a watch with a genuine 2846 slow beat.

Springbar holes look drilled out to genuine diameter, which is a first for a rep isn't it? Would be nice to know if this one will accept genuine parts?+

Arthur

If you have have the 2836 engine, you should be good to go. I have one and it's probably my favorite watch (Right now!!) In fact my genuine 16750 is getting a well deserved rest since I got this one. Here's mine

Price on this one is fine for a first time modder who is looking for a "Practice" watch, to experiment with modding. If the bracelet is as good as Lani says it is, it's worth the price for the bracelet. As far as a serious modding project, it's a definite thumbs down. That lower crown tube opening is a real deal breaker. Some of the rep subs are lower, but this one is waaaaay too low. Also the drillled lugholes are too close to the edge for me. I'm not sure what case you could use for a really good vintage DRSD. Yuki would be great if you can source a spacer to be able to use a 2846 slow beat.Otherwise, I'm just not sure.

Not my cup of tea.

Arthur

Those are very sought after by Military watch collectors.Lots of info on the Benrus type I and II over on the MWR (Military watch Resource) forum. This is also the watch that Bill Yao patterned his Blackwater MKII after. It was an issue watch to American soldiers, probably Special Forces, Seals, etc. very collectible. If this watch had a good original dial/hands it would probably sell for anywhere between 1500-2000 dollars, especially from a trusted dealer that specializes in military watches. ONe word of caution, just like the Seamaster 300's and Blancpain's there are a lot of fakes being sold as originals. Allegedly, all of these are coming from a shop in Vietnam that produces these vintage replicas, often with genuine movements (not always the correct one for that model, or one that is made from parts of several different movements)These get sold on Ebay as genuine vintage and later prove to be fakes. this one is not, it's the real McCoy.

About the Borel. At the time that Doxa along with most of the Swiss watch industry was getting it's proverbial Ass kicked by the Japanese quartz watch industry, a group of watch manufacturers banded together hoping that size would save them.Thus Synchron was born. Borel was a part as was Doxa,Cyma and Tavannes. There was a lot of parts interchanges, the companies doing what they could to survive. This Borel watch clearly has Doxa hands, shares the synchron caseback,movement (Only the rotor needs changing) and probably uses the same size and configuration of the dial blank(actually looking at the dial, it looks exactly like some of the Doxa dials in Dr. Pete's book, only difference is the name).

Interestingly, Jules Borel, don't know if the name is a coincidence, or a family member, was for years the US distributor of Borel, Doxa and other Synchron watches, as well as the authorized US service center. They were located in Kansas City,Missouri.I bought a bunch of Doxa parts from a watchmaker in KC who bought out all the remaining stock of parts several years back from Mr.Borel's widow. He told me that he got a small U-Haul truck full of all sorts of stuff. He told me it was in 14 filing cabinets!! Unfortunately, he didn't have a lot of Doxa Dive watch stuff, but for several years, he put watches and other stuff on Ebay. He was literally building watches from NOS parts.I was able to get Dr.Pete and him together and he sent Pete a lot of Jules Borel's Doxa sales literature . Dr. Pete copied all the brocures and several of them are in his book.

Just a little Synchron Trivia

Arthur

I agree with lani, My wife sensds money to her family in Europe all the time. We used to use Western Union, but their rates are really ridiculous. 10-15% depending on where you send the money. She uses moneygram now, much less expensive. You can go to Moneygram's website type in your zipcode, and every Moneygram merchant, address and phone number will show up.

Make certain that you spell the recipients name correctly. check over the form before the clerk hits "send" The recipient will have to show proof of identity such as a drivers license or passport along with the control number that is on your invoice. Everything has to match! IF not, it's a hassle because you have to have the transaction reversed and redo it.

I would not have any problems sending money via moneygram to any of our dealers, but having said that I would never ever send funds Western Union or Moneygram to anyone I didn't know. A few years back there was a new dealer on the old TRC named Luucky. He was about the only source at that time for MBW, unless you were a well known member and could buy from George or Watchmaster, well, Luucky sold a few watches and delivered OK, but after a time, he quit delivering and sort of disappeared, along with quite a few folks funds. Only time I can remember this happening. But never use these funding choices with someone unknown.

