seraphe

Looks grey to me. Nice matte grey I know it's not exactly the black we were all expecting, but I don't mind the stealthy look if it's greyish like how I'm seeing it...

... erm... dust on the inside?

Saw this from his earlier post... or I thought I saw it. I could be wrong. I wasn't quite paying attention to the "/4000". I simply saw the "E" which is more obvious. But you could be right since you know better about this. Ooops. My bad. I meant to say OP II but instead I quoted a wrong one. OP III is an automatic. You're right again. This I do not agree. Movement for 111E and F series should look like this, while his movement looks like this... So based on the above understanding of the movement, this is the wrong caseback to the 111. The caseback for this movment should be closed. Again, see his initial post on this same watch when he first got his SS bracelet... here. It could be a trick to my eyes, but the pics tell me the case is brushed. Again, my mistake pre-E movements should be OP II, which is exactly what this movement looks like. No problem. It's a good sharing of info we exercise here. My intention of my initial reply was to express my confusion with this '111h' he has. Looks like a hybrid of pre-E and E/F series to me.

I agree with PAMman totally. In the rep world today, there are 4 main types of movements used in pannie reps. It's really what you want... Base Asian Unitas 6497 copy, 21,600 VPH New Asian Unitas 6497 copy with swan neck, 21,600 VPH Asian Clone ETA 6497 with swan neck, 21,600 VPH Swiss Stamped 6497 with Swan neck, 18,600 VPH Both the Asian unitas copies are identified without any ETA stamp marking behind the balancing wheel. The Asian clone ETA replicates the ETA stamp of the swiss original but are etched instead of stamped. This ETA clones are claimed to be able to take gen ETA parts but this has not been tested and proven. Even with the Swiss, unless it is left untampered, it is not to be considered a 'genuine swiss' movement but rather a hybrid of gen swiss base and Asian face plates. If you wish to have a full 'genuine swiss' movement, get a closed back PAM. But so far most of the Asian clones have shown to be rather reliable. In case of possible accidental shits, you can opt for the Asian clone of the ETA which can be fixed by watchmakers with gen parts. Hope this helps

Sorry for the [censored] that happened, TeeJay A different way to look at it, this may be an opportunity to get a new 111h. Nevermind about the higher end mods, but you may wish to try fish at least one that looks more correct. Here's how I see this '111h': - Sandwich dial tells me it's an H-series Luminor Marina (PAM111h). - Case back marking tells me it's an E-series (PAM111e) - Movement tells me it's a pre-E series Luminor Marina (PAM001). - Brushed case tells me it's a titanium case or an automatic. For one, the movement in this '111h' looks like older looking OP III, which would be correct for PAM001 rep (precedent of PAM111). The 111 houses the newer OP IX (which replaced OP III) have has a different looking bridges from this one. Secondly, even with the correct look on the movement, the case should not be brushed for an SS Luminor. The only Luminor cases that are brushed are Ti or Luminor Automatic. If you are looking for a new 111H, be sure to ask your dealer for one that looks like one. Should you need any help, buddy, feel free to ask

Cosmetic wise, it replicates the look of OP III. This movement would make a great rep movement for a PAM001, provided it comes with a closed back and sausage dial.

Just thought I'd share a few pics of mine... modded 111H tapered SS bracelet So how tapered is tapered? See for yourself

I can ignore the look of the modified rotor-less Asian 7750 movement. I can handle the 47mm case. But... WHERE IS THE PARALLEL PR INDICATOR?

Nice 111 on SS bracelet ... but it's a strange looking 111h though. The movement looks more like pre-H series and the case is brush(?).

As much as I love the Davidsen (DSN) watches, I have grown to prefer the stock cases that come with regular CN 44mm Marinas. I'm not sure how to explain this (as this might be an objective opinion), but here's a pic to illustrate: The watch on the left is my PAM005 from DSN while the one on the right is a regular PAM111H from TWP. If you look carefully the lugs, you will see that the 111H has wider lugs viewing from the front. Compare these two to the pic of a gen Marina (e.g. google up "Panerai 111H" for shots in a variety of angles) and you'd find the the gens have wider lugs too. Also, edges of the 111H also look and feel sharper than the 005. But that doesn't mean I don't like DSN watches. For 005, I would recommend DSN version as the logo looks more accurate than the regular. For an 'H' sandwich dial, I'd prefer the factory regular. So, in summary, I do not agree that all DSN are the best. Some are better but some not. It depends on what you want. So do consider BOTH DSN and a modded regular (e.g. from TWP). Take some consideration and do a bit of research. You won't regret the homework done.

For some basic comparisons, www.paneristi.com is a good place to start. It has a reference page at http://www.paneristi.com/reference/vendome/index.html which can be helpful. Questions questions... manual or automatic winding? 40mm, 44mm, 45mm or 47mm? Black, brown or white dials? In my opinion, 'basic and reliable' will be a 44mm engined by a swiss 6497 manual wind with functional swan-neck, either a Luminor Base PAM112 (SS) or PAM176 (Ti), or a Luminor Marina PAM111 (SS) or PAM177 (Ti). If you like a 44mm with a logo, try a PAM000 (Base) or PAM005 (Marina). If you prefer a Radiomir, go for PAM183. Though not swiss movements, the automatics are not bad too. Automatics are mostly engined by Asian 7750 or 7753 movements. Ensure you ask for the new 28,800bps movements, which are more reliable. My advice? If you find that you like more than just one PAM, start planning for a collection. Don't get all now. Get one. Digest your love for it. See for yourself what you like about the watch other than just the look of it... the weight, the feel of it on your wrist, the 'power'. Learn more about it so you'd know better which PAM you'd like to get next.

I just found out something about this 187. You're right the markers are not screwed. But they're not glued either. In fact, they're welded onto the bezel. Or at least this was what I see on the marker "1" on th 15. Maybe this one dropped out and they weld it back? Can't really tell...

Nah. Was thinking more of getting a relume job. So there are other giveaways... Skinny date font. No AR. I think I'd take your advice. Leave it alone for now.

Got it! Now I've a new mod project

I'm a lazy collector. Until today, I still have not tested my watches to how accurate they are or how much power reserve. I don't care much about the time reserves since most of the time I wear the same watch for more than a few days. Approx. 3 watches a week. So that means whenever I change to wearing a different watch, I'm always restarting the watch with a few manual wind and set the time according to my phone or the laptop (which are synchronized). If it's a manual wind, I'd be winding twice everyday so no issue. If it's automatic, I haven't faced any problem with any rep except the Ingy Chrono. So I should count myself lucky that most of the reps I own, even the A7750 in the GSTs, are still in great condition.

So the bluish "1000" is good, right? Just made my day! Thanks. So what about the the lumed markers? Do your 187 have this metalic border around the markers? Does the gen has this border?