Arthur

avitt,

I believe that the 22mm and 24mm bracelets are tapered. The 20mm is straight. I really like mine, it's a lot more comfortable than I would have thought.

Arthur

The WM9 site is working again, however it looks like they are still getting it back up to speed. I went on to check if there was any news about the SD project. photos of the watch, but the "project log" is gone. Also none of the watches shown have a price or any place to order. In the past, you could go to the individual watch and scroll down the page to the radio button for ordering. That's not there anymore either.

Hopefully they will get everything back up and running at full speed soon.Would be nice to know if there is any progress at all on the SeaDweller project?

Arthur

Try Jurgens, they make a great heavy duty mesh with a foldover fliplock clasp. They will make custom sizes as well as available in several stock lengths. Jurgens -Go Here

Here is a photo of my Ocean7 ploprof on the 4mm mesh bracelet.

Hope this helps

Arthur

@ alligoat,

So what your saying is the "old style" cases that ETZ is selling may not be exact copies of the old MBW cases? If that is the case, Possibly the surest bet would be to hover around the forums and try to find an older "old MBW" rather than chance the Newer "Old Style". I know they come up all the time, as i got one several weeks ago, and there have been several more since then.Maybe some of the members who have sucessfully modded the New "Old style" cases can chime in with their thoughts.

Arthur

i have all my gen / aftermarket / 2846 etc parts ready just need the correct mbw case, it's either the 5513 or the 1680, a member from the RG boards brought to light that the mbw 5513 case has a slightly higher bezel than the gen 5513, the 1680 case however is also marked as 5513 on the lugs of the case but comes with a close to gen lower bezel, just comes with a cyclops crystal that can be easily swapped with my clarks t19. Just would like confirmation from some senior vintage modders that can chime in on which case 5513 or 1680 has the closest bezel replication of the gen 5513 so i can alter my order asap.

Here is his beautiful 5512 made from a 1680 case, as you can see the bezel seems nice and low like the gen 5513, on mbw 5513 cases used for a 5513 project tend to have the higher bezel...

http://repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=81107

There is only one case.MBW used the orig Polex Design 5513 Case for the 5513 model as well as the 1680. Back in 2005-2006 when we were getting these watches directly from George, Watchmaster and a few other dealers, there were umpreen threads on the old RWG and TRC about the incorrect lettering, which was and instant "tell" if someone saw your 1680 without the bracelet.There may have been two different bezels used for the 5513 and the 1680, I'm not sure.

The correct bezel would be a genuine 5513 bezel from that era, anything else is going to have some subtle variations. that's why the "super frankens" use genuine parts for everything except the midcase.If you want one that is really correct with correct engraving between the lugs, you need to use a Yuki or similar. You might have a problem fitting the 2846 in one of those "replacement" cases, but if you fill it up with genuine parts, you will have a really,really nice watch. You will have the same with the MBW case as well, just don't take the bracelet off!LOL

I looked at the photos on the link you provided. He didn't show any side view photos, so i can't really tell anything about the height of the bezel. You would need to have a 5513 MBW side by side with a 1680 MBW to tell. It would have to be a difference in the bezel, because they are both cased in the same case. Another thing, the crown tube opening in the MBW and most similar cases is lower in the case to accomodate the ETA movements. When you look at a genuine 1680 side view next to a MBW 1680, you can see the difference in the crown. It is a little highter in the genuine. that's why you have to use a spacer ring when you use an ETA in a Yuki case as the movement sits too low in the case for a good crown/tube fit.

Good luck

Arthur

I agree 100% with Mickey. Some members have had good luck with the Asian clones, others have been DOA and/or developed big problems in a short tiime. The genuine ETA 2836 is not perfect by a long shot, as it is a "bastardized" movement as well. the GMT module is an add on. The positive part is you can get the ETA movement serviced, it's much better made, and parts are readily available. You aren't going to fool anyone with the "Clone" movement. Anyone familiar with genuine Rolex movements can tell it's a fake from yards away. For the life of me, I can't see how they are getting away with selling these movements for the same price as genuine ETA.

Just my Dos Centavos

Arthur