I wasn't quite sure which category I should place this thread... "General Discussion" (for my rep shopping experience), "The Panerai Area", or the "Flame-Free corner"... Wait, there isn't a flame-free corner to begin with. Nvm... Anyway, here's the story: Been away for a business trip to a place where internet was scarce and troublesome to find. Now I'm back, and I bring with me a short field report for rep shopping in Jakarta. Before my embarkation to Jakarta, I did a bit of research and found a place in the city to shop for reps. ITC Mangga Dua is one of the largest shopping area in the large 3rd world city. Not only does it hold most of the cheap stuffs for a great pleasurable shopping experience, it can be a great challenging place to hunt for treasures. Note that due to the popularity and the growing number of the Mangga Dua shops, there are newer shopping complexes built next to each other also named Mangga Dua. When you are directing the taxi driver for this place, make sure you tell him 'Mangga Dua Pasar Pagi', which Pasar Pagi means 'morning market'. It's the place famous in the region for rep watches. The old building is HUGE. Look out for the part of the interconnected complexes for the 'blok B' (blok=block in Indo). I was just roaming around and I found this shop on the first floor (No. 50) called "EURO watch" selling some reps. Nothing on the display looks good enough. You've to ask the shop guy to show you the good ones. He managed to get some 'better' PAMs but without the swan necks, so I asked for the automatic PAMs. The automatics are limited in selection, and most of the cyclops looked too shallow. In the end, I found myself looking a the 'Monster'... PAM 187 Sub. I asked for the price. He quoted me IDR 3.5 million (abt US$370). CRAZY! I hit a hard bargain directly down by 50% to IDR 1.2 million. The bargain went on for a while until my final offer was IDR 2 million, which he declined. I told him I give up. Don't want anymore. And started walking away. He called me back and offered IDR 2.7 million. I started walking away again and finally he agreed to IDR 2 million. YAY! $210 for a PAM 187! Never thought he'd agree! Living up the its nickname, the 187 is indeed a MONSTER! It's HUGE at 47mm, thicker than the fiddy and is super HEAVY! It's even heavier than my 'Metal Baby' 111H on SS bracelet!!! I LOVE IT Ok. Here's the question for owners of EL's and the Watchhonpo versions. I've read and seen the pics of the two amazing versions on Full Review of EL's PAM 187... and comparison with WatchHonpo version, ...many photos from different angles and different straps by V. I've compared the two versions to my newly acquired from JKT, and I noticed a big difference just by comparing the pics. How are the lumed markers on each of the two versions? The version I have seem to have glossy lume markers with metal rim around each marker. Is this the same on EL's or Watchhonpo versions? Any other differences are welcomed as well. Thanks

Much as an SS bracelet lover myself, some watches just do not belong with SS bracelets... e.g. Radiomir, Fiddy. Turning it around, try imagine wearing a sub on a leather strap...

It's still summer here... and will be summer for all round the year over here Some sunshine for my new 'Metal Baby' 111H

It goes something like: "Where can I find the best PAM rep for value?" Today, about a year later, though I have had only my 3rd PAM, I sure have learnt a great deal from the various forums.

I agree... Your pics of the Heavy Metal inspires me though I haven't got your photography skillz

I wanted to take pics of my new 111H so badly plus I'm currently outstationed, so did a makeshift light-box out of cardboard box. Took only 10 pics before I blew two light bulbs out. Out of these 10, I like only 4. Did some light/contrast and color adjustments on Photoshop. For your viewing pleasure and criticisms very much welcome. Photography experts, pls help me with what's wrong with these pics and why. I very much like to learn Thanks in advance

Try one of the refinishing pens for titanium/steel on the Bay.

However, it will not be easy to rep the back of the watch showing the faceplate and turning tourbillon of the P.2005 movement. The push-pin strap change system is probably easy to do (just follow how it was done for IWC), but overall the looks will be slightly different from the gen. Btw... WELCOME!

Now this thread started me thinking about fiddy over last night and today my opinion of the fiddy has changed. Though I still do not like the gold hands (which I plan to change to silver if I ever get one), the case and domed crystal has grown on me. That's mainly from the pics you posted and all the readings on this model... I've only one thing to say... in general about rep collecting: Why kill yourself with all the details? Suppose you are afraid of being called out by hardcore Risti, what are the chances that you'd meet one who knows Fiddy well? Suppose you do meet one, what are the chances that the risti knows Fiddy so well he/she can spot a fake within arms length, unless you take it off and show it to him/her in the face? The chances are slim. I notice the different definition of 'quality' in most rep forums. Some define 'quality' by closeness of details. Some by the specs it comes with (thick crown, movement type etc). Most by what they see on pics we see on the forum. What most of us seem to have neglected is the overall 'feel' of the rep as a watch. As long as the watch resembles a design that is pleasing to the eyes and serves the purpose (time telling) well, isn't that enough? From my experience with DSN, the finish of his watch is superb and in most cases better QC. Though some of his dials are wrong, e.g. wrong placement, wrong thickness of font, I find the finishes far better in person better than what I see in the pics. So why do we look for microscopic flaws and spend so much time and money to correct them? The answer is simple... we enjoy torturing ourselves in pure 'perfectionism' at lowest costs possible (lower than getting a gen, that is).